Shams: Ingram extends 120/3

[cpower]

stand alone deals:
jalen mcdaniels for 2 seconds and mitchell was a win
29th pick for agbaji was a win

Siakam for Ingram/Agbaji/Walter/Shead/2 seconds is more than fair
OG trade is TBD depending on how quickley does over next few years
Poeltl trade is the big miss but mostly because FVV left in FA unexpectedly which left a big gaping hole at PG and forced us into a rebuild when we had a pick debt.

Norman Powell to Trail Blazers for Rodney Hood and Gary Trent Jr. This is also bad

It wasn't viewed poorly at the time IIRC. Portland later dumped Powell for salary relief so its not like we lost out on a lot of value

Powell: 20/3/2 on 65%TS and 1.5 BPM
Ingram 22/6/5 on 56%TS and -0.4 BPM

I dont see there is any major gap between the two players (season be traded) if there is at all. I am just surprised that GMs are still looking at raw output but not the overall impact.

[Godaddycurse]

Norman Powell to Trail Blazers for Rodney Hood and Gary Trent Jr. This is also bad

It wasn't viewed poorly at the time IIRC. Portland later dumped Powell for salary relief so its not like we lost out on a lot of value

Powell: 20/3/2 on 65%TS and 1.5 BPM
Ingram 22/6/5 on 56%TS and -0.4 BPM

I dont see there is any major gap between the two players (season be traded) if there is at all. I am just surprised that GMs are still looking at raw output but not the overall impact.

Not sure why you are randomly comparing powell and ingram..?

[Godaddycurse]

Norman Powell to Trail Blazers for Rodney Hood and Gary Trent Jr. This is also bad

It wasn't viewed poorly at the time IIRC. Portland later dumped Powell for salary relief so its not like we lost out on a lot of value

Dragic and 1st for Thad Young is pretty bad. I get that Thad Young is a good locker room presence, but he was avg 6.1 ppg, 3.6 rebs for the Spurs at the time. Hindsight is always 20-20, but the Raps could have potentially picked Christian Braun, Walker Kessler, Nikola Jovic, Andrew Nembhard, etc.

It was dragic and pick 20 for young and pick 33. Raptors also ducked the tax that season with that trade IIRC. Value was not great but understandable why they did it. Helped them finished 5th in the east that year.

[Godaddycurse]

I think the prevailing consensus is that Masai waited too long on Siakam and OG, then lost FVV for nothing when he should have gotten SOMETHING for him. Overall, IMO he's been a bad exec since 2020 like cpower said.

You had it the other way around. He lost FVV for nothing unexpectedly; he wanted to keep the core around for one more playoff push and thats why he traded for poeltl but that plan got blown up as a result of FVV leaving in FA. If he had known FVV was going to get a max offer in FA then he would've sold OG and Siakam sooner. Ime Udoka to Houston really screwed up his plan

[cpower]

It wasn't viewed poorly at the time IIRC. Portland later dumped Powell for salary relief so its not like we lost out on a lot of value

Powell: 20/3/2 on 65%TS and 1.5 BPM
Ingram 22/6/5 on 56%TS and -0.4 BPM

I dont see there is any major gap between the two players (season be traded) if there is at all. I am just surprised that GMs are still looking at raw output but not the overall impact.

Not sure why you are randomly comparing powell and ingram..?

because i wanted to know the thought process behind signing players.. Ingram has up and downs and injured, Powell had less upside but also much cheaper.. When they were traded around they were both 27 so what made Masai do this? because he was supposed to be more talented ? lol

[realball]

Powell: 20/3/2 on 65%TS and 1.5 BPM
Ingram 22/6/5 on 56%TS and -0.4 BPM

I dont see there is any major gap between the two players (season be traded) if there is at all. I am just surprised that GMs are still looking at raw output but not the overall impact.

