The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[dhsilv2]

So according to this metric, Anthondy Davis reduced the opposing teams scoring output by 2.3 points per 100 compared to the average NBA player, and Alex Curoso reduces the opponents sscoring output by -5.3 points per 100 making his defensive impact more than twice of AD and makes Jokic's impact on defense comprable to AD?

Again, STOP comparing players!

There are roles, coaching decisions and countless other factors that go into these things. The data is very good at giving us high level ideas of where players are. It isn't a ranking system. Just like a guy scoring 30 vs a guy scoring 25, the guy scoring 30 might not be a better scorer.

You mean to tell me that a defensive metric like this doesn’t add the coaching decisions and countless other factors? You don’t say.

But it was a genuine question, and if the answer is no than Idky you all keep hoisting this metric as if it’s some holy grail illustrating that Jokic is a plus defender

The metric is saying Caruso is better than AD career vs career. It's saying career vs career it isn't sure about AD vs Jokic. The first part isn't that crazy given their roles. The second one sounds a bit weird...but it's including skinny AD coming in as a starter and getting pushed around and then all the games and seasons AD played hurt. So I've got no real way to quantify that. Either way it's saying they're both plus defenders which again passes the eye test. Well everyone but you and a few others so seem to clearly get biased by big plays that get replayed and ignore all the deflections, kicked balls, smart rotations, and so on that Jokic makes all game long.

[DimesandKnicks]

Give me who you consider the 30 starting centers. I'm not going to argue over who is and isn't a starter or is or isn't a center.

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

not going through the full list, also because it's tricky to say who's better or worse between two players. They might have different strengths and weaknesses, hence it's highly scheme dependent.
Otoh, the name "Jalen Duren" absolutely makes no sense in this context.

I didn't ask you to

[DimesandKnicks]

Again, STOP comparing players!

There are roles, coaching decisions and countless other factors that go into these things. The data is very good at giving us high level ideas of where players are. It isn't a ranking system. Just like a guy scoring 30 vs a guy scoring 25, the guy scoring 30 might not be a better scorer.

You mean to tell me that a defensive metric like this doesn’t add the coaching decisions and countless other factors? You don’t say.

But it was a genuine question, and if the answer is no than Idky you all keep hoisting this metric as if it’s some holy grail illustrating that Jokic is a plus defender

The metric is saying Caruso is better than AD career vs career. It's saying career vs career it isn't sure about AD vs Jokic. The first part isn't that crazy given their roles. The second one sounds a bit weird...but it's including skinny AD coming in as a starter and getting pushed around and then all the games and seasons AD played hurt. So I've got no real way to quantify that. Either way it's saying they're both plus defenders which again passes the eye test. Well everyone but you and a few others so seem to clearly get biased by big plays that get replayed and ignore all the deflections, kicked balls, smart rotations, and so on that Jokic makes all game long.

If that's your holy grail go for it. Just understand I don't value that metric in the slightest bit at all if its saying AD is comprable to Jokic or that Caruso career vs career is better than AD. What do you think Caruso's number would be if he didn't have AD behind him defensively? It's a **** metric that deviates to much from the actual game. What does the Total mean in that link? Because again Draymond green appears to be much better than alot of players I don't think he's better than

If you think everyone considers AD and Jokic comparable defenders than you are in a very non-basketball bubble. I'll wait to hear from anyone on this board who agrees with you.

I don't get biased by big plays. AD can defend on the permiter is an elite shotblocker and can defend the post...and do all of this while actually defending the other players best big man. MEanwhile Jokic hides on the other teams worst offesnive player and has absolutely no interest in defending the rim. Yall just give this man a pat on the back for "having smart rotations" (which is a product of having a good scheme), a center who has bad rotations is a terrible center.

[DimesandKnicks]

You had a guy who'd played 80 minutes this season on the list. That's before we get into Jokic is better than guys like Thompson, Drummond...heck he's on par with Horford this year...not historically. Your list wasn't serious.

