2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Special_Puppy]

Sorry to upset you, Nikola. I watched every game of the Minnesota series. When it was time to stop their 3rd quarter comeback in game 7, Jokic was passive. That turned out to be the most important stretch in that series.

He had 34 points, 19 rebounds, and 7 assists that game

He sure did, but he was MIA during the comeback in the 3rd which decided the series. He scored a bunch in the 4th, but the damage was done, Minnesota had gained the momentum in the game the game by then. If people here want to say hes an unstoppable force, a GOAT player, he's gotta step up during that run, not shrink and defer. Like imagine if prime Lebron lost in the second round, to an unaccomplished team, at home, and blew a 20 point second half lead in game 7 where he did nothing to try to stop the run. Heck many here like to say he was saved by Ray Allen in game 6 of the 2013 finals. LeBron had 32/11/10 in that game. If Jokic is having a "GOAT peak" which is flaoted on here all the time, disappearing during that comeback is unacceptable, no matter what his final stat line was.

I'm not sure why it matters when he scored the points unless he was doing so in garbage time which wasn't the case here. Points scored in the 3rd quarter are worth just as much as points scored in the 1st quarter

[MyTake_1]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.

I don't typically get involved in this sort of banter and I have never said one negative word about Shai.

I consider him a model any young player should follow, I consider him great and if he wins MVP I would never question it.
He is an intelligent, talented, disciplined, hard-working young man who should be a model for everyone.

But these incessant idiotic attacks on anything that has to do with Jokic just erk me, you don't need to put Jokic down to be Shai fan.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.

I don't typically get involved in this sort of banter and I have never said one negative word about Shai.

I consider him a model any young player should follow, I consider him great and if he wins MVP I would never question it.
He is an intelligent, talented, disciplined, hard-working young man who should be a model for everyone.

But these incessant idiotic attacks on anything that has to do with Jokic just erk me, you don't need to put Jokic down to be Shai fan.

And likewise, I don't really bash Jokic. I've said in THESE threads at various stretches this season that Jokic was better or took a lead in the MVP race (like last month prior to this 2 week SGA run). And I'm not talking specifically about you. I'm saying in general, the people who are insane Jokic fans and say basically nobody is close to him are problematic. It's just not honest at all. It's bad faith discussions.

[AleksandarN]

Why though? And why just last year did you CREATE A THREAD titled Jokic is not him after they went down 0-2 to Minnesota? It seemed you were thinking the same thing.....

I never said he cant create his own . Don’t lie man. And unlike some I call out players who are not playing up to their standards which he did later. So thanks for bringing up that thread. I don’t say dumb **** like you just posted. And I don’t mind calling out people who I am a fan of. It is called being balanced and not just a fan boy. So thanks bringing up the thread I made. You are easy work.

Well if he's "not him" doesn't that imply he has limitations haha? I'm not lying. You say you don't say dumb stuff, but you said he wasn't him, but argue fiercely if anyone like me calls out his shortcomings. So which is it. BTW that thread and your attempted recovery was all time bad embarrassing, don't dig deeper on it. I made some valid criticisms (just like you less than a year ago) and you chose to respond with the classic Billy Madison clip. Either counter and explain your logic or don't comment.

This what I said. Which was true at the time. In game 1 and 2. He was not up to his standards and I called it out. Why is it embarrassing calling out players you are fan of? I am not a Stan sounds like you are if you can’t understand that. Like I said I have no problem calling out players not playing up to their standards.

He is playing like it this series. We can talk about all of the injuries and not having an Allstar teammate but the problem is that he is not stepping up. This is the worst series I seen him play. He seems like he doesn’t care. He has no drive. Not aggressive at all on both ends of the floor. He has poor body language.

[AleksandarN]

Sorry to upset you, Nikola. I watched every game of the Minnesota series. When it was time to stop their 3rd quarter comeback in game 7, Jokic was passive. That turned out to be the most important stretch in that series.

