The Bulls roster and roles going forward

[Hangtime84]

When's the next conceivable timeframe we could sign a max fa

After 2026 - 2027 season.

So one more full season of this. Also that's in line with the new TV deal money coming in.

Isn't it after the 25-26 season? With Vuc, Coby, Huerter, etc expiring?

I was looking one more ahead by mistake here
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/yearly

[WindyCityBorn]

I like the '27 plan. I think it jives with my notion of picking up some 2 year "bad" contracts (plus additional compensation by way of first round picks or young assets) in the offseason in exchange for our "good" expiring ones.

Bulls have been trying to woo superstar free agents in their primes for the last 25 years. Why would 2027 be any different than the last 4 or 5 times we had “full boat” cap space?

I could see us being fools and signing someone from that washed up list to a max contract and watch them immediately pull a Paul George.

That strategy has actually worked quite well for the Bulls, despite missing out on the primary targets.

Your definition of working out well differs from mine considering our putrid performance post dynasty.

[League Circles]

Bulls have been trying to woo superstar free agents in their primes for the last 25 years. Why would 2027 be any different than the last 4 or 5 times we had “full boat” cap space?

I could see us being fools and signing someone from that washed up list to a max contract and watch them immediately pull a Paul George.

That strategy has actually worked quite well for the Bulls, despite missing out on the primary targets.

Your definition of working out well differs from mine considering our putrid performance post dynasty.

It's pretty straightforward. They had substantially improved team performance immediately following most of the Summers in which they chased major free agents with cap space.

2006
2010
2014

[MrSparkle]

I like the '27 plan. I think it jives with my notion of picking up some 2 year "bad" contracts (plus additional compensation by way of first round picks or young assets) in the offseason in exchange for our "good" expiring ones.

Bulls have been trying to woo superstar free agents in their primes for the last 25 years. Why would 2027 be any different than the last 4 or 5 times we had “full boat” cap space?

I could see us being fools and signing someone from that washed up list to a max contract and watch them immediately pull a Paul George.

That strategy has actually worked quite well for the Bulls, despite missing out on the primary targets.

It’s true. Whatever limited success the Bulls have had, their only deep playoff appearances have been immediately after big cap FA summers:

2007
2011
2015

Unfortunately the blow-back/decline after each promising 1st season was bad, although Rose’s ACL hampered that era (as well as Lonzo’s, which at the very least looked like a 2nd round caliber team).

The morale of the story is to avoid overpaying the washed short-lived steroid shots (Big Ben, Boozer, Wade).

Although I can’t complain about Demar, Pau and Rondo. Good bargain short signings. Wish Demar didn’t cost draft capital.

But the only success this FO has had, has arguably been in recruiting free agents: Lonzo, Demar, Caruso, Jalen, even the min. pickups like Goran, Drummond. Just saying , the 27 FA class is very heavy. Might be a rare situation where Chicago can have an advantage over Miami, if they get this next draft-core right… and don’t blow their cap on Pat/Coby/Giddey.

[WindyCityBorn]

Bulls have been trying to woo superstar free agents in their primes for the last 25 years. Why would 2027 be any different than the last 4 or 5 times we had “full boat” cap space?

I could see us being fools and signing someone from that washed up list to a max contract and watch them immediately pull a Paul George.

That strategy has actually worked quite well for the Bulls, despite missing out on the primary targets.

It’s true. Whatever limited success the Bulls have had, their only deep playoff appearances have been immediately after big cap FA summers:

2007
2011
2015

Unfortunately the blow-back/decline after each promising 1st season was bad, although Rose’s ACL hampered that era (as well as Lonzo’s, which at the very least looked like a 2nd round caliber team).

The morale of the story is to avoid overpaying the washed short-lived steroid shots (Big Ben, Boozer, Wade).

Although I can’t complain about Demar, Pau and Rondo. Good bargain short signings. Wish Demar didn’t cost draft capital.

But the only success this FO has had, has arguably been in recruiting free agents: Lonzo, Demar, Caruso, Jalen, even the min. pickups like Goran, Drummond. Just saying , the 27 FA class is very heavy. Might be a rare situation where Chicago can have an advantage over Miami, if they get this next draft-core right… and don’t blow their cap on Pat/Coby/Giddey.

