Pacers/NOP and Pistons

[Astaluego]

PACERS
In:Herb Jones/Fontecchio
Out:J.Walker/Mathurin/Pacers 28 FRP

They consolidate pieces... they get the DPOY candidate that every contender needs and they save a few million to re-sign Turner.
It may be an overpayment, but at this point... in my opinion, that's what they need.

Hali/Nembhard/Herb/Siakam/Turner
Mcconell/Shepard/Nesmith/Fontecchio/Jackson

NOP
In:Walker/Mathurin/FRP 28
Out:Herb Jones

why? i think the offer is too good to turn down.. they lose the most valuable player currently.. but the sum of the parts and they probably get players with a higher ceiling and a future FRP in the coffers


PISTONS
In:Toppin
Out: Fontecchio

They improve at a position of need, just by taking on a little salary.. Toppin is the ideal archetype that Cade can bring out in..catching lobs and shooting 3s at a position of need for the Pistons

[vege]

I don't hate this for Detroit, but if we are going to commit this much money to Toppin, I would rather try to get Patrick Williams.

Williams is a little bit more expensive, but not a lot, Toppin is the better player right now, Williams is too passive but, they have very similar 3PT% and volume, and while Toppin is a really bad defender, Williams is solid, with the possibility of being great.

We need an upgrade over Fontecchio badly. He have been a complete disaster this season, the only area he have been surprisingly great is rebounding (and effort) but he is completely out of his element, trying to do too much and failing miserably.

[Scoot McGroot]

That is pretty darned expensive for Herb. And especially for only 2 years of Herb being guaranteed. He and Walker hit free agency at the same time, after all. Plus, if Indy is dealing Walker, they would desperately need to keep Obi to chew up minutes at the 4/5.

I love Herb for Indy, but I can't see a Mathurin AND Walker package being offered up for Indy without getting a dynamic two way player. Herb is definitely a dynamic defensive player, but Mathurin, Walker, and a 1st is basically Indy's "superstar" type package.

And, if the goal is to save some money to keep Myles, swapping Obi for Fontecchio doesn't help much there. Indy would essentially need to dump Obi completely. Herb for Walker/Mathurin is essentially cap neutral when you backfill that open roster spot. So, an Obi for Fontecchio swap would only save about $5m, giving Indy only about $27m total for the final 4-5 roster spots, including a 1st round pick salary that would likely take about $3.5m of that? It largely leaves Indy in the exact same position they're already in, financially?

[DetroitSho]

I don't hate this for Detroit, but if we are going to commit this much money to Toppin, I would rather try to get Patrick Williams.

Williams is a little bit more expensive, but not a lot, Toppin is the better player right now, Williams is too passive but, they have very similar 3PT% and volume, and while Toppin is a really bad defender, Williams is solid, with the possibility of being great.

We need an upgrade over Fontecchio badly. He have been a complete disaster this season, the only area he have been surprisingly great is rebounding (and effort) but he is completely out of his element, trying to do too much and failing miserably.

You think upgrading our backup PF's 15 mpg is that important that you'd be ok paying $90 million for the right to have Patrick Williams sleepwalk his way through it? That's wild.

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[Scoot McGroot]

I don't hate this for Detroit, but if we are going to commit this much money to Toppin, I would rather try to get Patrick Williams.

Williams is a little bit more expensive, but not a lot, Toppin is the better player right now, Williams is too passive but, they have very similar 3PT% and volume, and while Toppin is a really bad defender, Williams is solid, with the possibility of being great.

We need an upgrade over Fontecchio badly. He have been a complete disaster this season, the only area he have been surprisingly great is rebounding (and effort) but he is completely out of his element, trying to do too much and failing miserably.

You think upgrading our backup PF's 15 mpg is that important that you'd be ok paying $90 million for the right to have Patrick Williams sleepwalk his way through it? That's wild.

