The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[DimesandKnicks]

This all reminds me of Taylor's recent video talking about are their too many 3's or has the NBA just gotten too complex for the average fan to understand what they're seeing. And of course ESPN, TNT, and all the clowns perpetuate this by showing highlights that mislead the fans as to what's happening. It's not the fans fault, they are literally being spoon fed misleading highlights.

Do you think Jokic will have similiar RAPM as Tyson Chandler, a former DPOY at the conclusion of his career? When his rebounds go down and he becomes and even worse rim defender. Yall put value into an advance metric that you can’t even find across any NBA owned channels and allow it to convince you that what? Jokic is only a little bit worse of a defender than Tyson Chandler, even the metric is an amalgamation of a players entire career? And again how much more does his metric decrease from -2.1 by the end of his career?

We have eyes. What will your excuse be at the end of his career when this metric no longer has as a comparable defender to Chandler and better than Kidd and JJJ? C’mon man

I don't know what Jokic's post-prime defense has anything to do with his defense so far in his career

Ok puppy

[dhsilv2]

Do you think Jokic will have similiar RAPM as Tyson Chandler, a former DPOY at the conclusion of his career? When his rebounds go down and he becomes and even worse rim defender. Yall put value into an advance metric that you can’t even find across any NBA owned channels and allow it to convince you that what? Jokic is only a little bit worse of a defender than Tyson Chandler, even the metric is an amalgamation of a players entire career? And again how much more does his metric decrease from -2.1 by the end of his career?

We have eyes. What will your excuse be at the end of his career when this metric no longer has as a comparable defender to Chandler and better than Kidd and JJJ? C’mon man

I'm not sure I follow the question.

Why are we comparing him in the first place? That doesn't make any sense to me.

What this multi year RAPM shows (as used by the other poster) is that Jokic has a positive impact on the defensive end. That's been the point that people keep trying to hammer home. Comparing a full career to a partial doesn't make a lot of sense. The value of the multi year RAPM is that it removes a lot of potential noise that single year RAPM will have. I wouldn't look at anyone else here other than to grasp perhaps what the "scale" is with this version of the metric.

Mike Conley has the same a RAPM as Damian Lilliard, a top 75 player. Draymond Greem is better than Giannis and Dirk and Rasheed Wallace is a top 20 player in the modern game. If these metrics are your king than I can see why your convinced Jokic is a plus defender.

Respectfully, but why in the hell are you trying to rank players here? I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you're looking at.

RAPM just like every other metric has context behind it. But a full career RAPM sure as hell would be pretty good to tell if how Jokic is used by Denver results in more or less points scored by the other team. The data says it's less. Which means he's having a positive contribution to the defense. Stop trying to turn stats into something they aren't.

[DimesandKnicks]

I'm not sure I follow the question.

Why are we comparing him in the first place? That doesn't make any sense to me.

What this multi year RAPM shows (as used by the other poster) is that Jokic has a positive impact on the defensive end. That's been the point that people keep trying to hammer home. Comparing a full career to a partial doesn't make a lot of sense. The value of the multi year RAPM is that it removes a lot of potential noise that single year RAPM will have. I wouldn't look at anyone else here other than to grasp perhaps what the "scale" is with this version of the metric.

Mike Conley has the same a RAPM as Damian Lilliard, a top 75 player. Draymond Greem is better than Giannis and Dirk and Rasheed Wallace is a top 20 player in the modern game. If these metrics are your king than I can see why your convinced Jokic is a plus defender.

Respectfully, but why in the hell are you trying to rank players here? I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you're looking at.

RAPM just like every other metric has context behind it. But a full career RAPM sure as hell would be pretty good to tell if how Jokic is used by Denver results in more or less points scored by the other team. The data says it's less. Which means he's having a positive contribution to the defense. Stop trying to turn stats into something they aren't.

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

[dhsilv2]

Mike Conley has the same a RAPM as Damian Lilliard, a top 75 player. Draymond Greem is better than Giannis and Dirk and Rasheed Wallace is a top 20 player in the modern game. If these metrics are your king than I can see why your convinced Jokic is a plus defender.

Respectfully, but why in the hell are you trying to rank players here? I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you're looking at.

RAPM just like every other metric has context behind it. But a full career RAPM sure as hell would be pretty good to tell if how Jokic is used by Denver results in more or less points scored by the other team. The data says it's less. Which means he's having a positive contribution to the defense. Stop trying to turn stats into something they aren't.