Not sure why you are randomly comparing powell and ingram..?

because i wanted to know the thought process behind signing players.. Ingram has up and downs and injured, Powell had less upside but also much cheaper.. When they were traded around they were both 27 so what made Masai do this? because he was supposed to be more talented ? lol

Norm got traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years. You wanted us to hold onto him while we were rebuilding so he could break out at the age of 31? lol

[cpower]

Not sure why you are randomly comparing powell and ingram..?

because i wanted to know the thought process behind signing players.. Ingram has up and downs and injured, Powell had less upside but also much cheaper.. When they were traded around they were both 27 so what made Masai do this? because he was supposed to be more talented ? lol

Norm got traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years. You wanted us to hold onto him while we were rebuilding so he could break out at the age of 31? lol

he was not a bench player, he played 31/42 games as starter...now you want to talk about break out.. Ingram has not really broken out so you will instead hold on him for 4 years at age of 31?

[realball]

because i wanted to know the thought process behind signing players.. Ingram has up and downs and injured, Powell had less upside but also much cheaper.. When they were traded around they were both 27 so what made Masai do this? because he was supposed to be more talented ? lol

Norm got traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years. You wanted us to hold onto him while we were rebuilding so he could break out at the age of 31? lol

he was not a bench player, he played 31/42 games as starter...now you want to talk about break out.. Ingram has not really broken out so you will instead hold on him for 4 years at age of 31?

What are you talking about? Ingram has been an All-Star. In the West.

And for Powell, you mean he became a starter this year? He started all of 3 games out of 76 last year.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Norm got traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years. You wanted us to hold onto him while we were rebuilding so he could break out at the age of 31? lol

he was not a bench player, he played 31/42 games as starter...now you want to talk about break out.. Ingram has not really broken out so you will instead hold on him for 4 years at age of 31?

What are you talking about? Ingram has been an All-Star. In the West.

And for Powell, you mean he became a starter this year? He started all of 3 games out of 76 last year.

I think you guys (Toronto Fans) need to stop getting so emotional and think before posting.

CPower is clearly referencing Powell starting 31/42 games prior to being traded FROM Toronto.

Why would you bring up this year?

[realball]

he was not a bench player, he played 31/42 games as starter...now you want to talk about break out.. Ingram has not really broken out so you will instead hold on him for 4 years at age of 31?

What are you talking about? Ingram has been an All-Star. In the West.

And for Powell, you mean he became a starter this year? He started all of 3 games out of 76 last year.

I think you guys (Toronto Fans) need to stop getting so emotional and think before posting.

CPower is clearly referencing Powell starting 31/42 games prior to being traded FROM Toronto.

Why would you bring up this year?

Because I clearly stated "Powell was traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years". Our main starters for the year he was traded were Lowry, FVV, OG, Siakam, and Baynes.

Are you denying that Powell has primarily come off the bench for the Clippers? That this is his first year as a fulltime starter? Do you think we should have held onto him because of the season he is having at the age of 31? Think about it before you reply.

[ReggiesKnicks]

What are you talking about? Ingram has been an All-Star. In the West.

And for Powell, you mean he became a starter this year? He started all of 3 games out of 76 last year.

I think you guys (Toronto Fans) need to stop getting so emotional and think before posting.

CPower is clearly referencing Powell starting 31/42 games prior to being traded FROM Toronto.

Why would you bring up this year?

Because I clearly stated "Powell was traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years".

Are you denying that Powell has primarily come off the bench for the Clippers? That this is his first year as a fulltime starter? Do you think we should have held onto him because of the season he is having at the age of 31? Think about it before you reply.

Oh, I thought it was obvious the other post (CPower) was referencing Powell being traded and starting 31/42 games prior to the trade (and 50% of games the year prior).

I have enjoyed my time on this forum so far but what I don't enjoy on the internet is going back-and-forth about semantics, which people seem to love.

I've already said my piece about Ingram in this thread and it appears Toronto Raptors fans love this trade and extension while the majority of the other fans of 29 other teams fall somewhere between to in terms of the extension.

The important part about fandom here, specifically for Toronto fans, is they are optimistic. They are telling themselves that Brandon Ingram is a Western Conference All-Star (I mean, he was, but statistically he has never been close to that level), and that's awesome. I am happy you and ~85% of your fanbase loves this deal. But, given how some Raptors fans are talking about Masai over the past 5 years, it seems he is viewed in a positive light in a way I would have never expected as someone who has a different view of the NBA (not from the Raptors POV).