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To be fair, it'd be $64m extra for 4 years, if Pat opts into that last year? Or, $46m extra if he opts out after 3? Pat is already one year through that $90m deal by the time you'd be able to deal for him, and you'd be dealing out Fontecchio's $8ish million salary, so it's not nearly $90m.

[tmorgan]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

[DetroitSho]

I don't hate this for Detroit, but if we are going to commit this much money to Toppin, I would rather try to get Patrick Williams.

Williams is a little bit more expensive, but not a lot, Toppin is the better player right now, Williams is too passive but, they have very similar 3PT% and volume, and while Toppin is a really bad defender, Williams is solid, with the possibility of being great.

We need an upgrade over Fontecchio badly. He have been a complete disaster this season, the only area he have been surprisingly great is rebounding (and effort) but he is completely out of his element, trying to do too much and failing miserably.

You think upgrading our backup PF's 15 mpg is that important that you'd be ok paying $90 million for the right to have Patrick Williams sleepwalk his way through it? That's wild.

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To be fair, it'd be $64m extra for 4 years, if Pat opts into that last year? Or, $46m extra if he opts out after 3? Pat is already one year through that $90m deal by the time you'd be able to deal for him, and you'd be dealing out Fontecchio's $8ish million salary, so it's not nearly $90m.

Yeah I got you. But considering Ausar is still getting less minutes than he'll eventually be getting at full health and Holland's minutes are going to increase next year, Pat Williams is not an upgrade to basically be doubling what you're paying for that role of 15mpg backup.

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[DetroitSho]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

Basically this, at least Font showed waaaaaay more when he got extended minutes after being traded here last year. His biggest problem has been finding his groove in more limited minutes this year. Pat's problem is he seems to not like basketball.

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[vege]

I don't hate this for Detroit, but if we are going to commit this much money to Toppin, I would rather try to get Patrick Williams.

Williams is a little bit more expensive, but not a lot, Toppin is the better player right now, Williams is too passive but, they have very similar 3PT% and volume, and while Toppin is a really bad defender, Williams is solid, with the possibility of being great.

We need an upgrade over Fontecchio badly. He have been a complete disaster this season, the only area he have been surprisingly great is rebounding (and effort) but he is completely out of his element, trying to do too much and failing miserably.

You think upgrading our backup PF's 15 mpg is that important that you'd be ok paying $90 million for the right to have Patrick Williams sleepwalk his way through it? That's wild.

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To be fair, it'd be $64m extra for 4 years, if Pat opts into that last year? Or, $46m extra if he opts out after 3? Pat is already one year through that $90m deal by the time you'd be able to deal for him, and you'd be dealing out Fontecchio's $8ish million salary, so it's not nearly $90m.

True, I missed Patrick William's extra year.

But I consider him to be far superior to Obi, and I would hope in a better enviroment, he would become a starter and take over once Tobias is not good enough to start anymore.

I would explore other options, but I believe PF is an area we need to address in a near future.

[tmorgan]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

Basically this, at least Font showed waaaaaay more when he got extended minutes after being traded here last year. His biggest problem has been finding his groove in more limited minutes this year. Pat's problem is he seems to not like basketball.

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How hard is it to average four rebounds a game playing 27 minutes at power forward? Pat has no activity level. Might as well put a corpse out there most nights.

[vege]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

Look at our own belly and see what the wrong situation can do to a young player (Duren was a bum untill a few weeks ago, he was unplayable bad, he have been solid now).

Patrick Williams have been in a dysfunctional team since he was drafted. Chicago was talented, but the fit between LaVine (selfish player that plays no defense but is a good offensive player) DeMar (terrible defender, great offensive player, not the best passer) Vuc ( arguably worst defensive center in the league, but a good offensive player) and Lonzo, after he went down look at what Patrick Williams had to work with.

Hopefully in a better enviroment, with a better coaching staff, and a more defined role, he will flourish, if not, that sucks, but it's not crippling money, and he can at least defend and hit 3's, when he actually wants to shoot them.