He had 34 points, 19 rebounds, and 7 assists that game

He sure did, but he was MIA during the comeback in the 3rd which decided the series. He scored a bunch in the 4th, but the damage was done, Minnesota had gained the momentum in the game the game by then. If people here want to say hes an unstoppable force, a GOAT player, he's gotta step up during that run, not shrink and defer. Like imagine if prime Lebron lost in the second round, to an unaccomplished team, at home, and blew a 20 point second half lead in game 7 where he did nothing to try to stop the run. Heck many here like to say he was saved by Ray Allen in game 6 of the 2013 finals. LeBron had 32/11/10 in that game. If Jokic is having a "GOAT peak" which is flaoted on here all the time, disappearing during that comeback is unacceptable, no matter what his final stat line was.

Jokic scored 14pts on 50 percent shooting and 40 percent from 3 2 asts 2 rebs 1blk in the fourth while he didn’t rest at all in the second half. Jokic shot terribly from the 3 in the 3rd. Guess what he did this offseason he improved his shot to the point where he is 3rd in the league in 3 pt percentage this season. He keeps getting better every year. That is what makes him great

[AleksandarN]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.

I don't typically get involved in this sort of banter and I have never said one negative word about Shai.

I consider him a model any young player should follow, I consider him great and if he wins MVP I would never question it.
He is an intelligent, talented, disciplined, hard-working young man who should be a model for everyone.

But these incessant idiotic attacks on anything that has to do with Jokic just erk me, you don't need to put Jokic down to be Shai fan.

And likewise, I don't really bash Jokic. I've said in THESE threads at various stretches this season that Jokic was better or took a lead in the MVP race (like last month prior to this 2 week SGA run). And I'm not talking specifically about you. I'm saying in general, the people who are insane Jokic fans and say basically nobody is close to him are problematic. It's just not honest at all. It's bad faith discussions.

Bash Jokic? You just called him a horrible defender. Jokic not is a great defender like SGA but he isn’t horrible. So you are doing the same thing you criticize others of doing.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I don't typically get involved in this sort of banter and I have never said one negative word about Shai.

I consider him a model any young player should follow, I consider him great and if he wins MVP I would never question it.
He is an intelligent, talented, disciplined, hard-working young man who should be a model for everyone.

But these incessant idiotic attacks on anything that has to do with Jokic just erk me, you don't need to put Jokic down to be Shai fan.

And likewise, I don't really bash Jokic. I've said in THESE threads at various stretches this season that Jokic was better or took a lead in the MVP race (like last month prior to this 2 week SGA run). And I'm not talking specifically about you. I'm saying in general, the people who are insane Jokic fans and say basically nobody is close to him are problematic. It's just not honest at all. It's bad faith discussions.

Bash Jokic? You just called him a horrible defender. Jokic not is a great defender like SGA but he isn’t horrible. So you are doing the same thing you criticize others of doing.

Jokic isn't just not great though. He's among the absolute worst paint/rim defenders in the NBA as multiple charts recently showed. While defensive rebounding ends a possession and counts for something, it's not the same thing exactly as defending. This isn't a Steph Curry type scenario where he actually improved his defense to at least not be a huge liability. Jokic is VERY negative defensively.

So no, I'm not bashing him. I'm being objectively honest.

[AleksandarN]

And likewise, I don't really bash Jokic. I've said in THESE threads at various stretches this season that Jokic was better or took a lead in the MVP race (like last month prior to this 2 week SGA run). And I'm not talking specifically about you. I'm saying in general, the people who are insane Jokic fans and say basically nobody is close to him are problematic. It's just not honest at all. It's bad faith discussions.

Bash Jokic? You just called him a horrible defender. Jokic not is a great defender like SGA but he isn’t horrible. So you are doing the same thing you criticize others of doing.

Jokic isn't just not great though. He's among the absolute worst paint/rim defenders in the NBA as multiple charts recently showed. While defensive rebounding ends a possession and counts for something, it's not the same thing exactly as defending. This isn't a Steph Curry type scenario where he actually improved his defense to at least not be a huge liability. Jokic is VERY negative defensively.

