2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[iggymcfrack]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

[DrModesty]

SGA is scoring 2.5 more a game in the same minutes this year on slightly better efficiency. And the Thunder are on pace to win like 15 more games than Denver. Seeding doesn’t matter if it’s that massive a gap.

Straw poll shows us where it’s at now. It’s SGA’s to lose.

that "on pace" might be somewhat misleading tho, no?

the Nuggets started the season poorly with Jokic playing out of his mind and no1 else showing up at all, most notably Murray whowas playing like a G League player. after the Nuggets lost to the Wizards (breaking a 16 games losing streak) with Jokic going for a career high they dropped down to 11-10 on the season. since then they are 25-9.

also uncharecteristically, Jokic missed a couple of games including three games on baby watch, if not for that baby watch, they'd probably have a win or two more and he's unikely to have another baby during this season

they're currently "on pace" for 53 wins but it's pretty clear they're better than a 53 wins team and will likely out pace that pace the rest of the way, imo

the Thunder on the other hand seem to be trending the other way, after their big win in Cleveland they were 34-6 but have since gone 10-4, also depending on how many games the Cavs drop along the way at some point OKC's game might become meaningless and they'll bench starters

I think something in the 8-10 gap range is much more likely than a 15+ gap tbh, so what if it's 9? what it's 7?
what's the formula to knowing how big of a gap trumps Jokic's individual advantage? pretty subjective, I guess

I think a lot of it comes down to just how historic OKC's season ends up being.

I think there reaches a point where the team record gets so good that the best player just has to meet the threshold of 'MVP Level' to get the award. In this instance, if OKC are above 65 games, and the teams advanced metrics hold to a similar level as they have been (arguably best team ever), then it will be hard to stray from SGA no matter how good Jokic's season is.

On top of that, people are going to be able to point to the injuries OKC have suffered. This is a 2 pronged bonus for Shai, because not only are the cumulative injuries more significant than Denver's, they also represent managing to have a historically great team while having these injuries. There are no 65+ win teams that had a Chet level injury, let alone additional significant missed games beyond that.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

The reality is that SGA will win because Jokic has already won 3 and SGA has none. If they both had none Jokic would win. He is having one of the 5 best regular seasons of all time.

[Soonercrazy84]

I watched Jokic mauled the other night to the point he had to change a jersey due to all the blood...and he would not get free throws. As good as SGA is, I can never vote for foul merchants, especially when officials favor certain players. It will always be deciding factor when it's a close race.

Too bad you don't vote

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[Soonercrazy84]

I don’t think it matters if Luka played all year - this is coming down to SGA on wins plus stats or Jokic on outrageous stats-

This is and was a two man race- we just accepting it now

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc are not and were not going win more than SGA and have SGA level stats - SGAs stats really solid plus he still winning with the OKC second best player hurt -

And

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc Were not gonna have better pure or advanced stats than Jokic regardless of their record and Denver won’t be out of the playoffs… Denver will be good enough for jokic to win MVP..

So it’s a 2 man race and probably always was-

I agree that SGA would have won and will win if he stays healthy, but I think it could have been a 3-way race for sure. Luka had a crazy good December, and at one point the Mavs was on a high win pace (not 65+ high like OKC, but high, I think 59 or something like that). The Mavs also looked the top candidate for the 2nd spot before all the sickness and injuries that decimated the roster.

Luka -

• Points per game (PPG): 28.1
• Rebounds per game (RPG): 8.3
• Assists per game (APG): 7.8
• Field Goal Percentage (FG%): 46.4%
• Three-Point Percentage (3P%): 35.4%
• Free Throw Percentage (FT%): 76.7%

Sga stats
• Points per game (PPG): 31.3
• Assists per game (APG): 6.1
• Rebounds per game (RPG): 5.6
• Field Goal Percentage (FG%): 52.2%
• Three-Point Percentage (3P%): 35.6%
• Free Throw Percentage (FT%): 89.6%

Jokic-

Points per game (PPG): 31.5
• Rebounds per game (RPG): 13.0
• Assists per game (APG): 9.7
• Field Goal Percentage (FG%): 53.0%
• Three-Point Percentage (3P%): 51.0%
• Free Throw Percentage (FT%): 82.4%

Luka not beating SGA this year on stat plus record or Jokic on pure stats this year - injuries on not

He can get the chip tho as a consolation prize lol

Lmao Lakers the 6 seed at best.

