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Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension

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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#201 » by step » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:13 am

League Circles wrote:Giving up Ball also should practically mean a top 5 pick this summer, minimum.

I think we found AK's account. :lol:

League Circles wrote:I get that sometimes it does make sense to take on bad money while rebuilding. I think that has critical limits.

I agree.

There used to be some correlation to the amount owed in salary to rough expectations on picks, but that has sort of gone out of the window as 2nd rounders have become more desired etc and the max cash considerations is like $6.9M?

For instance, you can buy 2nd rounders usually pretty freely for cash considerations at the time of the draft. Going rate was like ~3M depending on the spot of course. Much cheaper at the tail end of the order.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#202 » by ShouldaPaidBG » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:19 am

The fact that Lonzo wanted to stay says a lot, and his presence goes beyond his play on the court. He's valueable to have around the rest of the team, while still (somehow, I still can't believe how good he looks) contributing on the court. I wouldn't trade him for a non-lottery pick, and even then wouldn't feel great about it.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#203 » by Dan Z » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:22 am

step wrote:
League Circles wrote:Giving up Ball also should practically mean a top 5 pick this summer, minimum.

I think we found AK's account. :lol:

League Circles wrote:I get that sometimes it does make sense to take on bad money while rebuilding. I think that has critical limits.

I agree.

There used to be some correlation to the amount owed in salary to rough expectations on picks, but that has sort of gone out of the window as 2nd rounders have become more desired etc and the max cash considerations is like $6.9M?

For instance, you can buy 2nd rounders usually pretty freely for cash considerations at the time of the draft. Going rate was like ~3M depending on the spot of course. Much cheaper at the tail end of the order.


When is the last time a team outright bought a 2nd round pick?
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#204 » by SirKaiser » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:04 am

I'm pretty critical of a lot of AK's moves or lack thereof, but resigning Ball and keeping him was a great move. He provides a lot of intangibles and high BB IQ that will only become more valuable. He's basically a younger Caruso... which means AK was consistent in not valuing some arbitrary 1st round pick over Ball.

As long as it wasn't some lottery pick within the next year or two, who cares?
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#205 » by step » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:06 am

Dan Z wrote:When is the last time a team outright bought a 2nd round pick?

Atlanta got Djurisic, 43rd pick, for 'cash considerations' in a 3 team trade just last year. Doesn't say how much.
Wizards got $2M for Tracye Jackson-Davis the 57th pick in 2023.

76ers sent $2M to the Pelicans in 2021 for the 53rd pick.
We infamously traded Jordan Bell for $3.5M in 2017, 38th pick.

Many deals are obscured by the inclusion of the draft rights to this obscure player (who'll often never play in the NBA) or future picks instead too. Like 2023, Magic got a 2030 2nd rounder plus cash considerations for their 36th pick (Andre Jackson Jr).
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#206 » by Dan Z » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:55 am

step wrote:
Dan Z wrote:When is the last time a team outright bought a 2nd round pick?

Atlanta got Djurisic, 43rd pick, for 'cash considerations' in a 3 team trade just last year. Doesn't say how much.
Wizards got $2M for Tracye Jackson-Davis the 57th pick in 2023.

76ers sent $2M to the Pelicans in 2021 for the 53rd pick.
We infamously traded Jordan Bell for $3.5M in 2017, 38th pick.

Many deals are obscured by the inclusion of the draft rights to this obscure player (who'll often never play in the NBA) or future picks instead too. Like 2023, Magic got a 2030 2nd rounder plus cash considerations for their 36th pick (Andre Jackson Jr).


That's why I said outright. In the deals you mentions players were in them. In order for the Bulls to do that they'd need assets.

In the case of TJD he was the 57th pick and is a rarity that he ended up being productive (for where he was picked).

Jordan Bell is 8 years ago. The NBA has changed a lot since that time.