[cpower]

What are you talking about? Ingram has been an All-Star. In the West.

And for Powell, you mean he became a starter this year? He started all of 3 games out of 76 last year.

I think you guys (Toronto Fans) need to stop getting so emotional and think before posting.

CPower is clearly referencing Powell starting 31/42 games prior to being traded FROM Toronto.

Why would you bring up this year?

Because I clearly stated "Powell was traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years". Our main starters for the year he was traded were Lowry, FVV, OG, Siakam, and Baynes.

Are you denying that Powell has primarily come off the bench for the Clippers? That this is his first year as a fulltime starter? Do you think we should have held onto him because of the season he is having at the age of 31? Think about it before you reply.

why do you think coming off the bench means bad? Iguodala who is twice the player of Ingram and HOFer, come off the bench most of the time for warriors. If you are evaluating players based on whether they come off the bench or not, that's pretty wild.

[realball]

I think you guys (Toronto Fans) need to stop getting so emotional and think before posting.

CPower is clearly referencing Powell starting 31/42 games prior to being traded FROM Toronto.

Why would you bring up this year?

Because I clearly stated "Powell was traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years". Our main starters for the year he was traded were Lowry, FVV, OG, Siakam, and Baynes.

Are you denying that Powell has primarily come off the bench for the Clippers? That this is his first year as a fulltime starter? Do you think we should have held onto him because of the season he is having at the age of 31? Think about it before you reply.

why do you think coming off the bench means bad? Iguodala who is twice the player of Ingram and HOFer, come off the bench most of the time for warriors. If you are evaluating players based on whether they come off the bench or not, that's pretty wild.

LOL Iguodala is not going to be a HOFer.

[Dr Positivity]

FVV, Siakam, Anunoby could've been a consistent 45 W+ core. They've all been winning players since and in the early Raptors days. How much worse of a trio is that than Lowry, Derozan, and Valanciunas? Sure Lowry is better than FVV, but I like Siakam more than Derozan in impact and FVV/Siakam is a more complimentary PG/PF combo than two guards. And they had a ROY Barnes.

So what happened? Mainly, the depth was never there. Along with a gaping hole at starting C before Poeltl, players like Flynn/Banton, Boucher, Thad Young's corpse, etc. made the days of Joseph, Ross and Patterson look amazing in comparison. They got hot in 22 season by Nurse turning into Thibs minutes wise and cutting out scrub minutes. Add in some injuries and overall it seemed like worse chemistry, rumors of Nurse being a prick or FVV and Barnes not liking each other. Lowry's impact on the Raptors wasn't just play but leadership and they haven't really been the same since.

But then Masai messed up in middle of 22-23 season. He should've pulled the cord on his plan and starting shopping Siakam, FVV and Anunoby there. Instead he went the other direction and tried to save it by getting Poeltl, when a low spacing C doesn't fit Barnes/Siakam combo, and with that and Schroeder as starting PG in 23-24 he built a team that makes absolutely no sense that made everyone look worse. In the end he gets nothing for FVV and worse deals for Siakam and Anunoby than he would've. Anunoby for Quickley and Barrett was an interesting move in that he gets two mid career starting caliber players and hopes one of them makes a leap to perennial all-star, like when Toronto got Lowry or Indiana got Oladipo or something. I think it's not going to happen for Barrett while for Quickley he hasn't really had a chance due to injury. So it might not work, but if he got two picks for Anunoby they could've busted too.

Overall, it doesn't look that good. I still think he's a good drafter but the Barnes pick doesn't look as amazing as it once did and Dick's stats collapsed after a hot start this year.

[realball]

I think you guys (Toronto Fans) need to stop getting so emotional and think before posting.

CPower is clearly referencing Powell starting 31/42 games prior to being traded FROM Toronto.

Why would you bring up this year?

Because I clearly stated "Powell was traded four years ago, and was a bench player for those four years".

Are you denying that Powell has primarily come off the bench for the Clippers? That this is his first year as a fulltime starter? Do you think we should have held onto him because of the season he is having at the age of 31? Think about it before you reply.

