2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part IV

[BobbieL]

Yeah, he was awfully chummy after the game with some of those guys. I noticed an embrace with Brooks. Brooks looked good. It would be interesting to see how much they would give up for him. If our 25 pick lands in the top 4, probably not that one, but maybe the 27 one? If we could get back the 27, 29, just one prospect and one vet, I think that would be a nice haul for KD. Book could get more, but I imagine we would like to keep him regardless of things.

Maybe Whitmore, Eason, FVV or Brooks and picks? With Book maybe a more premier prospect or 2 and possibly 3 picks. Probably not Thompson or Sengun, but I think everyone else would be on the table for Book.

Hopefully there is enough of a market for both players and that is the direction Ishbia goes. Just start the rebuild... no waiting around for Booker to decide he wants to stay. Trade him.

Maybe don't put Book on the block but as soon as KD is traded people will call and we can listen and say we are not interested unless we get an offer we can't refuse. Then wait. No real rush. Remember, this stuff can go from June-Sept....we can hold out, even into the season to get better offers.

And the fact we don't have our 26 pick no matter what (swap and will end up with Memphis probably I think) and I can't remember if we got another one in the 3 for 1 trade. I think not. But the main thing is trade him around the 26 deadline at the latest. Another bad season and he would want out probably. And then if we could have gotten our 27 pick back, we can tear it down and let the young guys play.

I really hope we can keep Bol. Tell him we know we can't pay him much yet, but he will have a big role.

I am fine being patient with Booker. And I think its fair to see what the roster is after you trade Durant hopefully one of Allen or O'Neal>

Suns need to be smart with Booker - -thats for sure.

[BobbieL]

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Give me a KD for D Brooks/ Smith Jr/ Landale/ Whitmore/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st/ PHX 29' 1st for KD. IF that's too rich for Houston, take off Whitmore in exchange for our three firsts back in the deal.

Yeah, he was awfully chummy after the game with some of those guys. I noticed an embrace with Brooks. Brooks looked good. It would be interesting to see how much they would give up for him. If our 25 pick lands in the top 4, probably not that one, but maybe the 27 one? If we could get back the 27, 29, just one prospect and one vet, I think that would be a nice haul for KD. Book could get more, but I imagine we would like to keep him regardless of things.

Maybe Whitmore, Eason, FVV or Brooks and picks? With Book maybe a more premier prospect or 2 and possibly 3 picks. Probably not Thompson or Sengun, but I think everyone else would be on the table for Book.

Whilst I get KDs diminished market value with age/ 1 yr left, we really can't accept just a singular first or lowball offer for him after everything that we've given up in trade to get him. I mean sure those factors play a big role in us getting much less value for him. And honestly it was stupid to not just move him at the deadline because we could have kept the pieces in the package we got back, and then flipped the others this summer for more draft assets.

But really, at some point ( very soon...... like now) we have to more of a hardline stance and quit hemorrhaging value to other teams from weak negotiating mentality. KD is still a top 10 all time talent that is currently showcasing his nearly unstoppable offensive talents and also putting up sensational numbers and efficiency while being a really good defender.

He absolutely still commands more value than just a couple of vet fillers/ expirings/ 1 first. We at baseline should be getting back at least 2 firsts and multiple 2nds in any deal along with at least one if not two really solid young prospects and vet salary ballast fillers. This summer, there will be multiple teams aggressively pursuing him. So we'll absolutely have leverage to not get completely sandpaper dildo'ed by whatever team trades for him.

As for the picks, our threshold should at least include one premium 1st and some solid/ promising young talent. For example, with Houston, one of either Smith Jr or Eason or Whitmore included in the player portion of the package. And for the picks, we should very aggressively target our 25' 1st rather than just giving up a top 5 pick to them. Say our 25' 1st and our 27' or 29 1st. EITHER really, but we'd need two first and if not our 25' 1st (looking very premium value) then we'd need a stronger player value inclusion.

Otherwise, we should look at the other teams that'll absolutely have interest in KD and are holding a premium future first in their possession. 3 teams alone that come to mind for me that I've mentioned already are:

1- OKC. They have the Dallas 2028 1st ( most favorable pick swap) surely to be a very solid lottery pick range asset. They also have multiple firsts and 2nds and a variety of young wing options. I'd Specifically target the LAC 25' 1st ( 22nd pick range) and then the Dallas 28' 1st ( pick swap).

2- San Antonio. They currently hold multiple 1sts but the premium picks of the Dallas AND the Minnesota 2030 1sts. The Dallas pick is unprotected, and the 2030 Minnesota pick is only top 1 protected. They also have the Atlanta 27' 1st unprotected. I'd target the Atlanta 27' first and one of those two 2030 1sts.