My main point is its not so easy to just buy 2nd round picks today.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#207 » by WesPeace » Thu Feb 13, 2025 9:17 am

Why Lonzo didnt play in any of Pistons games?
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#208 » by dougthonus » Thu Feb 13, 2025 9:47 am

Based on it being Hollinger breaking the news, and what actually happened this deadline. I think it is reasonable to guess the trade in question was: Marcus Smart + 1st for Lonzo Ball + 2nd. That is what KC reported the construction was, Smart's salary is a match for Lonzo's salary, and Memphis effectively made this exact same trade with Washington/Sacramento.

The Grizzlies received Johnny Davis + Bagley, two guys whom aren't in the rotation of their teams and expiring deals + 2nd rounder for Smart + their 1st.

Memphis's 1st is presently #26.

Maybe with Lonzo, you're not giving up a 2nd because Lonzo is much better than those guys and can bring real on court value, but if the pick is #26 in the draft, I kind of think Lonzo fetches more than that next deadline if he stays healthy.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#209 » by step » Thu Feb 13, 2025 12:09 pm

Dan Z wrote:
step wrote:
Dan Z wrote:When is the last time a team outright bought a 2nd round pick?

Atlanta got Djurisic, 43rd pick, for 'cash considerations' in a 3 team trade just last year. Doesn't say how much.
Wizards got $2M for Tracye Jackson-Davis the 57th pick in 2023.

76ers sent $2M to the Pelicans in 2021 for the 53rd pick.
We infamously traded Jordan Bell for $3.5M in 2017, 38th pick.

Many deals are obscured by the inclusion of the draft rights to this obscure player (who'll often never play in the NBA) or future picks instead too. Like 2023, Magic got a 2030 2nd rounder plus cash considerations for their 36th pick (Andre Jackson Jr).


That's why I said outright. In the deals you mentions players were in them.

For all intents and purpose, they were picks traded for cash. Teams tell the other which player to draft and then they have a week to finalise the trade and the NBA records it as the player was traded in exchange for cash considerations. Not as it is often revealed by Shams and Woj on twitter in real time on draft night.

In order for the Bulls to do that they'd need assets.

We are in agreeance with that.

My main point is its not so easy to just buy 2nd round picks today.

Eh it is so so. It literally happens every year still enough to show you can always find someone.
And if we expand on our assets to include future 2nds, then we are likely to find many takers.

Food for thought - 15 picks were traded on the 2nd day of last year's draft (link below).
https://www.nba.com/news/nba-draft-2024-3-takeaways-second-round
Another nifty link - https://www.thedraftreview.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=139

Also the market may change with an influx of them becoming available in the coming years. Given a few teams control a large number of the upcoming picks in which they simply can't accommodate them on their own, they're either going to be sellers and either look to defer them or to bundle in a hell of a trade. A quick scan shows:

San Antonio has 5 picks next year alone (2 firsts and 3 seconds)
Oklahoma has 4 (2 firsts and 2 seconds)
Utah has 4 (2 and 2)
Orlando has 4 (2 and 2)
New York has 4 (2 and 2)

Utah may be the only one that may use them all... I see the others trading some of them as they move more to win-now mode.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#210 » by League Circles » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:10 pm

dougthonus wrote:Based on it being Hollinger breaking the news, and what actually happened this deadline. I think it is reasonable to guess the trade in question was: Marcus Smart + 1st for Lonzo Ball + 2nd. That is what KC reported the construction was, Smart's salary is a match for Lonzo's salary, and Memphis effectively made this exact same trade with Washington/Sacramento.

The Grizzlies received Johnny Davis + Bagley, two guys whom aren't in the rotation of their teams and expiring deals + 2nd rounder for Smart + their 1st.

Memphis's 1st is presently #26.

Maybe with Lonzo, you're not giving up a 2nd because Lonzo is much better than those guys and can bring real on court value, but if the pick is #26 in the draft, I kind of think Lonzo fetches more than that next deadline if he stays healthy.


Lonzo also projects as wildly better than a #26 pick not only in each of the next two seasons on his cheap contract, but for another 5 years after that. The #26 pick will probably be out of the league while Lonzo is still playing 20+ mpg.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#211 » by Hangtime84 » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:35 pm

WesPeace wrote:Why Lonzo didnt play in any of Pistons games?