Oh, I thought it was obvious the other post (CPower) was referencing Powell being traded and starting 31/42 games prior to the trade (and 50% of games the year prior).

I have enjoyed my time on this forum so far but what I don't enjoy on the internet is going back-and-forth about semantics, which people seem to love.

I've already said my piece about Ingram in this thread and it appears Toronto Raptors fans love this trade and extension while the majority of the other fans of 29 other teams fall somewhere between to in terms of the extension.

The important part about fandom here, specifically for Toronto fans, is they are optimistic. They are telling themselves that Brandon Ingram is a Western Conference All-Star (I mean, he was, but statistically he has never been close to that level), and that's awesome. I am happy you and ~85% of your fanbase loves this deal. But, given how some Raptors fans are talking about Masai over the past 5 years, it seems he is viewed in a positive light in a way I would have never expected as someone who has a different view of the NBA (not from the Raptors POV).

Oh right, you hate arguing about semantics, that's why you had quibble about the games Powell started lol. Sure Jan.

You guys traded for Siakam last year for basically the same price, so it's weird that as a Pacers fan, you wouldn't understand why trading for a signing a good player would be viewed as something positive. Are you regretting the Pascal extension right now too?

[ReggiesKnicks]

You guys traded for Siakam last year for basically the same price, so it's weird that as a Pacers fan, you wouldn't understand why trading for a signing a good player would be viewed as something positive.

I view Siakam as a much better player than Ingram. Siakam, to me, is a two-way player and Top 30 or so player (you can quibble if he is 21st or 28th) who was coming off his 2 best seasons of his career in his age 27 and 28 seasons. I view Ingram as a Top 60-75 player and doesn't play defense.

Are you regretting the Pascal extension right now too?

No, or at least not because anything Siakam has or hasn't done. Remember, when we (Pacers) made the deal, Haliburton was having a historically great offensive season. He looked like he had made the leap to a clear-cut top tier offensive force in the NBA, and adding a two-way wing is a perfect fit next to Haliburton. Since then, Haliburton has regressed some, and Haliburton's regression does lead to some minor questions regarding "Are we going to win with Haliburton just being an all-star level player next to Siakam?" and the answer to that is likely no, we aren't winning anything with Haliburton playing at this level.

Siakam has been just as good as he was in his age 27 and 28 seasons though.

Age 27: .151 WS/48, 2.7 OBPM, -4.1 TS+, +4.5 +/- (+6.6 On/Off), 34.4 3P%
Age 28: .141 WS/48, 3.3 OBPM, -48.8 TS+, +2.2 +/- (+3.1 On/Off), 32.4 3P%
Age 30: .164 WS/48, 3.1 OBPM, 74.8 TS+, +4.3 +/- (+12.4 On/Off), 41.1 3P%

Siakam does appear to have not lost a step while playing in an up-tempo style of offense. He has less responsibility in Indiana to not carry a playmaking burden and can instead focus more on what he does best offensively which is as a slasher/cutter/scorer. This has led to a massive jump in Siakam's efficiency.

[realball]

You guys traded for Siakam last year for basically the same price, so it's weird that as a Pacers fan, you wouldn't understand why trading for a signing a good player would be viewed as something positive.

I view Siakam as a much better player than Ingram. Siakam, to me, is a two-way player and Top 30 or so player (you can quibble if he is 21st or 28th) who was coming off his 2 best seasons of his career in his age 27 and 28 seasons. I view Ingram as a Top 60-75 player and doesn't play defense.

Are you regretting the Pascal extension right now too?

No, or at least not because anything Siakam has or hasn't done. Remember, when we (Pacers) made the deal, Haliburton was having a historically great offensive season. He looked like he had made the leap to a clear-cut top tier offensive force in the NBA, and adding a two-way wing is a perfect fit next to Haliburton. Since then, Haliburton has regressed some, and Haliburton's regression does lead to some minor questions regarding "Are we going to win with Haliburton just being an all-star level player next to Siakam?" and the answer to that is likely no, we aren't winning anything with Haliburton playing at this level.

Siakam has been just as good as he was in his age 27 and 28 seasons though.

