Grade the '25 Trade Deadline Moves

[The Consiglieri]

Jared Butler aka "Too Old" has 16,4,4 with no turns tonight.

He's going to go in another long line of good players that the Gizzards traded for nothing.

The Jared Butler situation was similar to the Gafford situation. He is a good young role player, but he will become an unrestricted free agent before we enter our competitive window. He was destined to depart for nothing via free agency so it made sense to try and turn him into something that still has value to us 3 or 4 years down the road.

This is what I heard reported on one of those sites as well. That essentially he would leave on a free in the summer, and we really had no sensible way to keep him after the '24-'25 contract wrapped. We would have to overpay him by orders of magnitude to retain him, and it was flat out impossible to do based on how he was originally acquired and signed. So the idea, at least according to, i think it was an athletic piece or someone else, that we had found this diamond and we could retain him long term and make him a key piece was always illusory. i think the same applies to Champaigne too.

Apparently, Butler was never going to stick around beyond April '25, so the dream of retaining found money in him simply wasn't possible due to the vagaries of NBA contracts and cap status yada yada.

[dobrojim]

Re trading 3 2nds for a first

On the plus side, if we kept those picks
we couldn't use them all as active players.

Also, this goes back years to a discussion re
the value of first vs seconds. Someone posted
that 1sts were overvalued and 2nds undervalued
with the reason being 1sts get guaranteed money
and seconds do not. You can stash 2nds.

Obviously all else being equal, it's best to have
the choice of everyone in the pool rather than
the players left after other teams pick.

Or maybe my information is out of date as far as
the rules go. I am aware there have been some changes.

[gambitx777]

We've had nothing but respect able games after the deadline.

Sent from my SM-S926U1 using RealGM mobile app

This fact makes me happy, but I have this annoying voice in the back of my head saying: We started to play better once Alex got hurt.

Its amazing what competent center play will do...

I mean idk I wanna see how he plays with out Kuz his defence is good and he did better when Kuz was out. I think he needs time but I think he's gonna be ok. This teams playing hard and it's spirits are lifted !

Sent from my SM-S926U1 using RealGM mobile app

[leswizards]

I can’t believe people are even still discussing this. The wizard fleeced Milwaukee. Kyle’s ws/48 the past season and a half for the wizards were 0.004 & -0.069. It has only been 4 games with Milwaukee, but his ws/48 is -0.002.

[gambitx777]

That air ball was bad lol. Even if we only got like half a first for him technically I consider a swap and a rookie first rounder half a first but we got off money and it's possible Middleton opts out and saves us 30 million. I doubt he opts out but he could if I team wants to give him a full 4 year MLE.

Sent from my SM-S926U1 using RealGM mobile app

[DCZards]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

[closg00]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Kuz also led the Bucks in minutes played, no-doubt he will fair better with a more experienced starting line-up, Bucks fans must be happy.

[penbeast0]

We've had nothing but respect able games after the deadline.

Sent from my SM-S926U1 using RealGM mobile app

This fact makes me happy, but I have this annoying voice in the back of my head saying: We started to play better once Alex got hurt.

Its amazing what competent center play will do...

I mean idk I wanna see how he plays with out Kuz his defence is good and he did better when Kuz was out. I think he needs time but I think he's gonna be ok. This teams playing hard and it's spirits are lifted !

Sent from my SM-S926U1 using RealGM mobile app

Sarr is still a skinny 19 year old kid. He isn't capable of defending NBA centers even though we've been using him there (as a deliberate tank and development move) and almost every center he faces has a strong game against him. And, we don't care. We care that he learns to play the game, either as a C or as a PF like JJJ whose game he most strongly resembles.

[pcbothwel]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Im sure he'll have some nights like that, but I really dont want this to turn into sour grapes from people.
The same ones who comment in the Deni trade two weeks ago after a great game against the Suns, went oddly silent the last 10 days after he put up an abysmal stat line over the last 5 games.
Or after Jared Butler looks thoroughly mediocre with Philly.
Or the same people who thought including Jordan Goodwin in the Beal trade would be a huge loss.

[Kanyewest]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Im sure he'll have some nights like that, but I really dont want this to turn into sour grapes from people.
The same ones who comment in the Deni trade two weeks ago after a great game against the Suns, went oddly silent the last 10 days after he put up an abysmal stat line over the last 5 games.
Or after Jared Butler looks thoroughly mediocre with Philly.
Or the same people who thought including Jordan Goodwin in the Beal trade would be a huge loss.