So no, I'm not bashing him. I'm being objectively honest.

You said he was a horrible defender which he is not. So yes that bashing him when what you said wasn’t true. He is not a VERY negative defender. He is not a great defender I never said he was but he is not a negative defender as he does other things well. Don’t make it like he is an Enes Canter level of defender now that is a VERY negative defender.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Bash Jokic? You just called him a horrible defender. Jokic not is a great defender like SGA but he isn’t horrible. So you are doing the same thing you criticize others of doing.

Jokic isn't just not great though. He's among the absolute worst paint/rim defenders in the NBA as multiple charts recently showed. While defensive rebounding ends a possession and counts for something, it's not the same thing exactly as defending. This isn't a Steph Curry type scenario where he actually improved his defense to at least not be a huge liability. Jokic is VERY negative defensively.

So no, I'm not bashing him. I'm being objectively honest.

You said he was a horrible defender which he is not. So yes that bashing him when what you said wasn’t true. He is not a VERY negative defender. He is not a great defender I never said he was but he is not a negative defender as he does other things well. Don’t make it like he is an Enes Canter level of defender now that is a VERY negative defender.

Make a thread with a poll. Is Jokic a good, average, bad or very bad defender. Let's see what happens.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic isn't just not great though. He's among the absolute worst paint/rim defenders in the NBA as multiple charts recently showed. While defensive rebounding ends a possession and counts for something, it's not the same thing exactly as defending. This isn't a Steph Curry type scenario where he actually improved his defense to at least not be a huge liability. Jokic is VERY negative defensively.

So no, I'm not bashing him. I'm being objectively honest.

You said he was a horrible defender which he is not. So yes that bashing him when what you said wasn’t true. He is not a VERY negative defender. He is not a great defender I never said he was but he is not a negative defender as he does other things well. Don’t make it like he is an Enes Canter level of defender now that is a VERY negative defender.

Make a thread with a poll. Is Jokic a good, average, bad or very bad defender. Let's see what happens.

Go ahead no one’s stopping you. Also add in VERY negative defender as an option. Don’t chicken out. Since you said VERY negative defender since you mentioned it. No need for disclaimer. Just run a poll

[OkcSinceSGA]

You said he was a horrible defender which he is not. So yes that bashing him when what you said wasn’t true. He is not a VERY negative defender. He is not a great defender I never said he was but he is not a negative defender as he does other things well. Don’t make it like he is an Enes Canter level of defender now that is a VERY negative defender.

Make a thread with a poll. Is Jokic a good, average, bad or very bad defender. Let's see what happens.

Go ahead no one’s stopping you. Also add in VERY negative defender as an option. Don’t chicken out. Since you said VERY negative defender since you mentioned it. No need for disclaimer. Just run a poll

I changed the wording to "Very bad" instead of "very negative" for simplicity. I can't make threads anymore... so you'll have to start it. But sure if that matters put "VERY negative" instead of bad.

[hardenASG13]

He had 34 points, 19 rebounds, and 7 assists that game

He sure did, but he was MIA during the comeback in the 3rd which decided the series. He scored a bunch in the 4th, but the damage was done, Minnesota had gained the momentum in the game the game by then. If people here want to say hes an unstoppable force, a GOAT player, he's gotta step up during that run, not shrink and defer. Like imagine if prime Lebron lost in the second round, to an unaccomplished team, at home, and blew a 20 point second half lead in game 7 where he did nothing to try to stop the run. Heck many here like to say he was saved by Ray Allen in game 6 of the 2013 finals. LeBron had 32/11/10 in that game. If Jokic is having a "GOAT peak" which is flaoted on here all the time, disappearing during that comeback is unacceptable, no matter what his final stat line was.