I named 27 different people. I also named guys who didn’t play all season because when they do actually play, they are better defenders than the matador

This is like debating someone that players are better today and they list peak play from guys over a 15 year period.

This is like debating with people who don’t watch basketball and simply ignore the flaws in their favorite player because they’re european

[dhsilv2]

You mean to tell me that a defensive metric like this doesn’t add the coaching decisions and countless other factors? You don’t say.

But it was a genuine question, and if the answer is no than Idky you all keep hoisting this metric as if it’s some holy grail illustrating that Jokic is a plus defender

The metric is saying Caruso is better than AD career vs career. It's saying career vs career it isn't sure about AD vs Jokic. The first part isn't that crazy given their roles. The second one sounds a bit weird...but it's including skinny AD coming in as a starter and getting pushed around and then all the games and seasons AD played hurt. So I've got no real way to quantify that. Either way it's saying they're both plus defenders which again passes the eye test. Well everyone but you and a few others so seem to clearly get biased by big plays that get replayed and ignore all the deflections, kicked balls, smart rotations, and so on that Jokic makes all game long.

If that's your holy grail go for it. Just understand I don't value that metric in the slightest bit at all if its saying AD is comprable to Jokic or that Caruso career vs career is better than AD. What do you think Caruso's number would be if he didn't have AD behind him defensively? It's a **** metric that deviates to much from the actual game. What does the Total mean in that link? Because again Draymond green appears to be much better than alot of players I don't think he's better than

If you think everyone considers AD and Jokic comparable defenders than you are in a very non-basketball bubble. I'll wait to hear from anyone on this board who agrees with you.

I don't get biased by big plays. AD can defend on the permiter is an elite shotblocker and can defend the post...and do all of this while actually defending the other players best big man. MEanwhile Jokic hides on the other teams worst offesnive player and has absolutely no interest in defending the rim. Yall just give this man a pat on the back for "having smart rotations" (which is a product of having a good scheme), a center who has bad rotations is a terrible center.

I never said RAPM was the holy grail. But a full career RAPM is going to have very little error and to argue it's wrong is pretty much laughable. This is a metric that before vega's had it, was consistently beating vegas. It works. It's proven. I'm not sure what else there is to even discuss there. Now you're still not understanding it and that's fine.

AD took a damn year off putting in effort to force his way out of NO. He wasn't a good defender coming in. And he's been hurt constantly. The metric isn't saying peak form and healthy AD isn't better than Jokic. But all that data is included. 3 year RAPM has AD near DPOY level with jokic far below him for example. Which makes sense...that sample doesn't include young AD or him forcing his way out of NO.

Not sure the issue on Caruso, again look at what he's done to OKC this year. He's a huge reason they went from a really good defense to maybe the best ever.

But again this isn't a tool to rank players. You should be look at scale yes. And then looking at the player for who they are. RAPM doesn't know you're a 3 and D guy vs a primary scorer who's a shot blocker. That's the job of the users of the stat.

Meanwhile....you again show you don't understand defense. All this hiding on a player crap. Jokic's role on defense is that of a safety. They aren't hiding him on the worst player. They are using the worst player to allow Jokic the ability to do what he does at an ELITE level and that's read the offense and make rotations.

[dhsilv2]

I named 27 different people. I also named guys who didn’t play all season because when they do actually play, they are better defenders than the matador

This is like debating someone that players are better today and they list peak play from guys over a 15 year period.

This is like debating with people who don’t watch basketball and simply ignore the flaws in their favorite player because they’re european

Who in the hell cares where someone is from? And why say this to me? I'm from Kentucky dude.

[MarcusBrody]

This is like debating someone that players are better today and they list peak play from guys over a 15 year period.

This is like debating with people who don’t watch basketball and simply ignore the flaws in their favorite player because they’re european

Who in the hell cares where someone is from? And why say this to me? I'm from Kentucky dude.

