2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Manimal]

Jokic's VORP: 7.2
SGA's VORP: 6.2

The rest of Denver's roster combined VORP: 3.3
The rest of OKC's roster combined VORP: 9.3

Denver's players with a VORP of at least 0.5: 6
OKC's players with a VORP of at least 0.5: 11

Denver's players with a VORP of at least 0.1: 9
OKC's players with a VORP of at least 0.1: 14

OKC players with a Box Plus/Minus of 1.0 or higher: 11
Denver players with a Box Plus/Minus of 1.0 or higher: Jokic

OKC players with a WS/48 of .150 or higher: 10
Denver players with a WS/48 of .150 or higher: Jokic

[Exp0sed]

my two cents on the: "ain't even close" debate is that this statement is obviously hyperbolic but it isn't THAT close either..

the OKC are the best team in the NBA. they have a leauge leading record and a league leading defense, whose currently the best defense statisitically in NBA history basically and also the highest SRS team

they're doing most of their damage on the defensive end and while it's true they are also 6th offensively, some of that is also tied to their insane defense,record breaking deflections and the dominant way in which they produce opponents turnovers. a defense into offense kind of thing, they're 5th or 6th in transition points too.

their coach and FO are really breaking the paradigm and are using personnel and tactics in a very innovative way. this is the new paradigm, the adjustment to the pace and space era. "Thinking Basketball" made a great video about this angle a couple of weeks ago, a good watch imo for those who haven't:

Watch on YouTube

SGA is def a part of these schemes but he isn't integral to their defense in any way (as evidenced by the team techinically being slightly better defensively with him off the court)

he's having a tremendous and historic season and he'll win the MVP because the OKC are winning 65 games and he's by far their best player, not to mention his cast (and coach) being so underrated - he gets more credit for it than he should (slightly)

with that said, he's not that close individually to Jokic thus far. we can quibble about whether it's the same tier or not but while it's def hyperbolic (and incorrect) to argue that "it ain't even close" - it's not particulary close either...

and again, i'm talking about whose having the better season individually NOT about whose the MVP. the MVP award has always had a team component to it and with it factored in - SGA is currently the MVP but that doesn't mean they're neck to neck individually, they aren't.

[BigGargamel]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.

"Arguably"

There is no "arguably". Jokic is absolutely the best player in the world.

SGA will probably win MVP, because of the team record. Sure, he deserves it because of that. Voted MVP and best player are not the same thing.

There is just no way SGA is as good of a player as Jokic. Zero. It's just not true.

[Castle Black]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Special_Puppy]

Shai’s aura petrified the Heat in the 4th quarter

[canada_dry]

Yeaaah. Murrays hasnt been much better as the season has gone on. Jokic has no star help. Yep. 55 points is nothing.

[Special_Puppy]

Yeaaah. Murrays hasnt been much better as the season has gone on. Jokic has no star help. Yep. 55 points is nothing.

Murray’s advanced stats this season are comparable to Cam Johnson’s

[Special_Puppy]

Yeaaah. Murrays hasnt been much better as the season has gone on. Jokic has no star help. Yep. 55 points is nothing.

Where do you think Murray ranks in the league this season?

[Optms]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.

"Arguably"

There is no "arguably". Jokic is absolutely the best player in the world.

SGA will probably win MVP, because of the team record. Sure, he deserves it because of that. Voted MVP and best player are not the same thing.

There is just no way SGA is as good of a player as Jokic. Zero. It's just not true.

It's actually closer than you believe because defense matters and Shai is one of the best defenders at his position, Jokic is no where close on that end. OKC is elite on offense and defense and Shai literally contributes to both sides of the ball at an elite level.

You can believe Jokic is better but to say "SGA is not as good of a player as Jokic" just proves his point. Homer goggles on max. Defense matters. And it's why Wemby will eventually surpass both these guys in the near future and why he currently ranks in the top 10 in just year 2.

[OkcSinceSGA]

my two cents on the: "ain't even close" debate is that this statement is obviously hyperbolic but it isn't THAT close either..

the OKC are the best team in the NBA. they have a leauge leading record and a league leading defense, whose currently the best defense statisitically in NBA history basically and also the highest SRS team

they're doing most of their damage on the defensive end and while it's true they are also 6th offensively, some of that is also tied to their insane defense,record breaking deflections and the dominant way in which they produce opponents turnovers. a defense into offense kind of thing, they're 5th or 6th in transition points too.

their coach and FO are really breaking the paradigm and are using personnel and tactics in a very innovative way. this is the new paradigm, the adjustment to the pace and space era. "Thinking Basketball" made a great video about this angle a couple of weeks ago, a good watch imo for those who haven't:

Watch on YouTube

SGA is def a part of these schemes but he isn't integral to their defense in any way (as evidenced by the team techinically being slightly better defensively with him off the court)

he's having a tremendous and historic season and he'll win the MVP because the OKC are winning 65 games and he's by far their best player, not to mention his cast (and coach) being so underrated - he gets more credit for it than he should (slightly)

with that said, he's not that close individually to Jokic thus far. we can quibble about whether it's the same tier or not but while it's def hyperbolic (and incorrect) to argue that "it ain't even close" - it's not particulary close either...

and again, i'm talking about whose having the better season individually NOT about whose the MVP. the MVP award has always had a team component to it and with it factored in - SGA is currently the MVP but that doesn't mean they're neck to neck individually, they aren't.

