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Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24

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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#541 » by brownbobcat » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:52 am

ForeverTFC wrote:But that analogy doesn't belong in this argument. The immediate context in your scenario requires that I maximize the chance of scoring right then; the variance matters in a discrete scenario like yours. Team building is not discreet; it's continuous in nature and the sum of the parts dictate returns over time.

Let's go through an exercise: let's say you have 5 picks and can trade each for a Brandon Ingram level player. Alternatively you can make all 5 picks with 10% chance that each leads to a player better than Ingram, 30% that it leads to a player like Ingram, and 60% chance that it's a player worse than ingram. Assume that a pick that give you a better player = +1 points, a similar pick = 0 points, and a pick worse than Ingram = -0.5 points to account for the outsized value of a superstar.

In the event that you trade all your picks, the value = 0. Then we can calculate the probability where the sum of the values > 0 if we keep all the picks and that tells us how often we "win" by taking the mystery box. The answer here is ~12% of the time, you end up with a better team if you keep all your picks.

Again, the answer to your question is clear as to why someone would choose Ingram over a mystery box in a continuous team building exercise.

Take your example to its logical conclusion. It would always be preferable to trade every draft pick for somebody slightly better that the average slot production. After all, expected value is the only thing that matters right? So in 2021, Toronto should have traded the #4 pick for somebody like Zach Lavine. And how would that have worked out?

The big hole in that logic is that doing slightly better than average, even after multiple iterations, only yields a result slightly better than average - i.e. 41-45 wins max. Is that a failure? Perhaps not technically, but it would be for me.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#542 » by ForeverTFC » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:00 am

brownbobcat wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:But that analogy doesn't belong in this argument. The immediate context in your scenario requires that I maximize the chance of scoring right then; the variance matters in a discrete scenario like yours. Team building is not discreet; it's continuous in nature and the sum of the parts dictate returns over time.

Let's go through an exercise: let's say you have 5 picks and can trade each for a Brandon Ingram level player. Alternatively you can make all 5 picks with 10% chance that each leads to a player better than Ingram, 30% that it leads to a player like Ingram, and 60% chance that it's a player worse than ingram. Assume that a pick that give you a better player = +1 points, a similar pick = 0 points, and a pick worse than Ingram = -0.5 points to account for the outsized value of a superstar.

In the event that you trade all your picks, the value = 0. Then we can calculate the probability where the sum of the values > 0 if we keep all the picks and that tells us how often we "win" by taking the mystery box. The answer here is ~12% of the time, you end up with a better team if you keep all your picks.

Again, the answer to your question is clear as to why someone would choose Ingram over a mystery box in a continuous team building exercise.

Take your example to its logical conclusion. It would always be preferable to trade every draft pick for somebody slightly better that the average slot production. After all, expected value is the only thing that matters right? So in 2021, Toronto should have traded the #4 pick for somebody like Zach Lavine. And how would that have worked out?

The big hole in that logic is that doing slightly better than average, even after multiple iterations, only yields a result slightly better than average - i.e. 41-45 wins max. Is that a failure? Perhaps not technically, but it would be for me.


What I was trying to illustrate is how discrete your situation is vs the continuous nature of team building.

If you're starting a rebuild with nothing, your risk tolerance is much higher and you're more likely to bet on the upside. As you gain more conviction in what you currently have, your risk tolerance goes down. It's partly why contending teams are much more likely to trade a pick. In our situation, the FO believes they have a star in Barnes. In that scenario, taking the slightly better than average yields more than the mystery box. Also, let's be clear that they didn't trade all their mystery boxes, they had 3 over the next 2 years and traded 1 of them for a more known return.

I'm currently on the side of Barnes never becoming a star, so I obviously wanted to keep the pick. But if the FO believes Barnes is going to become a star (as they keep saying), then it's completely logical to me why they would make this trade. That's all I was trying to say. Not that I would do it but rather why it's totally reasonable why some would.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#543 » by brownbobcat » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:10 am

ForeverTFC wrote:What I was trying to illustrate is how discrete your situation is vs the continuous nature of team building.

