The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[Alatan]

This isn’t true. Murray played like an all star in the playoffs in the 2019-2020 season in which they didn’t win. You could argue he played better this season than their championship run

Murray played great in those runs, but there is still a reason why he's talked about as a guy who can "play like an all star" rather than being an All Star. The 2020 run was 19 games. The 2023 title run was 20. Between them, Murray failed to score 20 points 14 times (7 times a year). To put that in perspective, SGA had 6 sub 20 point games all last season. And those low scoring games weren't due to Murray not taking shots as others were scoring. They generally were mid to high teens in attempts and 40s, 30s, 20% range for FG%. 7 of those games he had less points than field goal attempts.

So basically in a bit more than 1/3 of the two playoff runs that people hold up as All Star Murray, he wasn't very good. But in another 1/3 he scored 30 or more and in 5 of those games he scored 40 or more (though 3 of those 5 were in the first series of 2020 against Utah, he's only had 2 since, both exactly 40).

That's the duality of Murray. He's an amazing shot maker when he's on, but isn't great at drawing fouls or getting easy buckets, so when he's off, he's really off and will sometimes shoot you out of the game. He's an OK passer, but better as a secondary passer with Jokic than as the offensive originator, so the Nuggets have never been quite as successful staggering star minutes as they'd like. He's pretty strong for his size and will fight on defense, especially against bigger guys, but isn't a particularly good defender (and looked bad earlier this year, but has improved).

So basically, Murray is a good to very good player who is awesome to watch when he's on. And on those "on" days, he can score with anyone in the league, but who has more off days and less broad excellence than the tier of guards above him. I'm a fan of Murray, but there wasn't a year where I ever thought that he was robbed of an All Star birth, though in any single game, he can go head to head with almost any of those guys.

I’m not disagreeing with you that he’s streaky. Definitely seems to be the case, but saying he scored under 20 points a certain amount of times is just odd to say. Looking at his game logs in the playoffs from 2020 he did some things that most guards would dream of

2 50 point games
2 40+ point games
50/45/90 through those measly 19 games

I think we’re basically saying the same thing. I just don’t think people give him enough respect. And I think a lot of that is used to prop up Jokic, which I don’t think he needs that

You think people dont give him enough respect because you dont watch him dribble the air out of the ball, look of open teammates and then chuck a contorted, turnaround jumper over a defender only to miss the whole basket that leads to transition points. And then watch it again 10times in the same game.

[Exp0sed]

Well to be fair, they were a couple Murray plays last year away from maybe being a first round exit. What bothers me is using his sometimes poor history rather than how he actually played.

Dude had 2 amazing playoffs runs, better than most guards in the NBA right now and you still have people saying Jokic never played with an all star. The all star thing is true but does that really hold merit to anything?

The way people word it makes it seem like he’s never had legit help for any playoff run ever. I know you’re not one of those judging by this conversation, but I see it a lot.

there's context tho. i mean, this dialogoue between us started with me commenting to the troll that wrote: "The real MVP's in the past either carried their teams to a near top seed or didn't get awarded MVP. Jokic has been getting awards for absolute empty stat team mediocrity in the regular season."

he was specifically talking about MVP and RS and to that I commented that he's the only MVP to have never played (in the rs) with another all-star, and yes that statement holds alot of merit in the context of rebutting these awful troll takes, no?

[kazyv]

Some of these too good not to post on here. The best part about this site is watching people just expose themselves.

"With Nikola Jokić off the floor, the Denver Nuggets' offensive rating is 86.3 - the worst in NBA history.
With Jokić on the floor, their offensive rating is 125.8 - the best in NBA history."

BS stat this early in the season. This guy gets way too much credit from all the casual Stans. He's a great player but he's been elevated due to injury luck - the guys better than him like Luka, Giannis and Embiid deal with injuries to themselves and their teams while jokic gets to keep running up the stats thanks to iron man genetics.

Iron man merchant

[nomansland]

Im confused

Arent Denver fans the ones saying the GM sucks and Jokic has no help?

Which is it?

Murray, MPJ, and Gordon seems like a very good 2-4 (on top of the best player in the world) and then a couple other role guys like Braun and Russ)

For the first part of the year the narrative was that Denver's reserves suck, and that was on Booth for having constructed a wack roster. Jokic was carrying the team on his back every night and vibes were not good.

But lately injuries have forced Malone to play the deep bench more and we're seeing some growth, especially from Pickett and Nnaji. Jordan has looked pretty good for a 50 year-old, so the need for a backup 5 might not be so urgent. Porter and Murray have been playing a lot better. Strawther is streaky but can light it up. Gordon's back, at 80% of his explosiveness but he's shooting over 40% from 3 and close to 80% from the line, and he's throwing a lot of nice passes. Not to mention Braun, who is emerging as one of the best transition guards in the league.