3- Minnesota. They don't have much in the way of picks currently, but after this draft, they'll have their 2032 1st. I'd target that 1st along with a player based package around Randle/ Reid/ Dillingham/ 32 1st. Or a McDaniels/ Reid/ Divencenzo/ Shannon Jr/ Minott/ 32 1st package. But would prefer the Randle package as it'd give us a 30 million expiring that could be flipped or used to reduce our cap number. And Reid could be an excellent backup 4/5.

Overall though, if trading with Houston and considering that KD addresses their biggest glaring weakness ( shooting/ scoring) and would elevate them.to potential finals contention too, I'd have to get back our 25' 1st and one of our 27 or 29 1sts and one of the young talents in the deal as KD is still a 1A tier superstar talent. That'd fit them ideally better with their roster anyways. If they say no, I'd explore the other options that I mentioned above, but also absolutely my Denver premise idle for players over picks.

Yes, the Suns don 't want to give Durant away but they probably not getting any value close to what they gave up for him. And they can't overplay their hand and lose a good trade for Durant.

I think a good solid trade would be: couple FRPs, one nice young player, cap filler and the ability to be under the 2nd apron. A solid B trade

[bwgood77]

Well I said two picks, and our two unprotected picks in that Rockets trade. Not sure if Ghost was agreeing with that by saying we can't take back 1 or not.

I would possibly take back 1 if we got some premier young talent. Like if we got Amen Thompson, that's definitely worth a first. But that's unlikely.

And it all depends on whether KD will sign for more years where he goes. I can't see a team giving up THAT much for 1 year.

Part of the reason we gave up so much was because he had just signed a 4 year deal. You never get too much with one year left on the deal, and trading a soon to be 37 year old is unprecedented. AD was traded for a lot with I think 2 years left, but he was like 27 or 28 I think, in his prime.

[wheezy]

"Whitmore, Eason, FVV or Brooks and picks" is giving me nightmare flashbacks of the Barkley to Hou trade in the 90's....

[bwgood77]

"Whitmore, Eason, FVV or Brooks and picks" is giving me nightmare flashbacks of the Barkley to Hou trade in the 90's....

I doubt we have an Horry in the deal.

Generally it seems like you get more in trades these days. But FVV and Brooks are solid players (and we know how much JJ loves Brooks (not Marshon Brooks, but Dillon Brooks) and Eason has a lot of upside and Whitmore looks good too.

Obviously I'd love Sengun and Thompson and maybe we could get Green instead of Brooks or FVV. But this is for one year of KD too.

I still think it's more likely they try and go for Book and we could get a way better deal, and KD would make more sense elsewhere. Minnesota makes the most sense in my head given they have some aging players and need a secondary scorer or a co first option.

Dallas would maybe make sense but not sure they really need him and they have a lot of good role players.

There still may be the possibility of KD for Butler, Kuminga and picks. That might make the most sense if KD decides he is open to it.

Then you have the LA teams, but not sure if they can make a trade work. I don't really see a super young team trading for him.

[Saberestar]

"Whitmore, Eason, FVV or Brooks and picks" is giving me nightmare flashbacks of the Barkley to Hou trade in the 90's....

Well, if we decide to trade KD in the summer we are gonna get more than that. KD is underrated around here.

Just at the deadline we could have got Jimmy Butler + Kuminga + 2 FRPs + swaps with GSW. That's a way better package with Butler staying 2 more years.

And yeah, 3 months will not change his value that much and teams trading for him (with KD being OK) would get him presumably with a two year extension so it wouldn't be for only one year.

But there are 28 games left and we can fight for the playoffs yet, we will have enough time for all of that next summer.

[SkyBill40]

"Whitmore, Eason, FVV or Brooks and picks" is giving me nightmare flashbacks of the Barkley to Hou trade in the 90's....

I doubt we have an Horry in the deal.

Generally it seems like you get more in trades these days. But FVV and Brooks are solid players (and we know how much JJ loves Brooks (not Marshon Brooks, but Dillon Brooks) and Eason has a lot of upside and Whitmore looks good too.

Obviously I'd love Sengun and Thompson and maybe we could get Green instead of Brooks or FVV. But this is for one year of KD too.

I still think it's more likely they try and go for Book and we could get a way better deal, and KD would make more sense elsewhere. Minnesota makes the most sense in my head given they have some aging players and need a secondary scorer or a co first option.