If you're starting a rebuild with nothing, your risk tolerance is much higher and you're more likely to bet on the upside. As you gain more conviction in what you currently have, your risk tolerance goes down. It's partly why contending teams are much more likely to trade a pick. In our situation, the FO believes they have a star in Barnes. In that scenario, taking the slightly better than average yields more than the mystery box. Also, let's be clear that they didn't trade all their mystery boxes, they had 3 over the next 2 years and traded 1 of them for a more known return.

I'm currently on the side of Barnes never becoming a star, so I obviously wanted to keep the pick. But if the FO believes Barnes is going to become a star (as they keep saying), then it's completely logical to me why they would make this trade. That's all I was trying to say. Not that I would do it but rather why it's totally reasonable why some would.

This is the rub. Look, if we had Wemby then this would all be moot and I wouldn't waste any time on discussing relative value of picks vs. useful productive players. But I look at this roster and I don't see very good reasons for that optimism. I think Barnes will be very solid, might even make another All Star team, but I don't think he can be the best player on a perennial 50+ win squad unless the rest of that roster was stacked.

Which team has more talent?

2025:Ingram/IQ/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl
OR
2023:Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes/Poeltl
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#544 » by DreamTeam09 » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:18 am

This team is built thru the draft and trades. We will have 3 homegrown lottery picks and another in the top 20. Advocating for tanking yrs in advance is just selfish or narrow minded or being disingenuous to the Raptors organization

Either way s/o to BI.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#545 » by DG88 » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:25 am

At the end of the day we brought in talent through the door. That's what you need in a rebuild. Whether that's through draft picks, trades or a combination of both. We got a former 2nd overall pick onto this team who is a proven scorer. The only questions I had was the contract and health. Contract works for me, now the health part will be the hardest part.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#546 » by mtcan » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:28 am

As I said before...the Pelicans literally did not have a physical therapist on staff until 2023...tells you all you need to know about that poverty franchise. BI will be better taken care of in Toronto. Hopefully that improves his attendance.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#547 » by Scase » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:46 am

Appostis wrote:
bon wrote:
Scase wrote:And why are we excluding this season?

Because he got undercut in the air which something anyone would get injured by



Barnes is injury prone for getting elbowed in the eye/broken face to some people.

BI has played under the average games played if you include this year, but just slightly.

Barnes has played 84% of his eligible career games with both a season ending broken hand AND a broken orbital bone.
Ingram since his sophomore season has played in 68% of his eligible games. He has had 8 years of missing a significant portion of his games. He has had a single season out of nine where he played a significant amount of games.

Please don't be obtuse for no reason.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#548 » by Pointgod » Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:45 am

mtcan wrote:As I said before...the Pelicans literally did not have a physical therapist on staff until 2023...tells you all you need to know about that poverty franchise. BI will be better taken care of in Toronto. Hopefully that improves his attendance.


Ingram played 59 and 52 games with the Lakers after playing 79 games his first season. Since then he’s consistently been in the 50 to 60 game range. There’s definitely a risk of injury with him that can’t be just blamed on New Orleans
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#549 » by Pointgod » Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:48 am

brownbobcat wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:What I was trying to illustrate is how discrete your situation is vs the continuous nature of team building.

If you're starting a rebuild with nothing, your risk tolerance is much higher and you're more likely to bet on the upside. As you gain more conviction in what you currently have, your risk tolerance goes down. It's partly why contending teams are much more likely to trade a pick. In our situation, the FO believes they have a star in Barnes. In that scenario, taking the slightly better than average yields more than the mystery box. Also, let's be clear that they didn't trade all their mystery boxes, they had 3 over the next 2 years and traded 1 of them for a more known return.

