The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[DimesandKnicks]

Respectfully, but why in the hell are you trying to rank players here? I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you're looking at.

RAPM just like every other metric has context behind it. But a full career RAPM sure as hell would be pretty good to tell if how Jokic is used by Denver results in more or less points scored by the other team. The data says it's less. Which means he's having a positive contribution to the defense. Stop trying to turn stats into something they aren't.

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

according to me, you're not understanding the metric and you're using it in ways it was never intended to.
you're basically trying the Chewbacca defense to dispute any number showing that Jokic is overall a neutral to positive defender.

What does Jokic’s -2.1 rapm mean?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

No. It’s not. Ppg is a stat reflecting how many points that player scored. He’s FG reflects how many shots he made versus took. You combine this with the context with how good or bad his team is to measure how good of an offensive player he actually is. With a defensive stat like this, the context is soo much more important. A pick and roll is a play defensively where the entire defense has to be on a string. So that metric could reflect how good a PNT defender he is, or it can reflect how good his team is at defending the pick and roll.

that stat is telling you that you can build a strong pnr defence with that guy, and that's what really matters when discussing Jokic

Sure. It isn’t telling you that he’s a strong defender.

it's telling you that he can't be bad enough.
at worst moderately below average

[shangrila]

I assume someone has already posted this but just in case it hasn't, here's their last 10 games:

CHI
NYK
PHI
CHA (CLT?)
NOP
NOP
ORL
PHO
POR
POR

Only the Knicks, who they lost to, are guaranteed a playoff spot right now (ORL and CHI are in the playin too, no one else is). Except for New York, none of these teams have a positive on-off differential either.

Credit to the Nuggets for taking care of business but using this weak stretch as an indicator of anything is stupid.

Tbf, they did win eight in a row and their last six by more than 19 points per game.

That's a bit more than "taking care of business!" Nor is it an "indicator of nothing."

But yes, you can't definitively say they're ready for the good teams until they actually play some good teams.

Still, the signs have been very positive lately.

Eight in a row against a soft schedule and their last six with 4 games against NOP/POR. It's really not that impressive.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

according to me, you're not understanding the metric and you're using it in ways it was never intended to.
you're basically trying the Chewbacca defense to dispute any number showing that Jokic is overall a neutral to positive defender.

What does Jokic’s -2.1 rapm mean?

send me the link and I can't comment.
excuse me if it was already posted, didn't see it

[dhsilv2]

According to a data set, that looks like it’s all over the place.

Whatever you say bro. I don’t know how anyone with eyes can convince themselves that Jokic is a good defender but here you and your ilk are.

according to me, you're not understanding the metric and you're using it in ways it was never intended to.
you're basically trying the Chewbacca defense to dispute any number showing that Jokic is overall a neutral to positive defender.

What does Jokic’s -2.1 rapm mean?

It's saying within a margin of error that Jokic reduces team's scoring output by about 2.1 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player (not center). That error range is likely something like half a point maybe a full point.

Which would indicate he's an average to slightly above average defender....with maybe some upside to argue he's starting to get into maybe being good.

[dhsilv2]

according to me, you're not understanding the metric and you're using it in ways it was never intended to.
you're basically trying the Chewbacca defense to dispute any number showing that Jokic is overall a neutral to positive defender.

What does Jokic’s -2.1 rapm mean?

send me the link and I can't comment.
excuse me if it was already posted, didn't see it

This was the link that was discussed.

https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

[DimesandKnicks]

The NBA absolutely uses RAPM, are you freaking joking? And "some guy"? Really? The biggest reason we don't have consistent RAPM data out there is that the NBA keeps hiring the people doing it.

As for your list, man I"m not sure the league has 30 starting centers in the first place. If you want to list all the "qualifying" centers, I'll give it a go.

All ears

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

[dhsilv2]

All ears

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

I'll wait for the 30 starters. You have guys on the same team here. You have a guy playing under 8 minutes a game here, who isn't a better defender.

[DimesandKnicks]

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

I'll wait for the 30 starters. You have guys on the same team here. You have a guy playing under 8 minutes a game here, who isn't a better defender.

Do with that list what you will. I have a life to live

[AleksandarN]

I assume someone has already posted this but just in case it hasn't, here's their last 10 games:

CHI
NYK
PHI
CHA (CLT?)
NOP
NOP
ORL
PHO
POR
POR

Only the Knicks, who they lost to, are guaranteed a playoff spot right now (ORL and CHI are in the playin too, no one else is). Except for New York, none of these teams have a positive on-off differential either.

Credit to the Nuggets for taking care of business but using this weak stretch as an indicator of anything is stupid.

Tbf, they did win eight in a row and their last six by more than 19 points per game.

That's a bit more than "taking care of business!" Nor is it an "indicator of nothing."

But yes, you can't definitively say they're ready for the good teams until they actually play some good teams.

Still, the signs have been very positive lately.

Eight in a row against a soft schedule and their last six with 4 games against NOP/POR. It's really not that impressive.

Soft schedule as it is they were also missing 4 of their top 7 guys for a lot of those wins.

[AleksandarN]

All ears

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

Embiid? Just shows you you haven’t watched any games obviously. Embiid’s defense has been worse than Jokic’s this year. Terrible. The guy can’t move or rebound on the best nights. Also some of those guys aren’t even centers. Brook Lopez is slower than Jokic and gets killed in Pick n rolls. Lopez is worse in space.

[DimesandKnicks]

according to me, you're not understanding the metric and you're using it in ways it was never intended to.
you're basically trying the Chewbacca defense to dispute any number showing that Jokic is overall a neutral to positive defender.

What does Jokic’s -2.1 rapm mean?