Coby is gone. Giddey won’t break the bank. Pat we’re stuck with.

[League Circles]

That strategy has actually worked quite well for the Bulls, despite missing out on the primary targets.

It’s true. Whatever limited success the Bulls have had, their only deep playoff appearances have been immediately after big cap FA summers:

2007
2011
2015

Unfortunately the blow-back/decline after each promising 1st season was bad, although Rose’s ACL hampered that era (as well as Lonzo’s, which at the very least looked like a 2nd round caliber team).

The morale of the story is to avoid overpaying the washed short-lived steroid shots (Big Ben, Boozer, Wade).

Although I can’t complain about Demar, Pau and Rondo. Good bargain short signings. Wish Demar didn’t cost draft capital.

But the only success this FO has had, has arguably been in recruiting free agents: Lonzo, Demar, Caruso, Jalen, even the min. pickups like Goran, Drummond. Just saying , the 27 FA class is very heavy. Might be a rare situation where Chicago can have an advantage over Miami, if they get this next draft-core right… and don’t blow their cap on Pat/Coby/Giddey.

Coby is gone. Giddey won’t break the bank. Pat we’re stuck with.

Will Giddey not break the bank in the same way that Luol Deng didn't break it in 2010, but as a significantly lesser player?

[MrSparkle]

Giddey isn’t signing a long term contract under $20m. Lauri didn’t , and Giddey won’t either. He wanted $30M. He’s not coming down 50%, even if his season ends even worse. He’ll just leave.

[League Circles]

Giddey isn’t signing a long term contract under $20m. Lauri didn’t , and Giddey won’t either. He wanted $30M. He’s not coming down 50%, even if his season ends even worse. He’ll just leave.

I heavily doubt he'd play on the QO and risk losing tens of millions of dollars. Lauri did in fact sign his deal after his rookie contract for 15 million a year for 2 or 3 years or whatever it was before his current deal.

Giddey will do what almost everybody does and take the best deal he can get, which hopefully is pretty small. Every single player wants the max. The idea that he wanted $30 mil a year is absolutely meaningless. His agent will try to get the best offer he can from the Bulls and simultaneously try to get a better offer from other teams.

[Red8911]

Giddey isn’t signing a long term contract under $20m. Lauri didn’t , and Giddey won’t either. He wanted $30M. He’s not coming down 50%, even if his season ends even worse. He’ll just leave.

I heavily doubt he'd play on the QO and risk losing tens of millions of dollars. Lauri did in fact sign his deal after his rookie contract for 15 million a year for 2 or 3 years or whatever it was before his current deal.

Giddey will do what almost everybody does and take the best deal he can get, which hopefully is pretty small. Every single player wants the max. The idea that he wanted $30 mil a year is absolutely meaningless. His agent will try to get the best offer he can from the Bulls and simultaneously try to get a better offer from other teams.

Honestly which team is dying to get Giddey and willing to overpay for him ? I don’t think teams will be lining up for him, maybe a couple but for less money.

Maybe I’m wrong, who knows. Giddey is one of those players who looks like a very good player and a scrub in the same game.

[WindyCityBorn]

It’s true. Whatever limited success the Bulls have had, their only deep playoff appearances have been immediately after big cap FA summers:

2007
2011
2015

Unfortunately the blow-back/decline after each promising 1st season was bad, although Rose’s ACL hampered that era (as well as Lonzo’s, which at the very least looked like a 2nd round caliber team).

The morale of the story is to avoid overpaying the washed short-lived steroid shots (Big Ben, Boozer, Wade).

Although I can’t complain about Demar, Pau and Rondo. Good bargain short signings. Wish Demar didn’t cost draft capital.

But the only success this FO has had, has arguably been in recruiting free agents: Lonzo, Demar, Caruso, Jalen, even the min. pickups like Goran, Drummond. Just saying , the 27 FA class is very heavy. Might be a rare situation where Chicago can have an advantage over Miami, if they get this next draft-core right… and don’t blow their cap on Pat/Coby/Giddey.

Coby is gone. Giddey won’t break the bank. Pat we’re stuck with.

Will Giddey not break the bank in the same way that Luol Deng didn't break it in 2010, but as a significantly lesser player?