Never trust the Finns, that's what I always say.

[DimesandKnicks]

This is like debating someone that players are better today and they list peak play from guys over a 15 year period.

This is like debating with people who don’t watch basketball and simply ignore the flaws in their favorite player because they’re european

Who in the hell cares where someone is from? And why say this to me? I'm from Kentucky dude.

I figured you absolutely have to be from Serbia to be so subjective

[DimesandKnicks]

The metric is saying Caruso is better than AD career vs career. It's saying career vs career it isn't sure about AD vs Jokic. The first part isn't that crazy given their roles. The second one sounds a bit weird...but it's including skinny AD coming in as a starter and getting pushed around and then all the games and seasons AD played hurt. So I've got no real way to quantify that. Either way it's saying they're both plus defenders which again passes the eye test. Well everyone but you and a few others so seem to clearly get biased by big plays that get replayed and ignore all the deflections, kicked balls, smart rotations, and so on that Jokic makes all game long.

If that's your holy grail go for it. Just understand I don't value that metric in the slightest bit at all if its saying AD is comprable to Jokic or that Caruso career vs career is better than AD. What do you think Caruso's number would be if he didn't have AD behind him defensively? It's a **** metric that deviates to much from the actual game. What does the Total mean in that link? Because again Draymond green appears to be much better than alot of players I don't think he's better than

If you think everyone considers AD and Jokic comparable defenders than you are in a very non-basketball bubble. I'll wait to hear from anyone on this board who agrees with you.

I don't get biased by big plays. AD can defend on the permiter is an elite shotblocker and can defend the post...and do all of this while actually defending the other players best big man. MEanwhile Jokic hides on the other teams worst offesnive player and has absolutely no interest in defending the rim. Yall just give this man a pat on the back for "having smart rotations" (which is a product of having a good scheme), a center who has bad rotations is a terrible center.

I never said RAPM was the holy grail. But a full career RAPM is going to have very little error and to argue it's wrong is pretty much laughable. This is a metric that before vega's had it, was consistently beating vegas. It works. It's proven. I'm not sure what else there is to even discuss there. Now you're still not understanding it and that's fine.

AD took a damn year off putting in effort to force his way out of NO. He wasn't a good defender coming in. And he's been hurt constantly. The metric isn't saying peak form and healthy AD isn't better than Jokic. But all that data is included. 3 year RAPM has AD near DPOY level with jokic far below him for example. Which makes sense...that sample doesn't include young AD or him forcing his way out of NO.

Not sure the issue on Caruso, again look at what he's done to OKC this year. He's a huge reason they went from a really good defense to maybe the best ever.

But again this isn't a tool to rank players. You should be look at scale yes. And then looking at the player for who they are. RAPM doesn't know you're a 3 and D guy vs a primary scorer who's a shot blocker. That's the job of the users of the stat.

Meanwhile....you again show you don't understand defense. All this hiding on a player crap. Jokic's role on defense is that of a safety. They aren't hiding him on the worst player. They are using the worst player to allow Jokic the ability to do what he does at an ELITE level and that's read the offense and make rotations.

Play safety and make rotations so he can lay out the red carpet for players on their way to an easy layup

Sure bud, I don’t understand defense. You’re the savant

[NoStatsGuy]

lets hope these dudes show up in the playoffs aswell. i dont like okc

[dhsilv2]

This is like debating with people who don’t watch basketball and simply ignore the flaws in their favorite player because they’re european

Who in the hell cares where someone is from? And why say this to me? I'm from Kentucky dude.

I figured you absolutely have to be from Serbia to be so subjective

Never been to europe man. Don't have any desire to ever go.