It's saying within a margin of error that Jokic reduces team's scoring output by about 2.1 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player (not center). That error range is likely something like half a point maybe a full point.

Which would indicate he's an average to slightly above average defender....with maybe some upside to argue he's starting to get into maybe being good.

So according to this metric, Anthondy Davis reduced the opposing teams scoring output by 2.3 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player, and Alex Curoso reduces the opponents sscoring output by -5.3 points per 100 making his defensive impact more than twice of AD and makes Jokic's impact on defense comprable to AD?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

All ears

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

not going through the full list, also because it's tricky to say who's better or worse between two players. They might have different strengths and weaknesses, hence it's highly scheme dependent.
Otoh, the name "Jalen Duren" absolutely makes no sense in this context.

[DimesandKnicks]

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

Embiid? Just shows you you haven’t watched any games obviously. Embiid’s defense has been worse than Jokic’s this year. Terrible. The guy can’t move or rebound on the best nights. Also some of those guys aren’t even centers. Brook Lopez is slower than Jokic and gets killed in Pick n rolls. Lopez is worse in space.

I'm not talking about this year, I'm talking about in general. Embiid has been a better defender over the course of his career than Embiid. Embiid is CLEARLY hurt

[dhsilv2]

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

I'll wait for the 30 starters. You have guys on the same team here. You have a guy playing under 8 minutes a game here, who isn't a better defender.

Do with that list what you will. I have a life to live

You had a guy who'd played 80 minutes this season on the list. That's before we get into Jokic is better than guys like Thompson, Drummond...heck he's on par with Horford this year...not historically. Your list wasn't serious.

[dhsilv2]

What does Jokic’s -2.1 rapm mean?

It's saying within a margin of error that Jokic reduces team's scoring output by about 2.1 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player (not center). That error range is likely something like half a point maybe a full point.

Which would indicate he's an average to slightly above average defender....with maybe some upside to argue he's starting to get into maybe being good.

So according to this metric, Anthondy Davis reduced the opposing teams scoring output by 2.3 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player, and Alex Curoso reduces the opponents sscoring output by -5.3 points per 100 making his defensive impact more than twice of AD and makes Jokic's impact on defense comprable to AD?

Again, STOP comparing players!

There are roles, coaching decisions and countless other factors that go into these things. The data is very good at giving us high level ideas of where players are. It isn't a ranking system. Just like a guy scoring 30 vs a guy scoring 25, the guy scoring 30 might not be a better scorer.

[DimesandKnicks]

I'll wait for the 30 starters. You have guys on the same team here. You have a guy playing under 8 minutes a game here, who isn't a better defender.

Do with that list what you will. I have a life to live

You had a guy who'd played 80 minutes this season on the list. That's before we get into Jokic is better than guys like Thompson, Drummond...heck he's on par with Horford this year...not historically. Your list wasn't serious.

I named 27 different people. I also named guys who didn’t play all season because when they do actually play, they are better defenders than the matador

[DimesandKnicks]

It's saying within a margin of error that Jokic reduces team's scoring output by about 2.1 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player (not center). That error range is likely something like half a point maybe a full point.

Which would indicate he's an average to slightly above average defender....with maybe some upside to argue he's starting to get into maybe being good.

So according to this metric, Anthondy Davis reduced the opposing teams scoring output by 2.3 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player, and Alex Curoso reduces the opponents sscoring output by -5.3 points per 100 making his defensive impact more than twice of AD and makes Jokic's impact on defense comprable to AD?

Again, STOP comparing players!

There are roles, coaching decisions and countless other factors that go into these things. The data is very good at giving us high level ideas of where players are. It isn't a ranking system. Just like a guy scoring 30 vs a guy scoring 25, the guy scoring 30 might not be a better scorer.

You mean to tell me that a defensive metric like this doesn’t add the coaching decisions and countless other factors? You don’t say.

But it was a genuine question, and if the answer is no than Idky you all keep hoisting this metric as if it’s some holy grail illustrating that Jokic is a plus defender

[mkot]

I assume someone has already posted this but just in case it hasn't, here's their last 10 games:

CHI
NYK
PHI
CHA (CLT?)
NOP
NOP
ORL
PHO
POR
POR

Only the Knicks, who they lost to, are guaranteed a playoff spot right now (ORL and CHI are in the playin too, no one else is). Except for New York, none of these teams have a positive on-off differential either.

Credit to the Nuggets for taking care of business but using this weak stretch as an indicator of anything is stupid.

Tbf, they did win eight in a row and their last six by more than 19 points per game.

That's a bit more than "taking care of business!" Nor is it an "indicator of nothing."

But yes, you can't definitively say they're ready for the good teams until they actually play some good teams.

Still, the signs have been very positive lately.

Eight in a row against a soft schedule and their last six with 4 games against NOP/POR. It's really not that impressive.

It's actually pretty impressive consider that not only they are winning by double digits, they are also without the service of Westbrook and Peyton Watson, AG missing half of the games and MPJ missing the last 3. And then last game they had to start Strawther, their 8th guy in the rotation, and Zeke Nnaji who's been buried on the bench getting DNP most nights. Jokic, Murray and Braun had to carry the scoring load because their bench only put up 3 points.

I'd say the two Portland game were good win, b2b is always hard. Portland were the #1 defense in the last couple weeks coming into Denver and they beat them by double digit.

[dhsilv2]

Do with that list what you will. I have a life to live

You had a guy who'd played 80 minutes this season on the list. That's before we get into Jokic is better than guys like Thompson, Drummond...heck he's on par with Horford this year...not historically. Your list wasn't serious.

I named 27 different people. I also named guys who didn’t play all season because when they do actually play, they are better defenders than the matador

This is like debating someone that players are better today and they list peak play from guys over a 15 year period.