You can’t compare 2010 contract to 2025. I can’t see Giddey getting a contract that will hamstring us regardless. He could very well end up on a a shorter value deal like Coby and Ayo. That’s probably the most likely outcome now.

[League Circles]

Coby is gone. Giddey won’t break the bank. Pat we’re stuck with.

Will Giddey not break the bank in the same way that Luol Deng didn't break it in 2010, but as a significantly lesser player?

You can’t compare 2010 contract to 2025. I can’t see Giddey getting a contract that will hamstring us regardless. He could very well end up on a a shorter value deal like Coby and Ayo. That’s probably the most likely outcome now.

My point was just that even a seemingly reasonable contract for a quality player (which Giddey hasn't really established himself as, in contrast to Deng in 2010) can absolutely screw you in free agency. Deng's contract may very well have cost us a historic dynasty, as it has since come out that Lebron/Wade/Bosh would absolutely have strongly considered coming to the Bulls if we could have paid them what the Heat could, but we couldn't, because of Deng's deal. If not for that, IMO they would indeed have chosen to join Derrick Rose and Noah over Udonis Haslem and Mario Chalmers. Of course that's a pretty severe example, but the point is that every dollar counts. Giddey making even 15 million a year is something like 65 or 70 million bucks that we then can't offer to an actual good player (on a 4 year deal).

IMO, Giddey isn't good enough to risk that on, even if it's somewhat unlikely to end up being critical. Especially now that we have Ball, and especially if we keep Coby and/or Ayo for at least another year. Not to mention Jevon Carter could probably command the tank quite well.

[WindyCityBorn]

Will Giddey not break the bank in the same way that Luol Deng didn't break it in 2010, but as a significantly lesser player?

You can’t compare 2010 contract to 2025. I can’t see Giddey getting a contract that will hamstring us regardless. He could very well end up on a a shorter value deal like Coby and Ayo. That’s probably the most likely outcome now.

My point was just that even a seemingly reasonable contract for a quality player (which Giddey hasn't really established himself as, in contrast to Deng in 2010) can absolutely screw you in free agency. Deng's contract may very well have cost us a historic dynasty, as it has since come out that Lebron/Wade/Bosh would absolutely have strongly considered coming to the Bulls if we could have paid them what the Heat could, but we couldn't, because of Deng's deal. If not for that, IMO they would indeed have chosen to join Derrick Rose and Noah over Udonis Haslem and Mario Chalmers. Of course that's a pretty severe example, but the point is that every dollar counts. Giddey making even 15 million a year is something like 65 or 70 million bucks that we then can't offer to an actual good player (on a 4 year deal).

IMO, Giddey isn't good enough to risk that on, even if it's somewhat unlikely to end up being critical. Especially now that we have Ball, and especially if we keep Coby and/or Ayo for at least another year. Not to mention Jevon Carter could probably command the tank quite well.

We are not giving up one up on Giddey to pursue some pie in the sky strategy three off-seasons from now. We have no Derrick Rose superstar talent to entice star players here.You conveniently leave out that part of the story. Maybe if we win the lottery and get Flagg we can think about a situation like what we had with Rose. As of now Chicago is a bottom 10 free agent destination.

And why can’t Coby, Giddey and Ayo be on the team NEXT seasons? Coby and Ayo are both expiring contracts and I doubt Coby gets another contract from us.

[WesPeace]

For next season, keepers :
Matas, Ball, Ayo, PWill (one last chance as he goes back to more rookie like body, leaner, faster), Smith

Maybe keep :
Giddey (if signed under 15M per), Phillips

Trade :
Vucevic, White, Huerter, Collins, Carter

Dont care :
Terry, Jones, THT, Carter

Starting lineup of course it will depends on trades, draft, FA.. but URGENT thing for me is also NEW coach and someone replacing worthless AKME!

For now from what we have,starting lineup :
Ball, Ayo, Williams, Buzelis, Smith
Giddey as 6th man.. backup wing Phillips

[League Circles]

You can’t compare 2010 contract to 2025. I can’t see Giddey getting a contract that will hamstring us regardless. He could very well end up on a a shorter value deal like Coby and Ayo. That’s probably the most likely outcome now.