Obi have been with good teams, and great coaches, he is ok, but I don't like him. I would take him over Fontecchio, even with the extra years and money tho (Fontecchio doesn't fit what JB is doing), but I would rather gamble on Patrick Williams figuring out then having Obi Toppin as our PF of the future.

[Billl]

Meh - from detroit, not really interested in paying Topin and certainly not interested in patrick williams. I think both of those are long term bench guys in the nba, not plus starters. Despite a solid season, the pistons aren't in a position to lock up long term money for the back of the rotation until the front is sorted.

[tmorgan]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

Look at our own belly and see what the wrong situation can do to a young player (Duren was a bum untill a few weeks ago, he was unplayable bad, he have been solid now).

Patrick Williams have been in a dysfunctional team since he was drafted. Chicago was talented, but the fit between LaVine (selfish player that plays no defense but is a good offensive player) DeMar (terrible defender, great offensive player, not the best passer) Vuc ( arguably worst defensive center in the league, but a good offensive player) and Lonzo, after he went down look at what Patrick Williams had to work with.

Hopefully in a better enviroment, with a better coaching staff, and a more defined role, he will flourish, if not, that sucks, but it's not crippling money, and he can at least defend and hit 3's, when he actually wants to shoot them.

Obi have been with good teams, and great coaches, he is ok, but I don't like him. I would take him over Fontecchio, even with the extra years and money tho (Fontecchio doesn't fit what JB is doing), but I would rather gamble on Patrick Williams figuring out then having Obi Toppin as our PF of the future.

I know you aren’t gonna want to hear this, vege… but you know who you sound like right now? Troy Weaver, the guy you hated since the very beginning. Taking guys that just don’t produce but supposedly should and trying to “fix” them. This one’s even worse, though, because we didn’t play 18 million a year for Bagley, Wiseman, Knox, or any of the others. Ok, yeah, PW is better than those bums, but on a per dollar basis, he really isn’t.

[ReggiesKnicks]

I don't think Herb is worth this much. If he is, Indiana isn't paying it. A 3+D wing who is a shaky shooter and proves nothing else offensively, not even a little playmaking like KCP, just isn't worth this for Indiana.

Indiana already has 2 Max guys in Siakam and Haliburton, which means we will be fighting the Tax for the duration of their contracts. Why then, would we trade a rookie scales contract with 2 more years who is starting to resemble an NBA rotation player in Jarace Walker AND a pick in 3 years which will desperately help our chances at staying cheap, for a 3+D wing who doesn't put us over the top?

Trading 1sts should be for cornerstone players or players who put you into contention. This move doesn't do that for us.

[ReggiesKnicks]

I don't know how to edit, but OP you don't even list Obi Toppin on your out. You're making this trades like you are cooking at Waffle House brother.

[DetroitSho]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

Basically this, at least Font showed waaaaaay more when he got extended minutes after being traded here last year. His biggest problem has been finding his groove in more limited minutes this year. Pat's problem is he seems to not like basketball.

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How hard is it to average four rebounds a game playing 27 minutes at power forward? Pat has no activity level. Might as well put a corpse out there most nights.

Until someone puts a mirror under his nose, I'm not sure he's not corpse.

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[DetroitSho]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

Look at our own belly and see what the wrong situation can do to a young player (Duren was a bum untill a few weeks ago, he was unplayable bad, he have been solid now).

Patrick Williams have been in a dysfunctional team since he was drafted. Chicago was talented, but the fit between LaVine (selfish player that plays no defense but is a good offensive player) DeMar (terrible defender, great offensive player, not the best passer) Vuc ( arguably worst defensive center in the league, but a good offensive player) and Lonzo, after he went down look at what Patrick Williams had to work with.

Hopefully in a better enviroment, with a better coaching staff, and a more defined role, he will flourish, if not, that sucks, but it's not crippling money, and he can at least defend and hit 3's, when he actually wants to shoot them.