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

I remain convinced you don't watch Jokic's defense and get influenced by highlight packages. I mean in other threads I've posted multiple breakdowns on his defense and why what he does works. But OK...breakdowns, video, and the best data we possibly have doesn't convince you. I get it, you're just biased.

[AleksandarN]

Im confused

Arent Denver fans the ones saying the GM sucks and Jokic has no help?

Which is it?

Murray, MPJ, and Gordon seems like a very good 2-4 (on top of the best player in the world) and then a couple other role guys like Braun and Russ)

For the first part of the year the narrative was that Denver's reserves suck, and that was on Booth for having constructed a wack roster. Jokic was carrying the team on his back every night and vibes were not good.

But lately injuries have forced Malone to play the deep bench more and we're seeing some growth, especially from Pickett and Nnaji. Jordan has looked pretty good for a 50 year-old, so the need for a backup 5 might not be so urgent. Porter and Murray have been playing a lot better. Strawther is streaky but can light it up. Gordon's back, at 80% of his explosiveness but he's shooting over 40% from 3 and close to 80% from the line, and he's throwing a lot of nice passes. Not to mention Braun, who is emerging as one of the best transition guards in the league.

So that's what's behind the post. Things are looking good, vibes are good. When Westbrook and Watson are back we may even say the team is deep. The challenge will be on Malone to be flexible and creative and make the best use of it.

But they have a tough stretch after the all-star break and very few easy games the rest of the season, so I'm not getting too high yet. They have to beat a bunch of mid-tier teams and hold their own against some elite ones.

https://www.espn.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/den/denver-nuggets

Also Pickett and Nnaji are playing with Jokic a lot more so they will look good next to him. Plus I think Zeke is a 4. And Malone was playing him as a stretch 5 which he sucked at.

[DimesandKnicks]

Respectfully, but why in the hell are you trying to rank players here? I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you're looking at.

RAPM just like every other metric has context behind it. But a full career RAPM sure as hell would be pretty good to tell if how Jokic is used by Denver results in more or less points scored by the other team. The data says it's less. Which means he's having a positive contribution to the defense. Stop trying to turn stats into something they aren't.

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

I remain convinced you don't watch Jokic's defense and get influenced by highlight packages. I mean in other threads I've posted multiple breakdowns on his defense and why what he does works. But OK...breakdowns, video, and the best data we possibly have doesn't convince you. I get it, you're just biased.

Welp, then you’re just wrong. My conclusions come from actually watching him play defense.

Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than - and if u can’t than by definition he is a below average defender

Like the only possible reason you can identify as to why I don’t think he’s a good defender is because - I’m bias tf.

If everyone else bias? Is Jokic bias who himself says he’s average? Maybe we actually value centers who try to defend the rim and can defend in space or defend their matchup

[AleksandarN]

I assume someone has already posted this but just in case it hasn't, here's their last 10 games:

CHI
NYK
PHI
CHA (CLT?)
NOP
NOP
ORL
PHO
POR
POR

Only the Knicks, who they lost to, are guaranteed a playoff spot right now (ORL and CHI are in the playin too, no one else is). Except for New York, none of these teams have a positive on-off differential either.

Credit to the Nuggets for taking care of business but using this weak stretch as an indicator of anything is stupid.

Also take in account they have missed 4 of their top 7 players during a lot of that stretch. Just to add more context

[dhsilv2]

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

I remain convinced you don't watch Jokic's defense and get influenced by highlight packages. I mean in other threads I've posted multiple breakdowns on his defense and why what he does works. But OK...breakdowns, video, and the best data we possibly have doesn't convince you. I get it, you're just biased.

Welp, then you’re just wrong. My conclusions come from actually watching him play defense.

Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than - and if u can’t than by definition he is a below average defender

Like the only possible reason you can identify as to why I don’t think he’s a good defender is because - I’m bias tf.

If everyone else bias? Is Jokic bias who himself says he’s average? Maybe we actually value centers who try to defend the rim and can defend in space or defend their matchup

You've argued he's below average. There's more than 30 centers in the league.

And as best I can tell the only real argument you've made is attacking his rim protection. Meanwhile we have full career RAPM and you're arguing against it. Like...how is that even possible?

[DimesandKnicks]

I remain convinced you don't watch Jokic's defense and get influenced by highlight packages. I mean in other threads I've posted multiple breakdowns on his defense and why what he does works. But OK...breakdowns, video, and the best data we possibly have doesn't convince you. I get it, you're just biased.