I think there's a lot more talent in general these days; however, more of it seems frosting and less seems like filler if you get my drift. We definitely need a tier 1 guy out of whatever we could get back from HOU. And I still don't see them trading Booker unless he directly asks out. If he does, that'd be a crushing defeat for this team and a quick return to mediocrity along with a cratered fan base. Ishbia thinks it's bad now? Oh, just you wait.

Dallas would maybe make sense but not sure they really need him and they have a lot of good role players.

Doesn't matter so much that they need him and more about just wanting him. They'd figure it out for sure. But does he really want a second dose of Irving?

There still may be the possibility of KD for Butler, Kuminga and picks. That might make the most sense if KD decides he is open to it.

Then you have the LA teams, but not sure if they can make a trade work. I don't really see a super young team trading for him.

Durant has already said no to GS. Why would he change his mind in the summer? Clearly the personnel are the problem and unless Green is sent out for Durant, I don't see him having any interest. We all know how Ishbia has an apparent stiffy for Green and the Michigan State connection just adds to it.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Well I said two picks, and our two unprotected picks in that Rockets trade. Not sure if Ghost was agreeing with that by saying we can't take back 1 or not.

I would possibly take back 1 if we got some premier young talent. Like if we got Amen Thompson, that's definitely worth a first. But that's unlikely.

And it all depends on whether KD will sign for more years where he goes. I can't see a team giving up THAT much for 1 year.

Part of the reason we gave up so much was because he had just signed a 4 year deal. You never get too much with one year left on the deal, and trading a soon to be 37 year old is unprecedented. AD was traded for a lot with I think 2 years left, but he was like 27 or 28 I think, in his prime.

No, I actually was absolutely agreeing with you man. But also sharing my thoughts on a baseline threshold that we need to maintain in order to stop the pattern of getting fleeced in every trade. Now your trade package you mentioned was a good example of our baseline threshold that I'm talking about. And I also agree with you on the premise of a pendulum swing factor in that IF we'd be getting back all three of our 1sts back (not very likely given KDs' age/ contract) then the player inclusion would require less value.


But IF we're only looking at maybe our 27' and 29' firsts, two firsts still being solid of course, I'd demand one of those two 1sts be our 25' 1st. Otherwise the result (to me at least) of giving up a likely top 6 lottery 1st by the end of the season and clearly giving up the best value (player) in the trade would then swing the pendulum to needing greater value from the inclusion of young talent. That being some combination of Smith Jr/ Whitmore or Eason/ Whitmore (as you offered).

However, IF the Rockets try to lowball us and take a hardline stance on a low-value offer, then I'm leveraging some of the other multiple offers with picks that we'll get from teams that'll pursue him hard as well. But yeah, I could be fine (not super ecstatic but still fine) with getting something like two of Houstons' young talents and two of our 1sts back. As long as Houston doesn't try and force us to take only one young prospect with a big salary filler like Van Vleet and maybe Whitmore alone and our two firsts or even just on of our firsts, because that type of package ( Van Vleet/ Landale/ Whitmore/ 1 PHX 27 or 29 1st) would be completely unacceptable!!!

Give me something along the lines of: (don't care about Reed)

Package A- KD for D Brooks/ Landale/Smith/ Whitmore/ PHX 27' 1st/ PHX 29' 1st.
Package B- KD for Van Vleet/ Eason/ Whitmore/ PHX 27' 1st/ 29' 1st.
Package C- KD for Van Vleet/ Landale/ Whitmore/ PHX 25' 1st/ 29' 1st/ 2031 2nd.
** Package C being the lowest value package would require our 25' 1st coming back to replace the missing value of young talent. Whitmore although intriguing with solid upside is only medial value currently, and Van Vleet and Landale are just big salary filler contracts with only Whitmore providing the young upside talent.

Any combination of these three packages I'd accept. But nothing less than these possibilities. Again, IF Houston takes a hardline stance trying to hardball us about EITHER not including our 25' 1st back OR at least two of their young core talent, them I'm immediately pivoting to OKC or San Antonio for their young talent picks package possibilities! And IF Ishbia prioritizes trying to still contend (LOL ) be highly competitive around Booker for another couple of years while ALSO mitigating the value of the draft picks we gave up to Houston, I'm aggressively pivoting to a player-centric package options in this order:

1- Denver.
KD for Porter Jr/ Saric/ Westbrook/ Braun/ Holmes/ Tyson.

There aren't any picks available for us in this trade, but the player package is still premium. Porter Jr could replace KD's role, Westbrook could replace Jones at point guard, Saric could replace Plumlee at backup 5 at least providing passing and floor spacing, Braun would replace Allen at backup SG/SF, allowing us to trade Allen for draft picks/ players, Holms would bee thee legit 3 & D version of Camara/Portis for us at the backup 4/5, and Tyson would replace D Lee giving us an athletic, young, 6'8 - 6'9 floor spacing spot up wing with size. Then we'd get picks from trading Allen and possibly O'nealee to make up the picks not in this trade.