I'm currently on the side of Barnes never becoming a star, so I obviously wanted to keep the pick. But if the FO believes Barnes is going to become a star (as they keep saying), then it's completely logical to me why they would make this trade. That's all I was trying to say. Not that I would do it but rather why it's totally reasonable why some would.

This is the rub. Look, if we had Wemby then this would all be moot and I wouldn't waste any time on discussing relative value of picks vs. useful productive players. But I look at this roster and I don't see very good reasons for that optimism. I think Barnes will be very solid, might even make another All Star team, but I don't think he can be the best player on a perennial 50+ win squad unless the rest of that roster was stacked.

Which team has more talent?

2025:Ingram/IQ/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl
OR
2023:Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes/Poeltl


Easily the second team by evidence that the 3 guys we traded are all contributing to winning teams that are top 4 in their conferences. Even then the second team played like **** because the pieces didn’t fit and I still don’t think all of the pieces with our team now fit.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#550 » by Appostis » Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:57 am

Scase wrote:
Appostis wrote:
bon wrote:Because he got undercut in the air which something anyone would get injured by



Barnes is injury prone for getting elbowed in the eye/broken face to some people.

BI has played under the average games played if you include this year, but just slightly.

Barnes has played 84% of his eligible career games with both a season ending broken hand AND a broken orbital bone.
Ingram since his sophomore season has played in 68% of his eligible games. He has had 8 years of missing a significant portion of his games. He has had a single season out of nine where he played a significant amount of games.

Please don't be obtuse for no reason.


With the average games played being in played is 70-71%(average 23.9 missed games a season) for star players... He slightly below the average.

Considering the history and reputation of the pelicans medical team.. :noway:



https://www.nba.com/news/nba-sends-data-load-management-study
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#551 » by ontnut » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:05 am

bballsparkin wrote:
ontnut wrote:
xAIRNESSx wrote:Masai's lost his touch.

Should've offered him no more than $60M/3 years.

So...pay him less than the Dillon Brooks contract? :roll:


check your sarcasm detector; it's broke. 8-)

Unfortunately, it's REAL hard to tell these days lol...some WILD takes on this board.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#552 » by YogurtProducer » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:08 am

Duffman100 wrote::lol: The ability to **** on absolutely everything, over and over again... then make the claim you aren't negative, truly is incredible.

22 and-1’s and counting…. But it’s the rest of us who are out of touch, probably.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#553 » by YogurtProducer » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:12 am

nikster wrote:
Scase wrote:
nikster wrote:Something that only 40% of the very best prospects in the world can do is not impressive? If you don't think that's impressive your gonna be very disappointed with he vast majority of lottery picks you seem to value so highly

This isn't like a 1 in 100 chance we're talking about here, he's a 2nd OA pick, he SHOULD be making an all star team. Should I be impressed when a 1st OA pick isn't bad too? Like come on man, expectations are baked into things, it is impressive seeing someone like FVV/Siakam make an ASG, that is quite literally defying the odds. But we're talking about something that is slightly less reliable than a coin flip here.

If he made multiple ASGs, yeah, that would be impressive. But plenty of mediocre players have made single all star games in their careers, I would hope a 2nd OA pick could manage at least 1. I guess I have higher standards.

Just another thing to add about the odds for a second round pick. In the last 25 years, only three 2nd overalls picks (Durant, Morant and Aldridge) have made multiple all star games. Ingram only needs one more to join that group and hes just entering hisi prime

That’s wild. It’s so wild it seems fake :lol:
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#554 » by YogurtProducer » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:15 am

brownbobcat wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:What I was trying to illustrate is how discrete your situation is vs the continuous nature of team building.

If you're starting a rebuild with nothing, your risk tolerance is much higher and you're more likely to bet on the upside. As you gain more conviction in what you currently have, your risk tolerance goes down. It's partly why contending teams are much more likely to trade a pick. In our situation, the FO believes they have a star in Barnes. In that scenario, taking the slightly better than average yields more than the mystery box. Also, let's be clear that they didn't trade all their mystery boxes, they had 3 over the next 2 years and traded 1 of them for a more known return.