Welp, then you’re just wrong. My conclusions come from actually watching him play defense.

Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than - and if u can’t than by definition he is a below average defender

Like the only possible reason you can identify as to why I don’t think he’s a good defender is because - I’m bias tf.

If everyone else bias? Is Jokic bias who himself says he’s average? Maybe we actually value centers who try to defend the rim and can defend in space or defend their matchup

You've argued he's below average. There's more than 30 centers in the league.

And as best I can tell the only real argument you've made is attacking his rim protection. Meanwhile we have full career RAPM and you're arguing against it. Like...how is that even possible?

Because RAPM is a **** metric that the NBA doesn’t even use anymore made by some guys…wtf?

Rim protection, defending in space, post defense.

Jokic is a below average starting NBA C. Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than

[AleksandarN]

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

Ah the old "just run the Pickle Role against Jokic" line. Opponents are scoring 0.78 Points on every pick and roll they run against Jokic this year which is pretty low. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?TypeGrouping=defensive&dir=D&sort=POSS

That’s just a blanket stat with zero context. Watch when teams actually target him in the pick & roll. GS did it in 2022, and Edward’s did it in the playoffs last year.

What was Jokic starting lineup on that team? Where are they now? You are easy work. Also funny if you look at the Olympics this last year. Jokic’s team almost beat a team full of HOFers. And the game changed as soon as he had 4 fouls with 5 minutes left and he couldn’t risk another foul. His defense that game was really good considering he has to play almost the whole game. If his defense was that bad the US should have won 30 by exposing his terrible defense.

[dhsilv2]

Welp, then you’re just wrong. My conclusions come from actually watching him play defense.

Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than - and if u can’t than by definition he is a below average defender

Like the only possible reason you can identify as to why I don’t think he’s a good defender is because - I’m bias tf.

If everyone else bias? Is Jokic bias who himself says he’s average? Maybe we actually value centers who try to defend the rim and can defend in space or defend their matchup

You've argued he's below average. There's more than 30 centers in the league.

And as best I can tell the only real argument you've made is attacking his rim protection. Meanwhile we have full career RAPM and you're arguing against it. Like...how is that even possible?

Because RAPM is a **** metric that the NBA doesn’t even use anymore made by some guys…wtf?

Rim protection, defending in space, post defense.

Jokic is a below average starting NBA C. Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than

The NBA absolutely uses RAPM, are you freaking joking? And "some guy"? Really? The biggest reason we don't have consistent RAPM data out there is that the NBA keeps hiring the people doing it.

As for your list, man I"m not sure the league has 30 starting centers in the first place. If you want to list all the "qualifying" centers, I'll give it a go.

[Peregrine01]

They’ve played against weak competition over the last 10 games where Jokic was mostly deliberately trying to set up MPJ and Murray to get them going.

Murray for the season is once again putting up 20 ppg on basically average efficiency. He still doesn’t get to the rim or pass well and has poor shot selection. And he’s almost certainly not worth $50-60ms a year. Nothing about him has changed and his contract still sucks.

[DimesandKnicks]

You've argued he's below average. There's more than 30 centers in the league.

And as best I can tell the only real argument you've made is attacking his rim protection. Meanwhile we have full career RAPM and you're arguing against it. Like...how is that even possible?

Because RAPM is a **** metric that the NBA doesn’t even use anymore made by some guys…wtf?

Rim protection, defending in space, post defense.

Jokic is a below average starting NBA C. Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than

The NBA absolutely uses RAPM, are you freaking joking? And "some guy"? Really? The biggest reason we don't have consistent RAPM data out there is that the NBA keeps hiring the people doing it.

As for your list, man I"m not sure the league has 30 starting centers in the first place. If you want to list all the "qualifying" centers, I'll give it a go.

All ears

[dhsilv2]

Because RAPM is a **** metric that the NBA doesn’t even use anymore made by some guys…wtf?

Rim protection, defending in space, post defense.

Jokic is a below average starting NBA C. Name 15 starting C’s he’s a better defender than

The NBA absolutely uses RAPM, are you freaking joking? And "some guy"? Really? The biggest reason we don't have consistent RAPM data out there is that the NBA keeps hiring the people doing it.

As for your list, man I"m not sure the league has 30 starting centers in the first place. If you want to list all the "qualifying" centers, I'll give it a go.

All ears

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

[Peregrine01]

The discourse on Jokic's defense is pretty stupid. Yeah he's not a great rim protector, we all know that. But if he was, he'd be the literal Greatest Player of All-Time by a mile.