Sick with flu to the point he has to take IVs
Jcool0 wrote:
aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?


If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


NBA fan logic we need to trade one of two best players because (Player X) one needs to shine more.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#212 » by dougthonus » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:47 pm

League Circles wrote:Lonzo also projects as wildly better than a #26 pick not only in each of the next two seasons on his cheap contract, but for another 5 years after that. The #26 pick will probably be out of the league while Lonzo is still playing 20+ mpg.


If we ignore all health risks for Lonzo, I would agree. I think that's obviously an incredibly dangerous assumption to make.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#213 » by ChettheJet » Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:47 pm

The IV's were mentioned on DET game 2. Even if he wasn't ill Lonzo only would have played one of the 2 games anyway. Plus with the 9 guard roster, losses are not exactly a bad thing for the real (not mock) draft and that he signed for 2 years, I'd sit Ball every time he coughed, sneezed or stubbed his toe. Give the other 8 guys the time to show that they should be looked at to extend or are just expiring contracts other teams feel the need for. Some guys look like they're playing their way out of town.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#214 » by League Circles » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:01 pm

dougthonus wrote:
League Circles wrote:Lonzo also projects as wildly better than a #26 pick not only in each of the next two seasons on his cheap contract, but for another 5 years after that. The #26 pick will probably be out of the league while Lonzo is still playing 20+ mpg.


If we ignore all health risks for Lonzo, I would agree. I think that's obviously an incredibly dangerous assumption to make.


I disagree. Lonzo's real injury has had zero warning signs this year, but more importantly, a #26 pick projects as a replacement caliber player, especially during the 4 seasons of their guaranteed contract. Lonzo is likely to make more of an impact in his 10 best games alone for the rest of his career than a #26 will ever make in their career. Obviously a team can get lucky and get a decent player there, it's just not projected.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#215 » by GetBuLLish » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:21 pm

If the Bulls rejected the deal because they believe they'll be able to get better trade compensation for Lonzo this summer or next season, then it's probably a reasonable a reasonable decision and let's hope they turn out right.

If the Bulls rejected the deal because they didn't want to take on salary, then this franchise is doomed.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#216 » by Jcool0 » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:24 pm

Lonzo may be worth more then pick 26. But his value lies on a contending team needing a backup PG. So most likely that pick will be in the 20s. So it doesn't change the caliber of player they are looking at.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#217 » by dougthonus » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:37 pm

League Circles wrote:I disagree. Lonzo's real injury has had zero warning signs this year, but more importantly, a #26 pick projects as a replacement caliber player, especially during the 4 seasons of their guaranteed contract. Lonzo is likely to make more of an impact in his 10 best games alone for the rest of his career than a #26 will ever make in their career. Obviously a team can get lucky and get a decent player there, it's just not projected.


:dontknow:

Lonzo doing anything in 10 games doesn't mean anything to you in a season that ultimately doesn't mean anything to you, like next season as an example, like Lonzo actually probably hurts your ability to get a good draft pick next year.

A #26 pick is likely to be worthless, I totally agree, but you need to stop thinking about only the likely case, like if the value is 50% worthless, 40% role player, 10% high upside, high value player, when you are really bad, that 10% chance is worth more than Lonzo for a short period of time in a year you would rather chase a draft pick anyway.

Also, while Lonzo has shown no reason to be scared about his future, the same was true prior to him missing 2.5 years with an injury out of no where. What we know is that Lonzo, even prior to the big injury, has had a long history of massive injury problems. Who knows how he projects going forward.

Either way, I agree with you, I'd rather have Lonzo than #26, just think your definitive view of that is a bit off, because not all value is created equally, we need long term value, and with Lonzo's history, quantifying him as long term value (in 2+ years) to me is very dicey.

But I do think he'll be worth more than #26 next deadline.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#218 » by Chi town » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:38 pm

dougthonus wrote:Based on it being Hollinger breaking the news, and what actually happened this deadline. I think it is reasonable to guess the trade in question was: Marcus Smart + 1st for Lonzo Ball + 2nd. That is what KC reported the construction was, Smart's salary is a match for Lonzo's salary, and Memphis effectively made this exact same trade with Washington/Sacramento.