2- Minnesota.
KD for Randle/ Reid/Dillingham/ MIN 32' 1st.
or
KD for Mcdaniels/Reid/DiVencenzo/ Shannon Jr/ Minott/ MIN 32' 1st.

I mainly prefer the Randle/ Reid/ Dillingham package because Randle would give us a big, strong, physical inside post presence that could score and rebound along with an edge too. And would become a valuable $30 million expiring asset next summer if we chose to trade him. Reid has immense value as a versatile backup 4/5 for us, and Dillingham could be mentored by Beal to become our microwave 6th man in the future or could be traded for picks/ assets if we choose. Also, I just don't see Minnesota gutting their roster for KD. It'd be too difficult under this new CBA to fill in the gaps. Their 32' 1st should end up a high lottery pick most likely too. And it would replace the 31' 1st we gave up to Utah.

3- New York.
KD for Bridges/Robinson/Achiuwa/ Mcbride/ Payne (or Kolek).

** The Knicks would still need to cut S760K this summer to do the trade. But they could do that by simply waiving or cutting Shamet, Huktpori, or Wright, or by trading Dadiet for a future pick. I didn't include picks in this because the Knicks picks kind of suck! Also, we'd be getting what I really want anyways in Bridges back and a starting caliber center in Robinson that would allow us to move Richards back to the backup role. Achiuwa and Mcbride could be flipped elsewhere for draft picks/players.


4- Miami.
KD for Rozier/Robinson/ Jovic/Ware/ GS 25' 1st.
Or
KD for Wiggins/ Robinson/ Ware/ Larson/ MIA 28' 1st/ MIA 30' 1st.

Although I'm not inclined to really do Riley any favors, getting KD would really turn their season around. BUT I wouldn't do it under any circumstances without Ware being involved and a 1st coming back too. The Rozier package is excellent value by virtue of including War and Jovic. And the 25' 1st puts it well above any other package other teams might offer. And Rozier and Robinson giving us around $44 million in expiring contracts would also be great for us! Heck, I might do this trade without getting the GS 25' 1st back just on the premise of getting Ware in the deal. But if that's still too rich for them, I'd be willing to let them take out Jovic. But nothing beyond that!


5- Milwaukee.
KD for Kuzma/ Portis/ Connaughton/ Jackson/ Smith/ MIL 31' 1st.

Now this trade would seem kind of surprising and out of left field by a wide Margin. But I absolutely believe the Bucks would jump to do this in a heartbeat BECAUSE OF THEIR DESPERATION to keep/resign Giannis! Now saying that I haven't forgotten how they did us in the Finals. So in turn, I'll happily take their depth and young players and future premium 1st (MIL 31 1st). For the player package, Kuzma is still very young and versatile and aligns more with Books' timeline. And due to his versatility, we could play him at the SF or PF positions in many schemes. Portis could fill our need for a physical slightly edgy rebounding floor spacing 4/5. The underlying value here is easily in getting Jackson who at 6'6 and super athletic, also has underrated playmaking potential and elite defensive potential too. And Tyler Smith though still relatively unknown is a very talented young, fluid, 6'11 power forward with really high upside in the Jabari Smith/ MPJr archetype. Lastly, there 2031 1st is likely to be a high lotto pick for sure!

** Imagine running a big lineup of:

Booker/ Beal/ Kuzma/ Portis/ Richards.
Morris/ Allen/ Dunn/ Broome/ Plumlee.
Or
Booker/Allen/ Dunn/ Kuzma/ Richards.
Morris/ Beal/ O'neale/ Portis/ Plumlee.
And also having a young core of Dunn, Ighodaro, Jackson, and Smith (alternative to Jabari Smith). Plus our draft picks from CLE and DEN 2nd. With our first and second picks in this draft, I'm taking the best elite defensive prospects available in Jojo Tugler and Yaxel Lendeborg. We'll remain pretty competitive while also getting younger, adding more size, athleticism, defensive versatility, and toughness.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Also, as much as people might not believe or understand my reasoning, I might strongly consider (in a young player/picks centric) package, just trading KD to Washington. Because it's his home, he might actually resign there to finish his career surrounded by family. And for us, we could reasonably pull a value package of maybe Smart/ Holmes/ Coulilaby/ PHX 26 pick swap back to us/ PHX pick swap back to us? Overall, I really want Coulilaby and would consider the package without our pick swaps back just for Smart and Coulilaby. But without Coulilaby included, the deal would then become Smart/ Holmes/ Kispert/ PHX 26 and 28 pick swaps back to us.
Or
Middleton/ Holmes/ Carrington/ AJ Johnson/ PHX 26' 1st/ PHX 28' 1st (swaps back to us).