Some false dilemmas in there. For example SGA not being the most important piece defensively does not mean he’s not having an outstanding defensive year while Jokic is a total no show on that end. Individually they are neck to neck and literally every single catch all metric shows that for a reason.


I’d say Jokic is better just because he’s more proven, especially with a ring. But tier wise they are together and SGA is a worthy competitor individually with or without his teammates defense or the record.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Jokic homers are incredibly stubborn and hostile. It's very cult like. It's okay to disagree.... and say Jokic is the best. But ya'll gotta chill with comments like "not even close" etc. OKC and SGA homers including me will readily admit Jokic is a deserving player and arguably the best player on the planet. Yet the Jokic homers can't seem to break their delusion and admit it's a competitive, legitimate battle.

Like tell me how my opinion isn't reasonable? I have said numerous times that THIS ONE SEASON they are in the same tier, flip flopping the MVP race multiple times already... but that overall until SGA proves himself in the playoffs more, Jokic can be considered greater. But even saying Jokic has a competitor for one singular season so far is somehow insulting lol.

"Arguably"

There is no "arguably". Jokic is absolutely the best player in the world.

SGA will probably win MVP, because of the team record. Sure, he deserves it because of that. Voted MVP and best player are not the same thing.

There is just no way SGA is as good of a player as Jokic. Zero. It's just not true.

It's actually closer than you believe because defense matters and Shai is one of the best defenders at his position, Jokic is no where close on that end. OKC is elite on offense and defense and Shai literally contributes to both sides of the ball at an elite level.

You can believe Jokic is better but to say "SGA is not as good of a player as Jokic" just proves his point. Homer goggles on max. Defense matters. And it's why Wemby will eventually surpass both these guys in the near future and why he currently ranks in the top 10 in just year 2.

Those two posts were textbook posts about what I’m saying. It’s disrespectful to the game of basketball what some of these posters say.

[Black star]

Jokic's VORP: 7.2
SGA's VORP: 6.2

You know, it's hilarious because I posted earlier the reasons why a player like Jokic is overestimated in a stat like BPM due to their methodology for calculating big's value in regards to assists and defensive value.

Now I look up VORP and find out it doesn't even have its own methodology for player value, it's just a manipulation of BPM as the base stat to create a new value.

So BPM and VORP are both flawed in favor of Jokic and people still blindly try and use these stats as some kind of discussion ender.

[Exp0sed]

Some false dilemmas in there. For example SGA not being the most important piece defensively does not mean he’s not having an outstanding defensive year while Jokic is a total no show on that end. Individually they are neck to neck and literally every single catch all metric shows that for a reason.


I’d say Jokic is better just because he’s more proven, especially with a ring. But tier wise they are together and SGA is a worthy competitor individually with or without his teammates defense or the record.

that's a fair take. fwiw, I meant tiers of MVP season not as players overall.

SGA is def more than a worthy competitor individually but I do think Jokic does have some individual gap this season, at least per game. SGA did play a few more games so that makes up for it and he's certainly still leading the race and very unlikely to be dethroned by season's end imo

[Sgt Major]

You can't say that Jokic and SGA are in the same tier and then call Nuggets fans insufferable.

No one is in Jokic's tier.

[scrabbarista]

Nuggets are on an eight game win streak, winning their last six by an average of 19.3 points.

Last night's minutes:

Zeke Nnaji - 37
Christian Braun - 45
Julian Strawther - 25
Jalen Pickett - 29
DeAndre Jordan - 12
Dario Saric - 8
Hunter Tyson - 6

The bench scored 3 points in 55 minutes, and three starters combined for 102 points

Strange times.

[_NoMas]

Nuggets are on an eight game win streak, winning their last six by an average of 19.3 points.

Last night's minutes:

Zeke Nnaji - 37
Christian Braun - 45
Julian Strawther - 25
Jalen Pickett - 29
DeAndre Jordan - 12
Dario Saric - 8
Hunter Tyson - 6

The bench scored 3 points in 55 minutes, and three starters combined for 102 points

Strange times.

To be fair they were missing 4 key rotation players. So a lot of the normal bench was starting

[scrabbarista]

Jokic has been so good this season that last night he had

26/15/10/2/0/4 on .600 TS%, and his season PER went down from 33.6 to 33.4.

I think his WS/48 may have actually gone up, though, which tells me that if the team keeps winning, he could conceivably set the all-time records for PER, WS/48, and BPM this season.

[bstein14]

There's no one more valuable to their team's success than Jokic. I don't think he's going to win it for a fourth time. But he truly is in a tier of his own and this is his best season yet.

If Jokic is able to elevate his team to the #2 seed in the West and finish top 3 in PPG, RPG, APG and 3pt% without another all-star I don't see how even the OKC SGA fans could honestly feel like SGA is more deserving.

[GSWFan1994]

From my point of view, the only reason Jokic doesn't win is in case of a possible/probable voter fatigue.

All things considered, the guy's having a legendary run, even topping his previous seasons.

[bstein14]

From my point of view, the only reason Jokic doesn't win is in case of a possible/probable voter fatigue.

All things considered, the guy's having a legendary run, even topping his previous seasons.

Statisically Jokic is far ahead, but I think SGA had a legitimate case for being the rightful winner of MVP if the Nuggets finish in the 6th/7th/8th spot in the West... because historically winning (finishing top 2 in your conference) and stats have both been super important. That said, if Jokic gets the 2nd seed for the Nuggets and SGA wins when the stats are so overwhelming favoring Jokic its 100% a voter fatigue situation.