So that's what's behind the post. Things are looking good, vibes are good. When Westbrook and Watson are back we may even say the team is deep. The challenge will be on Malone to be flexible and creative and make the best use of it.

But they have a tough stretch after the all-star break and very few easy games the rest of the season, so I'm not getting too high yet. They have to beat a bunch of mid-tier teams and hold their own against some elite ones.

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/den/denver-nuggets

[hugolizard]

Murray is as streaky of a player as you can find in the NBA. He can score 50 one game and then shoot 30% the next couple of games. Fact is overall as a player he’s never been an all star and tbh never been close. He was not once on anyone’s all star snubbed list. Now how many great players have won without an all star Batman?

[nomansland]

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

Him being a low IQ player is a fact?

How would you justify that?

[nomansland]

The thing I hate the most about these sorts of threads is the "he's never played with an All-Star!" Does being an all-star really matter?

The whole selection process is imperfect and full of biases, and players can not be all-stars and still be really good when it counts. They can also not be standouts but still fit together very well as a team.

Being an all-star doesn't matter. At all.

[Lalouie]

was it "he had no help"
or
"he had to carry the team because a couple of players were playing below par"
or
he's so damn great that it just seems like he's doing everyone's job

[shangrila]

I assume someone has already posted this but just in case it hasn't, here's their last 10 games:

CHI
NYK
PHI
CHA (CLT?)
NOP
NOP
ORL
PHO
POR
POR

Only the Knicks, who they lost to, are guaranteed a playoff spot right now (ORL and CHI are in the playin too, no one else is). Except for New York, none of these teams have a positive on-off differential either.

Credit to the Nuggets for taking care of business but using this weak stretch as an indicator of anything is stupid.

[Optms]

Murray is as streaky of a player as you can find in the NBA. He can score 50 one game and then shoot 30% the next couple of games. Fact is overall as a player he’s never been an all star and tbh never been close. He was not once on anyone’s all star snubbed list. Now how many great players have won without an all star Batman?

Because he's trash in the regular season. It's the post season when he suddenly decided to turn into Allen Iverson or Steph Curry. If you can stop Murray, or he stops himself, then the Nuggets become a breeze match up. He's the X factor. Always has been.

[Wargreymon]

I mean he still has no help. Jamal murray was olympics trash. Porter Jr has back problems. It’s literally Jokic by himself every game beating entire 15 man rosters plus 3 corrupt officials every night.

Now he has to fight all the media wanting to give free throw merchant Shai the MVP over him because of voter fatigue.

Nuggets turning their season around has everything to do with Jokic and not the failed Olympics Murray who quit on Canada.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again. He's been lucky that the guy that's been competing against him in Embiid was one of the biggest superstar busts in history. Jokic looks good next to him.

9 likes for this BS rant? really?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

In their last 10 games...

MPJ: 24.4 points / 7.4 rebounds / 43.1 3P%
Murray: 26 points / 6.7 assists / 3.8 rebounds
CB: 19.5 points / 7.2 rebounds / 3.4 assists

Remember all the RealGMers saying Denver has the worst FO and is absolutely failing Jokic? Remember everyone saying Nuggets are cooked in November?

This supporting cast is terrible for an ATG and Nuggets management performance is about as bad as I've seen since the horror that was KG-Minn

As an aside, in the modern NBA the numbers you listed aren't that impressive for a 10 game stretch. Lots of players now put up numbers like the above for 10games.

this is just BS.
The Nuggets have enough talent, considering the limitations of being in a small market.
Compare that to the teams Minnesota had after 04

[Ryoga Hibiki]

This supporting cast is terrible for an ATG and Nuggets management performance is about as bad as I've seen since the horror that was KG-Minn

As an aside, in the modern NBA the numbers you listed aren't that impressive for a 10 game stretch. Lots of players now put up numbers like the above for 10games.

I don't think you know what terrible means.

I said terrible "for an ATG." Look at the type of players who are Jokic's peers and see who they played with in their prime and then compare it to what Jokic has now.

KG-Minnesota is the only one that is clearly worse IMO.

I'll just add if you really believe Jokic's supporting cast is strong, then you have to concede the Jokic critics have a point. If you pair "the best player of his generation" with a very strong supporting cast you should end up acheiving more than Denver has.

Both things can't be true: Denver's supporting cast is elite and Jokic is a GOAT level player.