I'm currently on the side of Barnes never becoming a star, so I obviously wanted to keep the pick. But if the FO believes Barnes is going to become a star (as they keep saying), then it's completely logical to me why they would make this trade. That's all I was trying to say. Not that I would do it but rather why it's totally reasonable why some would.

This is the rub. Look, if we had Wemby then this would all be moot and I wouldn't waste any time on discussing relative value of picks vs. useful productive players. But I look at this roster and I don't see very good reasons for that optimism. I think Barnes will be very solid, might even make another All Star team, but I don't think he can be the best player on a perennial 50+ win squad unless the rest of that roster was stacked.

Which team has more talent?

2025:Ingram/IQ/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl
OR
2023:Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes/Poeltl

It’s closer than you wanna admit, that’s for sure. 2025 is younger, cheaper, and has more depth and future assets associated with it.

We saw the bottom team play… 25 games together? So I don’t know what you’re trying to even prove. That bottom team was an improvement over that same core that won 48 games without a center, so who knows what it would’ve won with a full year of Jak.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#555 » by ForeverTFC » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:29 am

brownbobcat wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:What I was trying to illustrate is how discrete your situation is vs the continuous nature of team building.

If you're starting a rebuild with nothing, your risk tolerance is much higher and you're more likely to bet on the upside. As you gain more conviction in what you currently have, your risk tolerance goes down. It's partly why contending teams are much more likely to trade a pick. In our situation, the FO believes they have a star in Barnes. In that scenario, taking the slightly better than average yields more than the mystery box. Also, let's be clear that they didn't trade all their mystery boxes, they had 3 over the next 2 years and traded 1 of them for a more known return.

I'm currently on the side of Barnes never becoming a star, so I obviously wanted to keep the pick. But if the FO believes Barnes is going to become a star (as they keep saying), then it's completely logical to me why they would make this trade. That's all I was trying to say. Not that I would do it but rather why it's totally reasonable why some would.

This is the rub. Look, if we had Wemby then this would all be moot and I wouldn't waste any time on discussing relative value of picks vs. useful productive players. But I look at this roster and I don't see very good reasons for that optimism. I think Barnes will be very solid, might even make another All Star team, but I don't think he can be the best player on a perennial 50+ win squad unless the rest of that roster was stacked.

Which team has more talent?

2025:Ingram/IQ/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl
OR
2023:Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes/Poeltl


The bottom team is clearly better, but are we just going to ignore the fact that the bottom team played close to ~.600 ball with no training camp and a mid-season shuffle? Regardless, comparing the 2 is irrelevant: the first team is much younger, incomplete and - most importantly - not a tax team. I also disagree on the fit with the poster below you: IQ/Branes/Ingram is a pretty good fit on paper IF ingram can play the role of a primary scorer. With that said, yes I am concerned that we have bet too much and too early on Barnes.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#556 » by ForeverTFC » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:41 am

YogurtProducer wrote:
nikster wrote:
Scase wrote:This isn't like a 1 in 100 chance we're talking about here, he's a 2nd OA pick, he SHOULD be making an all star team. Should I be impressed when a 1st OA pick isn't bad too? Like come on man, expectations are baked into things, it is impressive seeing someone like FVV/Siakam make an ASG, that is quite literally defying the odds. But we're talking about something that is slightly less reliable than a coin flip here.

If he made multiple ASGs, yeah, that would be impressive. But plenty of mediocre players have made single all star games in their careers, I would hope a 2nd OA pick could manage at least 1. I guess I have higher standards.