Though he has limitations, the truth about his defense lies somewhere in the middle. He takes plays off on defense during the regular seasons like just about every superstar. Given his load and need to stay on the floor (Denver being a continual trainwreck whenever he's off), it's understandable and even calculated. When he has to though, his defense has looked pretty good - a big reason why Denver's crunch-time and playoff defense has been very good over the last 3 seasons. I thought his defense was also magnificent against Team USA last year.

[Drakeem]

In their last 10 games...

MPJ: 24.4 points / 7.4 rebounds / 43.1 3P%
Murray: 26 points / 6.7 assists / 3.8 rebounds
CB: 19.5 points / 7.2 rebounds / 3.4 assists

Remember all the RealGMers saying Denver has the worst FO and is absolutely failing Jokic? Remember everyone saying Nuggets are cooked in November?

Tbh, for a guy who's the best player in the league, I'd say it's still a pretty shoddy supporting cast.

Like, if I take a look at some of the players these other top 10-20 players OAT had... the majority are going to come out ahead of Jamal Murray as your second option. Kobe and Shaq had each other, Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Curry and Durant shared casts with Thompson and Draymond while also having each other, LeBron had Wade, Kyrie, AD, and now Luka, Bird had Mchale and Parish, Magic had Kareem and Worthy, etc, etc. I'd say his cast is comparable to maybe Hakeem? Dirk maybe? But those were all lower end rosters as far as contenders went.

Even if I look at the last 10 years of the NBA, if we took off the best player on each team, I think that Denver team has the worst support cast, outside of MAYBE Golden State where Wiggins was the #2. Even Kawhi had a team in Toronto that almost made the ECF without him and won over 50 games.

[Peregrine01]

Jokic fanboys trying to pump up his MVP case and glaze him until their throats give out. Many, many, many such cases.

You seriously think that Jokic has the same kind of talent around him that current or past superstars have or have had? As a reminder - he remains the only MVP to have never played with an all-star.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Kat being only slightly bette than Wemby demonstates that stats like these aer trash. KAT is the worst pick and roll defender I've ever seen

I mean...it's a stat like points per game. It just is what it is. We all know there's more context to points per game, such as TS%, turnovers, teams, offensive system, pace. But points per game is what it is. It's a fact. Just like these are...with some minor issues, just what they are.

No. It’s not. Ppg is a stat reflecting how many points that player scored. He’s FG reflects how many shots he made versus took. You combine this with the context with how good or bad his team is to measure how good of an offensive player he actually is. With a defensive stat like this, the context is soo much more important. A pick and roll is a play defensively where the entire defense has to be on a string. So that metric could reflect how good a PNT defender he is, or it can reflect how good his team is at defending the pick and roll.

that stat is telling you that you can build a strong pnr defence with that guy, and that's what really matters when discussing Jokic

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Mike Conley has the same a RAPM as Damian Lilliard, a top 75 player. Draymond Greem is better than Giannis and Dirk and Rasheed Wallace is a top 20 player in the modern game. If these metrics are your king than I can see why your convinced Jokic is a plus defender.

Respectfully, but why in the hell are you trying to rank players here? I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you're looking at.

RAPM just like every other metric has context behind it. But a full career RAPM sure as hell would be pretty good to tell if how Jokic is used by Denver results in more or less points scored by the other team. The data says it's less. Which means he's having a positive contribution to the defense. Stop trying to turn stats into something they aren't.

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

according to me, you're not understanding the metric and you're using it in ways it was never intended to.
you're basically trying the Chewbacca defense to dispute any number showing that Jokic is overall a neutral to positive defender.

[DimesandKnicks]

I mean...it's a stat like points per game. It just is what it is. We all know there's more context to points per game, such as TS%, turnovers, teams, offensive system, pace. But points per game is what it is. It's a fact. Just like these are...with some minor issues, just what they are.

No. It’s not. Ppg is a stat reflecting how many points that player scored. He’s FG reflects how many shots he made versus took. You combine this with the context with how good or bad his team is to measure how good of an offensive player he actually is. With a defensive stat like this, the context is soo much more important. A pick and roll is a play defensively where the entire defense has to be on a string. So that metric could reflect how good a PNT defender he is, or it can reflect how good his team is at defending the pick and roll.

that stat is telling you that you can build a strong pnr defence with that guy, and that's what really matters when discussing Jokic

Sure. It isn’t telling you that he’s a strong defender.