Deni's performance over his last 10 is fine - he's had a couple of stinkers but still looks like a good player.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/avdija-last-10-game

[The Consiglieri]

The only area for sour grapes is if there was indeed an offer of 2 firsts in '24, which feels very vague and clouded in the mists of time, some are completely convinced the offer was 1 first, which makes zero sense to me (no better than Gafford, really?), others say 2 firsts, and maybe it was something in-between, I have no idea. My #1 priority would have been the 2 picks if that was on offer, but getting an upside volatility, ceiling prospect projected from the mid teens to the mid 40's depending upon the source and a pick swap from a team that likely will need to tank for that swap year (I'd say its 60/40 tanking) is not as good as last year, but way better than 2 months ago and not bad at all. Plus the added benefit of more minutes for our kiddo, and getting that delusional ---- off the roster (funny to look at how much love was being given to the guy on this board back in January/February of '24).

[DCZards]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Im sure he'll have some nights like that, but I really dont want this to turn into sour grapes from people.
The same ones who comment in the Deni trade two weeks ago after a great game against the Suns, went oddly silent the last 10 days after he put up an abysmal stat line over the last 5 games.
Or after Jared Butler looks thoroughly mediocre with Philly.
Or the same people who thought including Jordan Goodwin in the Beal trade would be a huge loss.

Don't misread me. I'm happy for Kuz and I'm happy that the Zards were able to trade him.

No sour grapes from me. It's a win-win for the Zards and Kuz as far as I'm concerned.

[pcbothwel]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Im sure he'll have some nights like that, but I really dont want this to turn into sour grapes from people.
The same ones who comment in the Deni trade two weeks ago after a great game against the Suns, went oddly silent the last 10 days after he put up an abysmal stat line over the last 5 games.
Or after Jared Butler looks thoroughly mediocre with Philly.
Or the same people who thought including Jordan Goodwin in the Beal trade would be a huge loss.

Deni's performance over his last 10 is fine - he's had a couple of stinkers but still looks like a good player.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/avdija-last-10-game

Oh... I loved Deni and wish him the best. He is an excellent piece and was upset about the trade as we didnt gain any value from Brogdon. But Deni is the same guy as last year, but a little less efficient and with more turnovers.
Meanwhile, we have the 2nd youngest player in the league playing significant minutes and getting better by the week.

[payitforward]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Kuz didn't have a good game, Zards.
Kuz went 7 for 17 from the floor & 5 for 8 from the line. A .463 TS% The rest of the team posted a .564 TS%.

They won by 2 points. Rather than "helped them win" it'd be more accurate to say "almost lost it for them."

His excellent defensive rebounding mitigated that somewhat, of course.

I *like* Kuz, as I think you know. But he's just not a good NBA player.

[DCZards]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Kuz didn't have a good game, Zards.
Kuz went 7 for 17 from the floor & 5 for 8 from the line. A .463 TS% The rest of the team posted a .564 TS%.

They won by 2 points. Rather than "helped them win" it'd be more accurate to say "almost lost it for them."

His excellent defensive rebounding mitigated that somewhat, of course.

I *like* Kuz, as I think you know. But he's just not a good NBA player.

Did you watch the game? I did. Kuz had some clutch rebounds and sweet assists down the stretch.

Gotta look beyond the box scores to see how a player actually performed and when they performed. Those things matter...at least to me.

Kuz was a +12 for the game, btw.

[payitforward]

Kuz had a good game for the Bucks last night. 19pts, 13rebs. Helped Milwaukee beat Minny without Giannis and Lillard.

Kuz didn't have a good game, Zards.
Kuz went 7 for 17 from the floor & 5 for 8 from the line. A .463 TS% The rest of the team posted a .564 TS%.

They won by 2 points. Rather than "helped them win" it'd be more accurate to say "almost lost it for them."

His excellent defensive rebounding mitigated that somewhat, of course.

I *like* Kuz, as I think you know. But he's just not a good NBA player.

Did you watch the game? I did. Kuz had some clutch rebounds and sweet assists down the stretch.

Gotta look beyond the box scores to see how a player actually performed and when they performed. Those things matter...at least to me.

Kuz was a +12 for the game, btw.

Whew... this is gonna be hard.

I'm not a mathematician, & I've been a basketball fan all my long life -- I saw Bill Russell win a college championship! That's before you were born.

Basketball is not a gymnastics floor routine. There is no judgment of a player except his effect on the bottom line, which in basketball is the final score. That's it.

That "effect" depends on two things & 2 things only: the player's impace on the efficiency of the team scoring the ball (compared to the other team) & the player's impact on the number of chances (compared to the other team) that the team gets to try to score.

That's it. Nothing else impacts wins/losses. How player looked has no effect on the final score. When he did something (1st quarter or 4th) also has no effect on the final score.

Look at Rudy Gobert's line in that game. He went 10-14 & grabbed 14 boards (6 of them on the offensive end). He also had assists/blocks, etc.