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[Soonercrazy84]

The reality is that SGA will win because Jokic has already won 3 and SGA has none. If they both had none Jokic would win. He is having one of the 5 best regular seasons of all time.

Thunder gonna win 66 games....does that matter?

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[Mrakar]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

Are you using something? Jokic alone has like 3 better seasons then SGA....

[bstein14]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

Are you using something? Jokic alone has like 3 better seasons then SGA....

Lots of players have had similar seasons to SGA. 32/5/6 & 63.9 TS%

Jokic's season is unreal. 30/12/10 & 66.6 TS%

How anyone could look at those stats an say "It's SGA's to loose" is beyond me. Jokic is

Jokic will become just the third player ever to average a triple double and he's have by far the highest scoring efficiency doing so.

Jokic's current 24-25 is the highest PER season of all-time. SGA's is the 20th highest PER season of all-time currently.

Scoring Leaders
1. SGA (32.5)
2. Giannis (31.8)
3. Jokic (29.8)

Assist Leaders
1. Trae Young (11.5)
2. Jokic (10.2)
3. Cade (9.4)

Rebound Leaders
1. Sabonis (14.6)
2. Towns (13.4)
3. Jokic (12.6)

Steals Leaders
1. Daniels (3.0)
2. SGA (1.9)
3. Maxey (1.9)
4. Jokic (1.8)

3pt % Leaders
1. Kennard (47.8%)
2. Prince (46.0%)
3. Sabonis (45.5%)
4. Jokic (45.0%)

[MoneyTalks41890]

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

Are you using something? Jokic alone has like 3 better seasons then SGA....

Lots of players have had similar seasons to SGA. 32/5/6 & 63.9 TS%

Jokic's season is unreal. 30/12/10 & 66.6 TS%

How anyone could look at those stats an say "It's SGA's to loose" is beyond me. Jokic is

Jokic will become just the third player ever to average a triple double and he's have by far the highest scoring efficiency doing so.

Jokic's current 24-25 is the highest PER season of all-time. SGA's is the 20th highest PER season of all-time currently.

Scoring Leaders
1. SGA (32.5)
2. Giannis (31.8)
3. Jokic (29.8)

Assist Leaders
1. Trae Young (11.5)
2. Jokic (10.2)
3. Cade (9.4)

Rebound Leaders
1. Sabonis (14.6)
2. Towns (13.4)
3. Jokic (12.6)

Steals Leaders
1. Daniels (3.0)
2. SGA (1.9)
3. Maxey (1.9)
4. Jokic (1.8)

3pt % Leaders
1. Kennard (47.8%)
2. Prince (46.0%)
3. Sabonis (45.5%)
4. Jokic (45.0%)

The award is not and has never been offensive player of the year.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

The reality is that SGA will win because Jokic has already won 3 and SGA has none. If they both had none Jokic would win. He is having one of the 5 best regular seasons of all time.

Thunder gonna win 66 games....does that matter?

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It does matter. The problem is it’s the only argument in favor of SGA, which for me isn’t enough to justify SGA winning it. We all know this is true even the biggest SGA homers. The conversation always swings around to “Well look at OKC’s record!” Because there’s no rational argument for SGA as an individual player being better than Jokic as an individual player, so inevitably the argument must rely entirely upon team success.

[brackdan70]

At the break.
LEBRON WAR
Jokic
SGA
Tatum

EPM Wins
SGA
Jokic
Tatum

It’s really close between SGA and Jokic imo. Tatum is a distant third and would need go insane for the last 27 games to get back in the mix.
Giannis won’t qualify, Wemby is on a lotto team, Brunson and Mitchell are too far back to make a run imo.
At this point I’m changing my vote from SGA to Jokic. Denver is back to contender status and his season is truly historic so far.
It’s tight though. Either one of those two could seize it.

[Jeremy Lin 7]

It's Joker's MVP. SGA doesn't impact his team is not on the same level Jokic has.

Eye test and numbers back that up. Joker is nearly averaging a 30 point triple double. Hard carrying his teams on most nights whereas SGA can have a bad game and still win.

[AleksandarN]

Wild that people are now talking down the competition Jockic has faced and implying he is just a box score filler.

Watching SGA get his 50 ball with 20 free throws is exhilarating.