Obi have been with good teams, and great coaches, he is ok, but I don't like him. I would take him over Fontecchio, even with the extra years and money tho (Fontecchio doesn't fit what JB is doing), but I would rather gamble on Patrick Williams figuring out then having Obi Toppin as our PF of the future.

I know you aren’t gonna want to hear this, vege… but you know who you sound like right now? Troy Weaver, the guy you hated since the very beginning. Taking guys that just don’t produce but supposedly should and trying to “fix” them. This one’s even worse, though, because we didn’t play 18 million a year for Bagley, Wiseman, Knox, or any of the others. Ok, yeah, PW is better than those bums, but on a per dollar basis, he really isn’t.

Yeah, Vege's gonna cry in the car after this one. Lol

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[vege]

Pat Williams is a bum. You can look the part without actually being able to play it. Waaaay too passive, way too limited.

Would I take him for Fontecchio if they had the same contract? Of course. But PW is crazy overpaid now — 18 million a year for a guy that averages 10/4/2 in 27 minutes a game? A guy that looks almost the exact same as he did four years ago? Yuck, man.

Look at our own belly and see what the wrong situation can do to a young player (Duren was a bum untill a few weeks ago, he was unplayable bad, he have been solid now).

Patrick Williams have been in a dysfunctional team since he was drafted. Chicago was talented, but the fit between LaVine (selfish player that plays no defense but is a good offensive player) DeMar (terrible defender, great offensive player, not the best passer) Vuc ( arguably worst defensive center in the league, but a good offensive player) and Lonzo, after he went down look at what Patrick Williams had to work with.

Hopefully in a better enviroment, with a better coaching staff, and a more defined role, he will flourish, if not, that sucks, but it's not crippling money, and he can at least defend and hit 3's, when he actually wants to shoot them.

Obi have been with good teams, and great coaches, he is ok, but I don't like him. I would take him over Fontecchio, even with the extra years and money tho (Fontecchio doesn't fit what JB is doing), but I would rather gamble on Patrick Williams figuring out then having Obi Toppin as our PF of the future.

I know you aren’t gonna want to hear this, vege… but you know who you sound like right now? Troy Weaver, the guy you hated since the very beginning. Taking guys that just don’t produce but supposedly should and trying to “fix” them. This one’s even worse, though, because we didn’t play 18 million a year for Bagley, Wiseman, Knox, or any of the others. Ok, yeah, PW is better than those bums, but on a per dollar basis, he really isn’t.

The difference is, Patrick Williams is a good fit right now, the way he is currently playing (he is better than Fontecchio) and if he develops he is a fit for the future.

His skillset fits what we need. It's a risky move, and there may be better options out there, but if the choice is between Obi Toppin and Patrick Williams, I gamble on Patrick Williams, I like his defense more than Obi's athleticism, availability, 3pt% and minutes played are basically the same.

My problem with Weaver was, he did dumb moves for no reason, he had no idea what he was doing, he dumped Bruce Brown for no reason, paid to swap Kennard for Saddiq Bey. And the worst part is, he had no idea how to assemble a NBA roster.

Trajan Langdon went to the deadline with 1 big hole, he only had one guy on the team that could actually dribble the ball (well, seems like Ausar is pretty good at it as well lmao)

What Trajan did? He did a bunch of trades and the result was, he got a couple of meaningless 2nds and a guy that's actually pretty good at dribbling the ball and his playing style fits what we are trying to do. Dennis Schroder is very good in the pick and roll.

What Troy Weaver would've made? He would have paid to unload Fontecchio, after extend him, so he could help another team to drop out of the 2nd appron, so he could get an overpaid center, so he could waive and stretch Stewart.

See the difference and why I hated Weaver? We filled a huge need and got assets in the process, Weaver would give up assets and not solve our issues, he would solve someone else's issue.