Just another thing to add about the odds for a second round pick. In the last 25 years, only three 2nd overalls picks (Durant, Morant and Aldridge) have made multiple all star games. Ingram only needs one more to join that group and hes just entering hisi prime

That’s wild. It’s so wild it seems fake :lol:


For some reason, picks 3, 4, and sometimes 5 depending on the measure chosen have historically outperformed pick 2 on average. Even more random, pick 9 seems to crush other lottery picks outside the top 4-5.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#557 » by Tha Cynic » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:50 am

So Darko said Ingram may not play at all this season. Do we still need to go on and on when it’s clear we are tanking, and adding a 23 PPG on above average TS%, for a first round pick that will be in the 20s most likely?

We were never going to lose for multiple seasons. Fans aren’t going to sit around and watch that crap for multiple seasons and it’s a terrible way to build a team when you’re relying on charity rather than intelligence.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24 

Post#558 » by Darkseid » Thu Feb 13, 2025 5:58 am

Maybe BI faked injuries in NO because playing for that franchise sucks. I'd call in sick if I had to work there too.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#559 » by brownbobcat » Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:20 am

YogurtProducer wrote:It’s closer than you wanna admit, that’s for sure. 2025 is younger, cheaper, and has more depth and future assets associated with it.

We saw the bottom team play… 25 games together? So I don’t know what you’re trying to even prove. That bottom team was an improvement over that same core that won 48 games without a center, so who knows what it would’ve won with a full year of Jak.

It's not meant to be rhetorical or a gotcha question. The point is that the 2023 core was at least as good but still not good enough to keep together as a tax team. That was the FO's assessment, not mine. If they really thought that was a 50-win core, then they should have kept it together and/or found a way to dump Flynn/OPJ.
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Re: Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) 

Post#560 » by billy_hoyle » Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:32 am

ForeverTFC wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:What I was trying to illustrate is how discrete your situation is vs the continuous nature of team building.

If you're starting a rebuild with nothing, your risk tolerance is much higher and you're more likely to bet on the upside. As you gain more conviction in what you currently have, your risk tolerance goes down. It's partly why contending teams are much more likely to trade a pick. In our situation, the FO believes they have a star in Barnes. In that scenario, taking the slightly better than average yields more than the mystery box. Also, let's be clear that they didn't trade all their mystery boxes, they had 3 over the next 2 years and traded 1 of them for a more known return.

I'm currently on the side of Barnes never becoming a star, so I obviously wanted to keep the pick. But if the FO believes Barnes is going to become a star (as they keep saying), then it's completely logical to me why they would make this trade. That's all I was trying to say. Not that I would do it but rather why it's totally reasonable why some would.

This is the rub. Look, if we had Wemby then this would all be moot and I wouldn't waste any time on discussing relative value of picks vs. useful productive players. But I look at this roster and I don't see very good reasons for that optimism. I think Barnes will be very solid, might even make another All Star team, but I don't think he can be the best player on a perennial 50+ win squad unless the rest of that roster was stacked.

Which team has more talent?

2025:Ingram/IQ/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl
OR
2023:Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes/Poeltl


The bottom team is clearly better, but are we just going to ignore the fact that the bottom team played close to ~.600 ball with no training camp and a mid-season shuffle? Regardless, comparing the 2 is irrelevant: the first team is much younger, incomplete and - most importantly - not a tax team. I also disagree on the fit with the poster below you: IQ/Branes/Ingram is a pretty good fit on paper IF ingram can play the role of a primary scorer. With that said, yes I am concerned that we have bet too much and too early on Barnes.


I don't think the bottom team is clearly better. It might be, but it had clear over lap and chemistry issues.

The 2025 team doesn't have three forwards (incl two PFs starting).

The 2025/26 team will also have 3 recent lotto picks (Ochai, Dick, and MOST importantly the 2025 1st).

It also has a few more quality young bench guys in Walter, Mogbo, Shead and potentially Battle.

The 2023 team was older and capped out in mediocrity. The 2025 team took a step back to gain assets and tank.

That asset gain bears out in the depth and the likely high lotto 2025 pick.

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