Age 27: .151 WS/48, 2.7 OBPM, -4.1 TS+, +4.5 +/- (+6.6 On/Off), 34.4 3P%
Age 28: .141 WS/48, 3.3 OBPM, -48.8 TS+, +2.2 +/- (+3.1 On/Off), 32.4 3P%
Age 30: .164 WS/48, 3.1 OBPM, 74.8 TS+, +4.3 +/- (+12.4 On/Off), 41.1 3P%

Siakam does appear to have not lost a step while playing in an up-tempo style of offense. He has less responsibility in Indiana to not carry a playmaking burden and can instead focus more on what he does best offensively which is as a slasher/cutter/scorer. This has led to a massive jump in Siakam's efficiency.

Siakam is also paid nearly 25% more in salary than Ingram, so that makes the extension fair then, right? I agree that Siakam is a better player than Ingram, but Ingram is a much better fit next to Barnes. Which is why this trade makes sense for us. And just like Siakam got an efficiency boost playing on a better team, I can imagine Ingram will play better as well on a better offensive team like the one Masai has put together.

Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, SGA, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Mitchell, AD, Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kyrie, Brunson, Towns, Cade, Fox, Sabonis, JJJ, Morant, Booker, Lamelo, Jalen Williams ... that's 25 players that any self-respecting basketball fan would put head and shoulders over Siakam. Then there's a host of other players like Brown, Mobley, Sengun, etc. that are also right there with Siakam hovering around top 30, not mention guys like Zion and Embiid. I think Ingram is in that range of 30-50 with Siakam (and Haliburton and Barnes).

[ReggiesKnicks]

Siakam is also paid nearly 25% more in salary than Ingram, so that makes the extension fair then, right? I agree that Siakam is a better player than Ingram, but Ingram is a much better fit next to Barnes. Which is why this trade makes sense for us. And just like Siakam got an efficiency boost playing on a better team, I can imagine Ingram will play better as well on a better offensive team like the one Masai has put together.

1) I don't think that is how salary should be paid, but I have a rigid view of salary structure. I think you should pay Top Tier players (Top 30-40 guys) top tier money, and then back-fill the roster with lower starting-caliber players for 10-15% of the cap. I think paying medium-tier starters 20+% is a recipe for disaster.

2) You think the current Raptors are better the 49-33 Pelicans from last year? I don't. That team saw Ingram at -4.4 TS+.

[realball]

Siakam is also paid nearly 25% more in salary than Ingram, so that makes the extension fair then, right? I agree that Siakam is a better player than Ingram, but Ingram is a much better fit next to Barnes. Which is why this trade makes sense for us. And just like Siakam got an efficiency boost playing on a better team, I can imagine Ingram will play better as well on a better offensive team like the one Masai has put together.

1) I don't think that is how salary should be paid, but I have a rigid view of salary structure. I think you should pay Top Tier players (Top 30-40 guys) top tier money, and then back-fill the roster with lower starting-caliber players for 10-15% of the cap. I think paying medium-tier starters 20+% is a recipe for disaster.

2) You think the current Raptors are better the 49-33 Pelicans from last year? I don't. That team saw Ingram at -4.4 TS+.

1) That thinking works for small market teams that will not go into the tax. As we've seen though from recent history, good teams like the Warriors and Celtics will pay to have premium talent at every position.

2) TS Add is poor metric to judge a player in a vacuum. In his All-Star season, he had a TS Add of 56. His TS% with the Pelicans has hovered around 58%, which is right around league average. And yes, I expect the Raptors to win around 45-50 wins next year if they are healthy. Probably going to be a lower level playoff team in the East, like your Pacers.

[ReggiesKnicks]

2) TS Add is poor metric to judge a player in a vacuum. In his All-Star season, he had a TS Add of 56. His TS% with the Pelicans has hovered around 58%, which is right around league average. And yes, I expect the Raptors to win around 45-50 wins next year if they are healthy. Probably going to be a lower level playoff team in the East, like your Pacers.

The topic of discussion here is efficiency and TS Add is an excellent metric for efficiency.

I'd be shocked if the Raptors were a 45-50 win team next year, but maybe everyone on the roster improves.

Like I said, I love the optimism you have for your team.