So no I am not sounding like Weaver. Even tho Weaver wanted to draft Patrick Williams badly.

[Kalamazoo317]

I think some of y'all are giving up on Tech a bit too early and pronouncing Tobias dead way too early. Can't make any moves until this offseason anyway, though, so we have time to see how things go. I would not currently be in a rush to devote a lot of resources to a middling PF like Obi or Pat Williams, though. If you want to upgrade Tobias, you should be really sure it's an upgrade, imo.

[DetroitSho]

Look at our own belly and see what the wrong situation can do to a young player (Duren was a bum untill a few weeks ago, he was unplayable bad, he have been solid now).

Patrick Williams have been in a dysfunctional team since he was drafted. Chicago was talented, but the fit between LaVine (selfish player that plays no defense but is a good offensive player) DeMar (terrible defender, great offensive player, not the best passer) Vuc ( arguably worst defensive center in the league, but a good offensive player) and Lonzo, after he went down look at what Patrick Williams had to work with.

Hopefully in a better enviroment, with a better coaching staff, and a more defined role, he will flourish, if not, that sucks, but it's not crippling money, and he can at least defend and hit 3's, when he actually wants to shoot them.

Obi have been with good teams, and great coaches, he is ok, but I don't like him. I would take him over Fontecchio, even with the extra years and money tho (Fontecchio doesn't fit what JB is doing), but I would rather gamble on Patrick Williams figuring out then having Obi Toppin as our PF of the future.

I know you aren’t gonna want to hear this, vege… but you know who you sound like right now? Troy Weaver, the guy you hated since the very beginning. Taking guys that just don’t produce but supposedly should and trying to “fix” them. This one’s even worse, though, because we didn’t play 18 million a year for Bagley, Wiseman, Knox, or any of the others. Ok, yeah, PW is better than those bums, but on a per dollar basis, he really isn’t.

The difference is, Patrick Williams is a good fit right now, the way he is currently playing (he is better than Fontecchio) and if he develops he is a fit for the future.

His skillset fits what we need. It's a risky move, and there may be better options out there, but if the choice is between Obi Toppin and Patrick Williams, I gamble on Patrick Williams, I like his defense more than Obi's athleticism, availability, 3pt% and minutes played are basically the same.

My problem with Weaver was, he did dumb moves for no reason, he had no idea what he was doing, he dumped Bruce Brown for no reason, paid to swap Kennard for Saddiq Bey. And the worst part is, he had no idea how to assemble a NBA roster.

Trajan Langdon went to the deadline with 1 big hole, he only had one guy on the team that could actually dribble the ball (well, seems like Ausar is pretty good at it as well lmao)

What Trajan did? He did a bunch of trades and the result was, he got a couple of meaningless 2nds and a guy that's actually pretty good at dribbling the ball and his playing style fits what we are trying to do. Dennis Schroder is very good in the pick and roll.

What Troy Weaver would've made? He would have paid to unload Fontecchio, after extend him, so he could help another team to drop out of the 2nd appron, so he could get an overpaid center, so he could waive and stretch Stewart.

See the difference and why I hated Weaver? We filled a huge need and got assets in the process, Weaver would give up assets and not solve our issues, he would solve someone else's issue.

So no I am not sounding like Weaver. Even tho Weaver wanted to draft Patrick Williams badly.

The choice ain't between Patrick Williams or Obi Toppin. The choice is between those two guys, AT THEIR SALARIES, ANNNNNNNND Fonteccio at his salary for 15-18 backup mpg. NONE of these guys are high-level starters.

Frankly, Williams is not better than Fonteccio. The IDEA of Patrick Williams MAY be better, and even that's debatable. I really don't understand the years of caping for this guy from Pistons fans. This guy is the new Mo Bamba.

Imagine slandering Weaver while fighting the good fight to pay this guy $18 million per to be a spot minutes guy. Sheesh.

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