The Grizzlies received Johnny Davis + Bagley, two guys whom aren't in the rotation of their teams and expiring deals + 2nd rounder for Smart + their 1st.

Memphis's 1st is presently #26.

Maybe with Lonzo, you're not giving up a 2nd because Lonzo is much better than those guys and can bring real on court value, but if the pick is #26 in the draft, I kind of think Lonzo fetches more than that next deadline if he stays healthy.


On this new deal Zo should be worth a much better pick especially if we take on more salary than his 10M
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#219 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:56 pm

dougthonus wrote:
League Circles wrote:Lonzo also projects as wildly better than a #26 pick not only in each of the next two seasons on his cheap contract, but for another 5 years after that. The #26 pick will probably be out of the league while Lonzo is still playing 20+ mpg.


If we ignore all health risks for Lonzo, I would agree. I think that's obviously an incredibly dangerous assumption to make.


As you've noted before, it's hard to even know whether there *are* health risk with Lonzo, given his knee has effectively been replaced. There may well be - I don't know.
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Re: Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to 2 year, $20 million extension 

Post#220 » by League Circles » Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:00 pm

dougthonus wrote:
League Circles wrote:I disagree. Lonzo's real injury has had zero warning signs this year, but more importantly, a #26 pick projects as a replacement caliber player, especially during the 4 seasons of their guaranteed contract. Lonzo is likely to make more of an impact in his 10 best games alone for the rest of his career than a #26 will ever make in their career. Obviously a team can get lucky and get a decent player there, it's just not projected.


:dontknow:

Lonzo doing anything in 10 games doesn't mean anything to you in a season that ultimately doesn't mean anything to you, like next season as an example, like Lonzo actually probably hurts your ability to get a good draft pick next year.

A #26 pick is likely to be worthless, I totally agree, but you need to stop thinking about only the likely case, like if the value is 50% worthless, 40% role player, 10% high upside, high value player, when you are really bad, that 10% chance is worth more than Lonzo for a short period of time in a year you would rather chase a draft pick anyway.

Also, while Lonzo has shown no reason to be scared about his future, the same was true prior to him missing 2.5 years with an injury out of no where. What we know is that Lonzo, even prior to the big injury, has had a long history of massive injury problems. Who knows how he projects going forward.

Either way, I agree with you, I'd rather have Lonzo than #26, just think your definitive view of that is a bit off, because not all value is created equally, we need long term value, and with Lonzo's history, quantifying him as long term value (in 2+ years) to me is very dicey.

But I do think he'll be worth more than #26 next deadline.

Just to be clear, I value Lonzo as a trade chip and as a player on the court in 2026-27 and beyond (on his next bird-rights contract potentially), as he's only 27. I want to try to start winning in 26-27 after adding two more lottery picks, hopefully at least one significant free agent or trade return, and internal improvement. I think of him as I would a 27 year old lottery pick if that were a thing.

I think odds for a #26 pick are more like 50% worthless 4 year bad contract (albeit a small contract), 47% role player (which is also basically worthless considering how easily such guys can be found in free agency for peanuts), and 3% high value, high upside. Hard to wrap my head around the concept that a very late first round pick has even a 10% chance to be a high value, high upside guy.

I really just don't want low quality prospects taking up roster spots and guaranteed dollars for us, especially
As we approach 2026 free agency. Now, in contrast to my usual mantras, late firsts can have decent value to us years down the road when we are hopefully becoming good and over the cap, as they can provide cheap stability in bench roles over multiple years, but overloading our roster with too many bad young guys is a recipe for developmental disaster even for the good talents like Buzelis, 2025 frp and 2026 frp.

Basically all I care about for the Bulls right now is:

Buzelis
Smith
Ball
Patrick
2025 FRP
2026 FRP
Free agency

EVERYTHING else should be sacrificed to maximize those things IMO. The magic thing about those 4 guys is their contract length and physical talent level.
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