Jokic scored 14pts on 50 percent shooting and 40 percent from 3 2 asts 2 rebs 1blk in the fourth while he didn’t rest at all in the second half. Jokic shot terribly from the 3 in the 3rd. Guess what he did this offseason he improved his shot to the point where he is 3rd in the league in 3 pt percentage this season. He keeps getting better every year. That is what makes him great

He's certainly stepped up his 3 point percentage. When I watch Denver, his 3s are generally wide open and all from the top of the key, with very few coming off the dribble or created for himself. It'll be interesting to see how he can counter against say an OKC if they take away those clean top of the key looks over the course of a series.

[AleksandarN]

Make a thread with a poll. Is Jokic a good, average, bad or very bad defender. Let's see what happens.

Go ahead no one’s stopping you. Also add in VERY negative defender as an option. Don’t chicken out. Since you said VERY negative defender since you mentioned it. No need for disclaimer. Just run a poll

I changed the wording to "Very bad" instead of "very negative" for simplicity. I can't make threads anymore... so you'll have to start it. But sure if that matters put "VERY negative" instead of bad.

No use VERY negative.

[hardenASG13]

He had 34 points, 19 rebounds, and 7 assists that game

He sure did, but he was MIA during the comeback in the 3rd which decided the series. He scored a bunch in the 4th, but the damage was done, Minnesota had gained the momentum in the game the game by then. If people here want to say hes an unstoppable force, a GOAT player, he's gotta step up during that run, not shrink and defer. Like imagine if prime Lebron lost in the second round, to an unaccomplished team, at home, and blew a 20 point second half lead in game 7 where he did nothing to try to stop the run. Heck many here like to say he was saved by Ray Allen in game 6 of the 2013 finals. LeBron had 32/11/10 in that game. If Jokic is having a "GOAT peak" which is flaoted on here all the time, disappearing during that comeback is unacceptable, no matter what his final stat line was.

Jokic scored 14pts on 50 percent shooting and 40 percent from 3 2 asts 2 rebs 1blk in the fourth while he didn’t rest at all in the second half. Jokic shot terribly from the 3 in the 3rd. Guess what he did this offseason he improved his shot to the point where he is 3rd in the league in 3 pt percentage this season. He keeps getting better every year. That is what makes him great

Yes, the quiet and passive 3rd quarter which decided the game is what I'm referencing though. I understand he did well in the 4th (if you've ever played in a basketball game, you understand what it does to a team mentally to come back from 20 down within 10 minutes, or blow a 20 point lead in 10 minutes). That game had slipped away by the 4th, which is my criticism based on what he didn't do when they were making the comeback (create his own offense, as his teammates were struggling, to stop the run). It's why I think it's fair to question if he's "him" in such scenarios. I haven't seen it when up against a team they aren't night and day better than (the whole 2023 playoff run).

[Whopper_Sr]

MVP to SGA, 2nd ring and FMVP for Jokic.

[hardenASG13]

I never said he cant create his own . Don’t lie man. And unlike some I call out players who are not playing up to their standards which he did later. So thanks for bringing up that thread. I don’t say dumb **** like you just posted. And I don’t mind calling out people who I am a fan of. It is called being balanced and not just a fan boy. So thanks bringing up the thread I made. You are easy work.

Well if he's "not him" doesn't that imply he has limitations haha? I'm not lying. You say you don't say dumb stuff, but you said he wasn't him, but argue fiercely if anyone like me calls out his shortcomings. So which is it. BTW that thread and your attempted recovery was all time bad embarrassing, don't dig deeper on it. I made some valid criticisms (just like you less than a year ago) and you chose to respond with the classic Billy Madison clip. Either counter and explain your logic or don't comment.

This what I said. Which was true at the time. In game 1 and 2. He was not up to his standards and I called it out. Why is it embarrassing calling out players you are fan of? I am not a Stan sounds like you are if you can’t understand that. Like I said I have no problem calling out players not playing up to their standards.

He is playing like it this series. We can talk about all of the injuries and not having an Allstar teammate but the problem is that he is not stepping up. This is the worst series I seen him play. He seems like he doesn’t care. He has no drive. Not aggressive at all on both ends of the floor. He has poor body language.