[bwgood77]

"Whitmore, Eason, FVV or Brooks and picks" is giving me nightmare flashbacks of the Barkley to Hou trade in the 90's....

I doubt we have an Horry in the deal.

Generally it seems like you get more in trades these days. But FVV and Brooks are solid players (and we know how much JJ loves Brooks (not Marshon Brooks, but Dillon Brooks) and Eason has a lot of upside and Whitmore looks good too.

Obviously I'd love Sengun and Thompson and maybe we could get Green instead of Brooks or FVV. But this is for one year of KD too.

I still think it's more likely they try and go for Book and we could get a way better deal, and KD would make more sense elsewhere. Minnesota makes the most sense in my head given they have some aging players and need a secondary scorer or a co first option.

I think there's a lot more talent in general these days; however, more of it seems frosting and less seems like filler if you get my drift. We definitely need a tier 1 guy out of whatever we could get back from HOU. And I still don't see them trading Booker unless he directly asks out. If he does, that'd be a crushing defeat for this team and a quick return to mediocrity along with a cratered fan base. Ishbia thinks it's bad now? Oh, just you wait.

Dallas would maybe make sense but not sure they really need him and they have a lot of good role players.

Doesn't matter so much that they need him and more about just wanting him. They'd figure it out for sure. But does he really want a second dose of Irving?

There still may be the possibility of KD for Butler, Kuminga and picks. That might make the most sense if KD decides he is open to it.

Then you have the LA teams, but not sure if they can make a trade work. I don't really see a super young team trading for him.

Durant has already said no to GS. Why would he change his mind in the summer? Clearly the personnel are the problem and unless Green is sent out for Durant, I don't see him having any interest. We all know how Ishbia has an apparent stiffy for Green and the Michigan State connection just adds to it.

I don't think we will trade Book unless he asks either, but I think Houston will go for him...try to trade for him, talk to his agent, etc.

Why would KD change his mind? Because he realizes he doesn't want to play for the Suns and there are not many other options out there, and he knows the area. I don't really know, but that deal could still be on the table for him if he decides that might be more desirable after all. I mean his answer was no because he wanted to stay in Phx. If he realizes he is getting out I don't know if he'd prefer playing with younger players or guys he knows. I think he'd like Dallas but not sure that works. If so, we could get a 25 pick and maybe a big and someone like Marshall or Christie. But we'd have to take back Klay.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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[TeamTragic]

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Not really hard. Either we move Beal/sign Kyrie or trade KD.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Does anyone else think this is really cool? And could help coaches study in-game mistakes/lapses as well as possibly improving challenges/ reviews and out-of-timeout strategy on the sidelines if implemented further?

[SunsRback4Good]

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Not really hard. Either we move Beal/sign Kyrie or trade KD.

Or trade everyone and go full on rebuild. Bring in young players who will give 100% effort.

[dremill24]

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Does anyone else think this is really cool? And could help coaches study in-game mistakes/lapses as well as possibly improving challenges/ reviews and out-of-timeout strategy on the sidelines if implemented further?

It's cool but it's not really giving you any additional tools you can't get on a computer for coaches & such unless you're incorporating a whole lot of interactive functionality & simulations like Iron Man

[SkyBill40]

...snipped for clarity...

Why would KD change his mind? Because he realizes he doesn't want to play for the Suns and there are not many other options out there, and he knows the area. I don't really know, but that deal could still be on the table for him if he decides that might be more desirable after all. I mean his answer was no because he wanted to stay in Phx. If he realizes he is getting out I don't know if he'd prefer playing with younger players or guys he knows. I think he'd like Dallas but not sure that works. If so, we could get a 25 pick and maybe a big and someone like Marshall or Christie. But we'd have to take back Klay.

I suppose KD and Ishbia could come together and mend fences, but I don't see either of them being willing to get over it. This is lame by both parties, but it is what it is at this point: A failed business transaction.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[BobbieL]

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Not really hard. Either we move Beal/sign Kyrie or trade KD.

Or trade everyone and go full on rebuild. Bring in young players who will give 100% effort.

Not sure the conversations are hard at all. Its just rip the band-off, get with reality, trade Booker, Durant, O'Neal and Allen. Let Beals contract expire or maybe in the summer of 2026 it is more attractive and roll with it building a new tea,m