My point was just that even a seemingly reasonable contract for a quality player (which Giddey hasn't really established himself as, in contrast to Deng in 2010) can absolutely screw you in free agency. Deng's contract may very well have cost us a historic dynasty, as it has since come out that Lebron/Wade/Bosh would absolutely have strongly considered coming to the Bulls if we could have paid them what the Heat could, but we couldn't, because of Deng's deal. If not for that, IMO they would indeed have chosen to join Derrick Rose and Noah over Udonis Haslem and Mario Chalmers. Of course that's a pretty severe example, but the point is that every dollar counts. Giddey making even 15 million a year is something like 65 or 70 million bucks that we then can't offer to an actual good player (on a 4 year deal).

IMO, Giddey isn't good enough to risk that on, even if it's somewhat unlikely to end up being critical. Especially now that we have Ball, and especially if we keep Coby and/or Ayo for at least another year. Not to mention Jevon Carter could probably command the tank quite well.

We are not giving up one up on Giddey to pursue some pie in the sky strategy three off-seasons from now. We have no Derrick Rose superstar talent to entice star players here.You conveniently leave out that part of the story. Maybe if we win the lottery and get Flagg we can think about a situation like what we had with Rose. As of now Chicago is a bottom 10 free agent destination.

And why can’t Coby, Giddey and Ayo be on the team NEXT seasons? Coby and Ayo are both expiring contracts and I doubt Coby gets another contract from us.

Rose wasn't the primary draw. It would have been playing together for the 3 amigos. Rose would have just been a bonus for them.

Success is pie-in-the-sky, period.

Giddey isn't a special player and doesn't project to be one. I'm not gonna be furious if we re-sign him to something reasonable, but in general I think commiting to him sets a pretty hard ceiling for us. It means guaranteeing a bad defender with a child's jump shot controlling the ball. That's not how great teams look.

I don't understand what you're saying about Coby and Ayo. Obviously they're under contract and Giddey might be too. Those 3 plus Ball are unnecessary harmful to our tank next season and if we're not gonna keep ANY player long term, I don't particularly want them here next season. So if we re-sign Giddey especially, that makes me all the more willing to trade Coby and Ayo. But I think those two are significantly more versatile and flexible players long-term as well as possibly cheaper than giddy even on their next contracts. The fact that they would naturally expire when we might want to take a dive into free agency is just a perfect coincidence relative to giddy.

I also definitely think Chicago is better than a bottom 10 free agent destination. I think players care a lot less about winning than some other fans do.

[jnrjr79]

Giddey isn’t signing a long term contract under $20m. Lauri didn’t , and Giddey won’t either. He wanted $30M. He’s not coming down 50%, even if his season ends even worse. He’ll just leave.

So if the Bulls won’t pay him $20M, your view is “he’ll just leave…” for the $14M MLE with some other team? Or just play a prove-it year?

I highly doubt it. Guys don’t screw around very often with their first big long-term contract opportunity.

[sco]

Giddey isn’t signing a long term contract under $20m. Lauri didn’t , and Giddey won’t either. He wanted $30M. He’s not coming down 50%, even if his season ends even worse. He’ll just leave.

So if the Bulls won’t pay him $20M, your view is “he’ll just leave…” for the $14M MLE with some other team? Or just play a prove-it year?

I highly doubt it. Guys don’t screw around very often with their first big long-term contract opportunity.

You're right. Here's the thing, his agent has to have a decent sense of his market value. IMO, he has to know that Giddey isn't a budding allstar, and there are probably teams out there who will shy away from him due to his statutory rape matter. I think the right thing for the Bulls to do is to play hardball and let him go get an offer and say they'll match it, but I suspect they'll put a deal out there in between Coby's and Pat's deals, and he'll take it.

[Tetlak]

My 2C is that the 2027 FA class is going to be the best since ... 2019, when Durant, Kawhi, Kyrie, Jimmy and a bunch of other guys were hitting the market at the same time.

I can only hope to the stars that Arturas is strategically eyeing that year as the time to strike, with the LaVine trade (bringing in Huerter/Collins... $36M of 2026 expirings to join Vuc and the rest of the roster). I believe he needs to dump Jalen and Patrick to really open that cap, and neither player is important enough to block that potential FA space.

If he resigns Giddey, Coby and Ayo to extensions beyond 2027, I'll officially conclude he just has no great ambitions with this roster. Cause unlike the last few years, I think unrestricted free agency is going to be back on the menu as a few late-prime vets have their last big FA decision ahead of them.