[dhsilv2]

If that's your holy grail go for it. Just understand I don't value that metric in the slightest bit at all if its saying AD is comprable to Jokic or that Caruso career vs career is better than AD. What do you think Caruso's number would be if he didn't have AD behind him defensively? It's a **** metric that deviates to much from the actual game. What does the Total mean in that link? Because again Draymond green appears to be much better than alot of players I don't think he's better than

If you think everyone considers AD and Jokic comparable defenders than you are in a very non-basketball bubble. I'll wait to hear from anyone on this board who agrees with you.

I don't get biased by big plays. AD can defend on the permiter is an elite shotblocker and can defend the post...and do all of this while actually defending the other players best big man. MEanwhile Jokic hides on the other teams worst offesnive player and has absolutely no interest in defending the rim. Yall just give this man a pat on the back for "having smart rotations" (which is a product of having a good scheme), a center who has bad rotations is a terrible center.

I never said RAPM was the holy grail. But a full career RAPM is going to have very little error and to argue it's wrong is pretty much laughable. This is a metric that before vega's had it, was consistently beating vegas. It works. It's proven. I'm not sure what else there is to even discuss there. Now you're still not understanding it and that's fine.

AD took a damn year off putting in effort to force his way out of NO. He wasn't a good defender coming in. And he's been hurt constantly. The metric isn't saying peak form and healthy AD isn't better than Jokic. But all that data is included. 3 year RAPM has AD near DPOY level with jokic far below him for example. Which makes sense...that sample doesn't include young AD or him forcing his way out of NO.

Not sure the issue on Caruso, again look at what he's done to OKC this year. He's a huge reason they went from a really good defense to maybe the best ever.

But again this isn't a tool to rank players. You should be look at scale yes. And then looking at the player for who they are. RAPM doesn't know you're a 3 and D guy vs a primary scorer who's a shot blocker. That's the job of the users of the stat.

Meanwhile....you again show you don't understand defense. All this hiding on a player crap. Jokic's role on defense is that of a safety. They aren't hiding him on the worst player. They are using the worst player to allow Jokic the ability to do what he does at an ELITE level and that's read the offense and make rotations.

Play safety and make rotations so he can lay out the red carpet for players on their way to an easy layup

Sure bud, I don’t understand defense. You’re the savant

I'm at best a C- guy at following defense. But the idea Jokic's with his deflections and steals...I mean we're talking about the same guy right? Jokic is 3rd in total steals in the NBA this season and tied for 3rd in deflections.

I mean, serious question. Do you think steals and deflections are meaningless? Again he's 3rd in both among ALL players in both. Not big men. But in total.

He has 274 combined steals/deflections so far...we aren't even at the allstar break.

Oh and he's 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds.

How is a guy who's 3rd in steals. 3rd in deflections. And 3rd in defensive rebounds a BELOW average defender?

And I don't have 2025 numbers but Jokic has been averaging like .7 kicked balls in some seasons, so likely has 20-30 of those where he resets the clock to what is it now, 16? I forget. That's defensive value too.

So do you think any of this has value? And if so...how bad is he elsewhere that these things aren't helping make him neutral? Like serious question...lets stop throwing around the simi insults while still not being crossing the line disrespectful. You don't like on off data. We both agree he's a bad rim protector but we also both agree he's at the rim contesting a lot. So...how do you evaluate all these steals, deflections, and rebounds? Do you see any value in a kicked ball on a lost play that prevents a score?

Oh and lets not forget all this in the context that he almost never sends people to the line to get free points.

[C3H6N6O6]

Jokic is the best player in the world but anyone who has seen him play this year should accept that he has been a bad defender all season.

I thought that everyone agreed that defensive stats for individuals don't mean much but I see people using them in this thread. You can't judge individual defense unless you watch the game. There is no other way to do it.