Dirk's wasn’t better, for most of his career. Hakeem's neither.
Moreover, it's not realistic for a team in a small market to create a superteam via the draft. In particular with this CBA.

[Alatan]

The only good player on the Nuggets beside Jokic is Braun. The rest of the bunch are overrated, overpaid, injury prone chuckers that are trafic cones on defense.
Ten games against bottom feeders doesnt change that. On any other team Murray would be a 6th man, MPJ would be a spot up shooter of the bench, AG would be a journeyman roleplayer and WB would be in China.

I'd love to see the catastrophe, Nuggets would be without Jokic.

[Exp0sed]

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

Him being a low IQ player is a fact?

How would you justify that?

ok, him being a low i.q player isn't a fact (the rest of what i mentioned is tho). how would I justify that? I watched like 80% of the Nuggets games since Jokic's emergance as a superstar and that's my opinion of Murray. just watch the games dude and tell me if u think otherwise.

edit:

Murray has shown he can be a big shot taker and maker. he's not afraid at all of the moment and has been a clutch shooter,which makes him a great closer when he's on and the two man game with Jokic the most clutch play in the league, basically

that's a great thing to have but anyone who regulaly watches him play will attest he's lacking in the i.q dpt, with terrible shot selection and bad situational awareness being his two most glaring deficiencies

[nomansland]

he started this current season playing downright atrocious and he also requires load mangement, is injury prone, is a pretty low i.q player with questionable decision making and not a good defender, especially vs. bigger guards who abuse him on the regular and you get all that regular season mediocre package, on a max contract. that's an issue for sure.

those are all facts, I don't see how pointing them out is tantamount to "propping up Jokic", it's pretty simple - if Murray can show up in his superman Kyrie costume to the playoffs (like he has twice out of five playoff runs) - Nuggets are a contender

if he shows up like he did against the Wolves last season, they're likely a 2nd rd exit

Him being a low IQ player is a fact?

How would you justify that?

ok, him being a low i.q player isn't a fact (the rest of what i mentioned is tho). how would I justify that? I watched like 80% of the Nuggets games since Jokic's emergance as a superstar and that's my opinion of Murray. just watch the games dude and tell me if u think otherwise.

edit:

Murray has shown he can be a big shot taker and maker. he's not afraid at all of the moment and has been a clutch shooter,which makes him a great closer when he's on and the two man game with Jokic the most clutch play in the league, basically

that's a great thing to have but anyone who regulaly watches him play will attest he's lacking in the i.q dpt, with terrible shot selection and bad situational awareness being his two most glaring deficiencies

I watch nearly every game and I would agree that most of that's true to some degree or another, but I did call out the low IQ part because I think the opposite is true. He has a tendency to dribble too much and it drives me crazy but he also makes great reads and is a lot more thoughtful than people give him credit for, mostly because he doesn't like talking to the media.

[TheNG]

What's funny is the same people who think "jokic has enough help":
1. Will refuse, at any cost, to take either Murray's or MPJ's contracts to their team.
2. Will not trade the 2nd best player on their team for anoyone in the Nuggets not named Jokic.
3. Will not vote for any Nuggets besides Jokic to be an All-Star.
4. Will not agree to replace the Nuggets bench players with their team bench players.

[scrabbarista]

I assume someone has already posted this but just in case it hasn't, here's their last 10 games:

CHI
NYK
PHI
CHA (CLT?)
NOP
NOP
ORL
PHO
POR
POR

Only the Knicks, who they lost to, are guaranteed a playoff spot right now (ORL and CHI are in the playin too, no one else is). Except for New York, none of these teams have a positive on-off differential either.

Credit to the Nuggets for taking care of business but using this weak stretch as an indicator of anything is stupid.

Tbf, they did win eight in a row and their last six by more than 19 points per game.

That's a bit more than "taking care of business!" Nor is it an "indicator of nothing."

But yes, you can't definitively say they're ready for the good teams until they actually play some good teams.

Still, the signs have been very positive lately.

[Big J]

The only good player on the Nuggets beside Jokic is Braun. The rest of the bunch are overrated, overpaid, injury prone chuckers that are trafic cones on defense.
Ten games against bottom feeders doesnt change that. On any other team Murray would be a 6th man, MPJ would be a spot up shooter of the bench, AG would be a journeyman roleplayer and WB would be in China.

I'd love to see the catastrophe, Nuggets would be without Jokic.

If you consider his teammates traffic cones on defense, then how would you describe Jokic himself on defense? Because to me he looks like the biggest 7’1 traffic cone on the entire team.