Lol I'm a grown up, I'm not a stan of any player. My main interest is gambling on and enjoying watching the games, and as such I follow basically every team. It's not embarrassing to call out players you are a fan of, and I respect it. The embarrassing part is starting a thread titled Jokic is not him, at the first point of adversity, when there was already an extremely active series thread to call out his poor play in games 1 and 2. On top of that, it was after you had fiercely attacked anyone all year who questioned his 2023 title run, just as you are doing now this year. I say I question his ability to create when he has to(such as when Minnesota was erasing a 20 point lead within 1 quarter on his home court in the second half of a game 7!) and you post the stock Billy Madison clip.

[AleksandarN]

Well if he's "not him" doesn't that imply he has limitations haha? I'm not lying. You say you don't say dumb stuff, but you said he wasn't him, but argue fiercely if anyone like me calls out his shortcomings. So which is it. BTW that thread and your attempted recovery was all time bad embarrassing, don't dig deeper on it. I made some valid criticisms (just like you less than a year ago) and you chose to respond with the classic Billy Madison clip. Either counter and explain your logic or don't comment.

This what I said. Which was true at the time. In game 1 and 2. He was not up to his standards and I called it out. Why is it embarrassing calling out players you are fan of? I am not a Stan sounds like you are if you can’t understand that. Like I said I have no problem calling out players not playing up to their standards.

He is playing like it this series. We can talk about all of the injuries and not having an Allstar teammate but the problem is that he is not stepping up. This is the worst series I seen him play. He seems like he doesn’t care. He has no drive. Not aggressive at all on both ends of the floor. He has poor body language.

Lol I'm a grown up, I'm not a stan of any player. My main interest is gambling on and enjoying watching the games, and as such I follow basically every team. It's not embarrassing to call out players you are a fan of, and I respect it. The embarrassing part is starting a thread titled Jokic is not him, at the first point of adversity, when there was already an extremely active series thread to call out his poor play in games 1 and 2. On top of that, it was after you had fiercely attacked anyone all year who questioned his 2023 title run, just as you are doing now this year. I say I question his ability to create when he has to(such as when Minnesota was erasing a 20 point lead within 1 quarter on his home court in the second half of a game 7!) and you post the stock Billy Madison clip.

Again where did he struggle to create shots. Like you says he shoots open threes. Why is that? Because defenses adjusts to his playmaking and how effective he creates for others. Now that he improved his shooting that makes him even more of effective three level scorer. He also shoots threes in people faces not all are because he is wide open. His ability to score in post is that not shot creation? Him shooting from the elbow isn’t that not shot creation. His off ball movement doesn’t that help in his shot creation. Tell what he struggles when it comes to shot creation?

[QPR]

Lol at Jokic not being able to create his own shot. He's probably the most devastating one on one scorer in the league

[Special_Puppy]

Lol at Jokic not being able to create his own shot. He's probably the most devastating one on one scorer in the league

I'd put SGA and Giannis over him, but besides them yeah

[Doctor MJ]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.

So I'll just say:

Jokic is my favorite player.
Your opinion is reasonable, and in fact I have Shai as my MVP.
So am I a Jokic homer?

If the answer is "no" because I'm not stubborn and hostile, then what you're saying is that homers are stubborn and hostile...which frankly rings true to me regardless of who they are homers of.

And of course if the answer is "yes", then only some Jokic homers are stubborn and hostile.

I think what you, and others, have experienced here is that once a player gets well represented in a thread like this, you're going to have some stubborn and hostile people. So Jokic now that he's been basically at least a top 2 MVP player now for a half-decade, is going to be well represented basically as a rule.

And in the defense of Jokic supporters: I would argue they didn't get like this until after he started winning MVPs, whereas supporters of some other players (Embiid, Luka, etc.) were like this well before that happened. Basically, among fanbases that became most hostile earliest in a player's career, the Jokic fans were actually more level-headed than many.

But not of this changes the fact that you feel harassed now, and seeing the posts, I completely understand why you feel that way. I'd like my fellow Jokic fans to chill.