Rudy Gobert had a great game. Would you question that? Nah.... Yet he was -13.

You think that was b/c of how he played? Not exactly. It was b/c of how the other 4 guys on the floor with him played! Rudy did everything a player can do to get his team a win, yet his team lost. It happens.

Kuz had a lousy game. Yet his team won. It happens. The rest of the guys played well enough to overcome his bad shooting & turnovers.

Again... there is no room for opinion in determining who wins a game & who loses. No one is holding up a sign that reads "10" for any player.

You produce 19 points out of 17 shots & 8 FTAs, & you are helping your team lose. Period. If they win all the same, great -- they overcame your misses.

Not looking for a debate -- esp. not with you, old buddy. & I'd be perfectly happy if Kuz played well -- will applaud him when he does.

Btw -- Ryan Rollins went 2-12. He was awful. But his on/off was +14. So what.

[DCZards]

^^^^These are individual men and not a collection of machines. Things like emotion, hustle, and energy don’t show up in the numbers…but, of course, you’d say nor do they matter. Sigh

[payitforward]

-- Of course they matter! There's more to life than winning/losing!

I used to hustle like crazy on the basketball court.
OTOH -- trust me on this -- it didn't help my team win!

But, to the degree that those things "matter" to wins & losses, they MUST "show up in the numbers" one way or another --> after all, you can't affect wins if you don't affect the final score of games.

Now... if you want to argue that a player can, say, *inspire* his teammates to play better -- & that such an ability counts in determining how good a player is (or how good a game he just had), then sure why not? & that would definitely affect our judgment of the guy.

& maybe that's what happened the other night. Maybe Kuz's "emotion, hustle, and energy" inspired the Bucks to win, "rallied the troops" as it were. Or, who knows, maybe it was Ryan Rollins doing that! After all, he had a +14 on/off.

One way or the other, I'm sure we both wish him well.

[Kanyewest]

Kuz didn't have a good game, Zards.
Kuz went 7 for 17 from the floor & 5 for 8 from the line. A .463 TS% The rest of the team posted a .564 TS%.

They won by 2 points. Rather than "helped them win" it'd be more accurate to say "almost lost it for them."

His excellent defensive rebounding mitigated that somewhat, of course.

I *like* Kuz, as I think you know. But he's just not a good NBA player.

Did you watch the game? I did. Kuz had some clutch rebounds and sweet assists down the stretch.

Gotta look beyond the box scores to see how a player actually performed and when they performed. Those things matter...at least to me.

Kuz was a +12 for the game, btw.

Whew... this is gonna be hard.

I'm not a mathematician, & I've been a basketball fan all my long life -- I saw Bill Russell win a college championship! That's before you were born.

Basketball is not a gymnastics floor routine. There is no judgment of a player except his effect on the bottom line, which in basketball is the final score. That's it.

That "effect" depends on two things & 2 things only: the player's impace on the efficiency of the team scoring the ball (compared to the other team) & the player's impact on the number of chances (compared to the other team) that the team gets to try to score.

That's it. Nothing else impacts wins/losses. How player looked has no effect on the final score. When he did something (1st quarter or 4th) also has no effect on the final score.

Look at Rudy Gobert's line in that game. He went 10-14 & grabbed 14 boards (6 of them on the offensive end). He also had assists/blocks, etc.

Rudy Gobert had a great game. Would you question that? Nah.... Yet he was -13.

You think that was b/c of how he played? Not exactly. It was b/c of how the other 4 guys on the floor with him played! Rudy did everything a player can do to get his team a win, yet his team lost. It happens.

Kuz had a lousy game. Yet his team won. It happens. The rest of the guys played well enough to overcome his bad shooting & turnovers.

Again... there is no room for opinion in determining who wins a game & who loses. No one is holding up a sign that reads "10" for any player.

You produce 19 points out of 17 shots & 8 FTAs, & you are helping your team lose. Period. If they win all the same, great -- they overcame your misses.

Not looking for a debate -- esp. not with you, old buddy. & I'd be perfectly happy if Kuz played well -- will applaud him when he does.

Btw -- Ryan Rollins went 2-12. He was awful. But his on/off was +14. So what.

Yes Rudy is very valuable. More than Kuzma. Still while Rudy had 14 rebounds, Kuzma had 13 rebounds. Yes Rudy had fewer turnovers but his playmaking didn't alleviate Minnesota's poor offense.

So while Gobert had a very good game, you could still argue that Kuzma had a better game than Anthony Edwards (and maybe Kuzma had a role in his 10-31 shooting)

[payitforward]

Oh no doubt! BTW, I have Edwards going 10-33 (not 31). He had an awful game, obviously.