Of course Luka and Davis 99% likely resign with their new teams. But for the record, that's their FA summer too. It also means Dallas and LAL won't have cap-space. The bad news is Miami's positioned well for 27 space, IF they dump Bam for expirings and picks (which could easily be done). Still, the options are staggering, unless every guy signs a supermax and stays home.

1st tier: Jokic, Giannis, Shai
2nd: Trae, Mitchell, KAT

Washed/Past-Prime tier: Curry, Lillard, Jimmy, Kawhi, George, Gobert, Jrue... And many more fringe/1-2x all-stars.

It's going to be an insane summer. Now of course everybody might sign an extension... But I'm getting the sense that players will re-examine their destinations as we enter a new era, and if Dallas (for whatever dumb reason) hesitated super maxing Luka, you have to imagine the aging guys with no help will also be reconsidered.

Arturas has the Jokic connection. Marc had the "player relationships." Pretty much, it's gonna come down to that summer. If they can't make anything of it, then that's that. No reason to keep them beyond that summer.

Bulls could be in position to have a Matas, 25 & 26 (top-10) picks core. That means, all the rest of the guys right now need to be treated as expiring 2027 salary. Signing Giddey, Coby and Ayo beyond 27 (barre preposterously undervalued deals) would be a HUGE MISTAKE. Keeping Pat and Jalen beyond next year will also be a mistake. I wish I had more faith in Arcturas, but I fear they'll stay on the same road of nothingness.

I like the '27 plan. I think it jives with my notion of picking up some 2 year "bad" contracts (plus additional compensation by way of first round picks or young assets) in the offseason in exchange for our "good" expiring ones.

Well, good in theory, but might be late to get in on that. This deadline would’ve been the time to MORE aggressively move that direction. (Adding 1y salary with Vuc… maybe getting ahead/out of Jalen and Pat’smoney).

Now we’ll have to compete with Brooklyn, Miami, Washington and Utah offering the same incentive.

Why would anyone sign here?

Franchise is a dumpster fire and we suck. Those guys are all getting supermaxed.

[WindyCityBorn]

I like the '27 plan. I think it jives with my notion of picking up some 2 year "bad" contracts (plus additional compensation by way of first round picks or young assets) in the offseason in exchange for our "good" expiring ones.

Well, good in theory, but might be late to get in on that. This deadline would’ve been the time to MORE aggressively move that direction. (Adding 1y salary with Vuc… maybe getting ahead/out of Jalen and Pat’smoney).

Now we’ll have to compete with Brooklyn, Miami, Washington and Utah offering the same incentive.

Why would anyone sign here?

Franchise is a dumpster fire and we suck. Those guys are all getting supermaxed.

Massive amounts of cope about how badly down this franchise is.

[WindyCityBorn]

My point was just that even a seemingly reasonable contract for a quality player (which Giddey hasn't really established himself as, in contrast to Deng in 2010) can absolutely screw you in free agency. Deng's contract may very well have cost us a historic dynasty, as it has since come out that Lebron/Wade/Bosh would absolutely have strongly considered coming to the Bulls if we could have paid them what the Heat could, but we couldn't, because of Deng's deal. If not for that, IMO they would indeed have chosen to join Derrick Rose and Noah over Udonis Haslem and Mario Chalmers. Of course that's a pretty severe example, but the point is that every dollar counts. Giddey making even 15 million a year is something like 65 or 70 million bucks that we then can't offer to an actual good player (on a 4 year deal).

IMO, Giddey isn't good enough to risk that on, even if it's somewhat unlikely to end up being critical. Especially now that we have Ball, and especially if we keep Coby and/or Ayo for at least another year. Not to mention Jevon Carter could probably command the tank quite well.

We are not giving up one up on Giddey to pursue some pie in the sky strategy three off-seasons from now. We have no Derrick Rose superstar talent to entice star players here.You conveniently leave out that part of the story. Maybe if we win the lottery and get Flagg we can think about a situation like what we had with Rose. As of now Chicago is a bottom 10 free agent destination.

And why can’t Coby, Giddey and Ayo be on the team NEXT seasons? Coby and Ayo are both expiring contracts and I doubt Coby gets another contract from us.