[AleksandarN]

I'll do you one better. The following are NBA C's who are better defenders than Jokic:

Jarret Allen, Tristan Thompson, Luke Kornet, Al Horford, Porzingiz, Hukporti, Mitchel Robinson, Precious Achuiwa, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Isaiah Jackson, Jalen Duran, Jalen Smith, Goga, Wendel Carter Jr, Okungo, Capela, Bam, Embidd, Drummond, Nic Claxton, Poeltl, Hartenstein, Holgrem, JJJ, AD

You replace Jokic with any of these players and they have a better defense. All of these guys are better indiviual and hel defenders than Jokic...I'd even be willing to argue that u trade Kat for Jokic, put Jokic in Thibs brain dead Pick and Roll defense and put Kat in the Nuggets brilliant PNR defensive scheme - they'd have a better defense. He's as good a rebound, better at defending in space and a better post defender

Embiid? Just shows you you haven’t watched any games obviously. Embiid’s defense has been worse than Jokic’s this year. Terrible. The guy can’t move or rebound on the best nights. Also some of those guys aren’t even centers. Brook Lopez is slower than Jokic and gets killed in Pick n rolls. Lopez is worse in space.

I'm not talking about this year, I'm talking about in general. Embiid has been a better defender over the course of his career than Embiid. Embiid is CLEARLY hurt

Yet you still put non centers in your list. Talk about being intellectually dishonest. You said replace any of those players. That implies now. Like I said dishonestly at its finest

[MarcusBrody]

I never said RAPM was the holy grail. But a full career RAPM is going to have very little error and to argue it's wrong is pretty much laughable. This is a metric that before vega's had it, was consistently beating vegas. It works. It's proven. I'm not sure what else there is to even discuss there. Now you're still not understanding it and that's fine.

AD took a damn year off putting in effort to force his way out of NO. He wasn't a good defender coming in. And he's been hurt constantly. The metric isn't saying peak form and healthy AD isn't better than Jokic. But all that data is included. 3 year RAPM has AD near DPOY level with jokic far below him for example. Which makes sense...that sample doesn't include young AD or him forcing his way out of NO.

Not sure the issue on Caruso, again look at what he's done to OKC this year. He's a huge reason they went from a really good defense to maybe the best ever.

But again this isn't a tool to rank players. You should be look at scale yes. And then looking at the player for who they are. RAPM doesn't know you're a 3 and D guy vs a primary scorer who's a shot blocker. That's the job of the users of the stat.

Meanwhile....you again show you don't understand defense. All this hiding on a player crap. Jokic's role on defense is that of a safety. They aren't hiding him on the worst player. They are using the worst player to allow Jokic the ability to do what he does at an ELITE level and that's read the offense and make rotations.

Play safety and make rotations so he can lay out the red carpet for players on their way to an easy layup

Sure bud, I don’t understand defense. You’re the savant

I'm at best a C- guy at following defense. But the idea Jokic's with his deflections and steals...I mean we're talking about the same guy right? Jokic is 3rd in total steals in the NBA this season and tied for 3rd in deflections.

I mean, serious question. Do you think steals and deflections are meaningless? Again he's 3rd in both among ALL players in both. Not big men. But in total.

He has 274 combined steals/deflections so far...we aren't even at the allstar break.

Oh and he's 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds.

How is a guy who's 3rd in steals. 3rd in deflections. And 3rd in defensive rebounds a BELOW average defender?

And I don't have 2025 numbers but Jokic has been averaging like .7 kicked balls in some seasons, so likely has 20-30 of those where he resets the clock to what is it now, 16? I forget. That's defensive value too.

So do you think any of this has value? And if so...how bad is he elsewhere that these things aren't helping make him neutral? Like serious question...lets stop throwing around the simi insults while still not being crossing the line disrespectful. You don't like on off data. We both agree he's a bad rim protector but we also both agree he's at the rim contesting a lot. So...how do you evaluate all these steals, deflections, and rebounds? Do you see any value in a kicked ball on a lost play that prevents a score?

Oh and lets not forget all this in the context that he almost never sends people to the line to get free points.