Rose wasn't the primary draw. It would have been playing together for the 3 amigos. Rose would have just been a bonus for them.

Success is pie-in-the-sky, period.

Giddey isn't a special player and doesn't project to be one. I'm not gonna be furious if we re-sign him to something reasonable, but in general I think commiting to him sets a pretty hard ceiling for us. It means guaranteeing a bad defender with a child's jump shot controlling the ball. That's not how great teams look.

I don't understand what you're saying about Coby and Ayo. Obviously they're under contract and Giddey might be too. Those 3 plus Ball are unnecessary harmful to our tank next season and if we're not gonna keep ANY player long term, I don't particularly want them here next season. So if we re-sign Giddey especially, that makes me all the more willing to trade Coby and Ayo. But I think those two are significantly more versatile and flexible players long-term as well as possibly cheaper than giddy even on their next contracts. The fact that they would naturally expire when we might want to take a dive into free agency is just a perfect coincidence relative to giddy.

I also definitely think Chicago is better than a bottom 10 free agent destination. I think players care a lot less about winning than some other fans do.

Miami is a more attractive free agent destination than Chicago and has been for a while. Those three were never coming here and the only reason Boozer took less money than he could have gotten was to play with Rose.

We are not the Lakers.

[League Circles]

We are not giving up one up on Giddey to pursue some pie in the sky strategy three off-seasons from now. We have no Derrick Rose superstar talent to entice star players here.You conveniently leave out that part of the story. Maybe if we win the lottery and get Flagg we can think about a situation like what we had with Rose. As of now Chicago is a bottom 10 free agent destination.

And why can’t Coby, Giddey and Ayo be on the team NEXT seasons? Coby and Ayo are both expiring contracts and I doubt Coby gets another contract from us.

Rose wasn't the primary draw. It would have been playing together for the 3 amigos. Rose would have just been a bonus for them.

Success is pie-in-the-sky, period.

Giddey isn't a special player and doesn't project to be one. I'm not gonna be furious if we re-sign him to something reasonable, but in general I think commiting to him sets a pretty hard ceiling for us. It means guaranteeing a bad defender with a child's jump shot controlling the ball. That's not how great teams look.

I don't understand what you're saying about Coby and Ayo. Obviously they're under contract and Giddey might be too. Those 3 plus Ball are unnecessary harmful to our tank next season and if we're not gonna keep ANY player long term, I don't particularly want them here next season. So if we re-sign Giddey especially, that makes me all the more willing to trade Coby and Ayo. But I think those two are significantly more versatile and flexible players long-term as well as possibly cheaper than giddy even on their next contracts. The fact that they would naturally expire when we might want to take a dive into free agency is just a perfect coincidence relative to giddy.

I also definitely think Chicago is better than a bottom 10 free agent destination. I think players care a lot less about winning than some other fans do.

Miami is a more attractive free agent destination than Chicago and has been for a while. Those three were never coming here and the only reason Boozer took less money than he could have gotten was to play with Rose.

We are not the Lakers.

Of course we're not the Lakers or Miami as a physical destination. Didn't say we were. But we're not currently a bottom 10 destination. Many things factor into free agent appeal. Pretty sure at least Wade admitted that they strongly considered Chicago and that Chicago's inability to pay the trio what Miami could was a big factor. If you remove Deng's contract from the equation, the Bulls could have paid them what Miami did, but offer significantly better pieces to join in Rose and Noah. Would that be enough to offset Miami as a location vs Chicago? Who knows, I'm definitely not saying that they for sure would have come here, but there was never any chance that the three of them were going to come here as long as we had Deng's contract on the books.

Would be fun if we could travel forward in time and ask a FA in 2026 or 2027 if they would rather join a team with Josh Giddey, or join a team without Josh Giddey while getting his entire salary added to their offer. And that's the actual issue / alternative. It's not about whether it "breaks the bank" or not. It's about whether those dollars benefit the Bulls more to pay to Josh Giddey or someone else TBD. IMO, considering we have Lonzo for 2 years if we want, plus Coby and Ayo for at least next year, plus maybe a notable point prospect in the next draft or two, plus plausible ability to add impact free agents, the answer is generally NOT Giddey. It's a gamble either way, but I just don't see him as a special player.