He's actually a lot lower on kicked balls this year. I might have talked about it up thread, but my take is that the decrease is due to Nuggets perimeter defenders being slower in getting through screens and so him having to stay in front of the ball handler on the drop longer, which means that the ballhandler and roll man can spread out a bit more. A lot of Jokic's kicks in the past was him blocking the pocket pass with his foot. That's been less effective this year. it's one area that the Nuggets have missed KCP and his screen navigation, even if Braun has played better on offense.

[tsherkin]

So, with respect to Jokic's defense...

He IS 6th in the league in deflections per game and 12th in DRB%.

He isn't much of a volume shot contester around the rim, for sure, but he does a whole pile of stuff defensively which people appear not to be discussing here. He isn't a high-end defender, that much is clear, but out and out bad seems a little off-base.

[AleksandarN]

Do with that list what you will. I have a life to live

You had a guy who'd played 80 minutes this season on the list. That's before we get into Jokic is better than guys like Thompson, Drummond...heck he's on par with Horford this year...not historically. Your list wasn't serious.

I named 27 different people. I also named guys who didn’t play all season because when they do actually play, they are better defenders than the matador

Also if Jokic is a matador then why didn’t the USA take advantage of such a terrible “matador” defender when they played Serbia. The team had soon to be 12 hofers on that team. They almost lost it was untill Jokic picked up his 4th foul 5 left in the fourth that tide turned.

[dhsilv2]

Play safety and make rotations so he can lay out the red carpet for players on their way to an easy layup

Sure bud, I don’t understand defense. You’re the savant

I'm at best a C- guy at following defense. But the idea Jokic's with his deflections and steals...I mean we're talking about the same guy right? Jokic is 3rd in total steals in the NBA this season and tied for 3rd in deflections.

I mean, serious question. Do you think steals and deflections are meaningless? Again he's 3rd in both among ALL players in both. Not big men. But in total.

He has 274 combined steals/deflections so far...we aren't even at the allstar break.

Oh and he's 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds.

How is a guy who's 3rd in steals. 3rd in deflections. And 3rd in defensive rebounds a BELOW average defender?

And I don't have 2025 numbers but Jokic has been averaging like .7 kicked balls in some seasons, so likely has 20-30 of those where he resets the clock to what is it now, 16? I forget. That's defensive value too.

So do you think any of this has value? And if so...how bad is he elsewhere that these things aren't helping make him neutral? Like serious question...lets stop throwing around the simi insults while still not being crossing the line disrespectful. You don't like on off data. We both agree he's a bad rim protector but we also both agree he's at the rim contesting a lot. So...how do you evaluate all these steals, deflections, and rebounds? Do you see any value in a kicked ball on a lost play that prevents a score?

Oh and lets not forget all this in the context that he almost never sends people to the line to get free points.

He's actually a lot lower on kicked balls this year. I might have talked about it up thread, but my take is that the decrease is due to Nuggets perimeter defenders being slower in getting through screens and so him having to stay in front of the ball handler on the drop longer, which means that the ballhandler and roll man can spread out a bit more. A lot of Jokic's kicks in the past was him blocking the pocket pass with his foot. That's been less effective this year. it's one area that the Nuggets have missed KCP and his screen navigation, even if Braun has played better on offense.

Awesome info, thanks!

[dhsilv2]

Jokic is the best player in the world but anyone who has seen him play this year should accept that he has been a bad defender all season.

I thought that everyone agreed that defensive stats for individuals don't mean much but I see people using them in this thread. You can't judge individual defense unless you watch the game. There is no other way to do it.

He isn't bad...you're just wrong. RIP

[C3H6N6O6]

Jokic is the best player in the world but anyone who has seen him play this year should accept that he has been a bad defender all season.

I thought that everyone agreed that defensive stats for individuals don't mean much but I see people using them in this thread. You can't judge individual defense unless you watch the game. There is no other way to do it.

He isn't bad...you're just wrong. RIP

Jokic is alive.