I don’t think we need to bring down SGA to illustrate Jokic’s greatness or make a case for Jokic being mvp.

[RRR3]

People are bringing up Jokic's box score stuff because that's the only advantage he has over SGA. Impact stats show them as pretty equal, which Jokic fans have been ignoring the entire thread in favor of stats that think Hassan Whiteside was an amazing player. It's fine to have Jokic as MVP. It's delusional to say it's not a very close race in terms of who's been better. It's honesty a tossup in terms of impact.

[Exp0sed]

SGA is scoring 2.5 more a game in the same minutes this year on slightly better efficiency. And the Thunder are on pace to win like 15 more games than Denver. Seeding doesn’t matter if it’s that massive a gap.

Straw poll shows us where it’s at now. It’s SGA’s to lose.

I think a lot of it comes down to just how historic OKC's season ends up being.

I think there reaches a point where the team record gets so good that the best player just has to meet the threshold of 'MVP Level' to get the award. In this instance, if OKC are above 65 games, and the teams advanced metrics hold to a similar level as they have been (arguably best team ever), then it will be hard to stray from SGA no matter how good Jokic's season is.

On top of that, people are going to be able to point to the injuries OKC have suffered. This is a 2 pronged bonus for Shai, because not only are the cumulative injuries more significant than Denver's, they also represent managing to have a historically great team while having these injuries. There are no 65+ win teams that had a Chet level injury, let alone additional significant missed games beyond that.

I totally agree with everything you said. personally that might end up being the deciding factor for me, I still have SGA winning atm but if OKC go down from their historic level to just "awesome" level I might lean towards Jokic again (assuming all else will stay the same)

because I do think Jokic has been simply put - better individually than SGA and he's literally the most valuable player in the league to his team. however, with SGA leading a truly historic OKC team (thus far) and at a relatively young avg. age etc. and that's how MVPs have always been awarded, with that team component baked in

best player on a damn near unbeatable team who sits atop a brutal conference, leading the league in scoring in just 34 mpg,killing it in the impact metrics so there's no confusion as to whose driving their success - that's the MVP, Jokic's greatness aside and even taking into account the caliber of historic season he is having. but if they're just a 62 wins team and the Nuggets have like 56 or something, than Jokic would be my pick (again, we'll have to see how they both finish out the season but we know they're both going to be consistently great, very unlikely we see some major shift in either individually)

[iggymcfrack]

The reality is that SGA will win because Jokic has already won 3 and SGA has none. If they both had none Jokic would win. He is having one of the 5 best regular seasons of all time.

Thunder gonna win 66 games....does that matter?

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It does matter. The problem is it’s the only argument in favor of SGA, which for me isn’t enough to justify SGA winning it. We all know this is true even the biggest SGA homers. The conversation always swings around to “Well look at OKC’s record!” Because there’s no rational argument for SGA as an individual player being better than Jokic as an individual player, so inevitably the argument must rely entirely upon team success.

He has better box score stats than any guard in history except for Steph (once, barely) and Jordan (3 times). His plus-minus beats anyone at this point of the season except Steph and Dray in 2016, but while Steph, Dray, and Klay all had similar numbers due to their correlation, SGA’s plus/minus is more than double anyone else’s on the team. He leads the league in EPM on a rate basis and has missed 5 less games than Jokic.

I literally don’t even pay attention to team record when I’m filling out my MVP ballot. It has so little effect on me that I couldn’t even figure out why Wemby wasn’t top 5 in the MVP balloting at first. Jokic is my favorite player, I have him #8 all-time. I would say he’s currently in the midst of the best offensive season in the history of the sport. And yet, I would STILL say SGA’s currently the deserving MVP (by a very small margin) because he’s having the best all-around regular season of any player since LeBron in ‘09.

[iggymcfrack]

Wild that people are now talking down the competition Jockic has faced and implying he is just a box score filler.

Watching SGA get his 50 ball with 20 free throws is exhilarating.

I don’t think we need to bring down SGA to illustrate Jokic’s greatness or make a case for Jokic being mvp.

Thank you!!! We're currently in the midst of the greatest MVP race in the history of American big 4 sports with 2 really likable guys and people wanna make it toxic like people are race baiting Joker against Embiid or something. It's ridiculous. Let's just enjoy this!

I have SGA in the lead right now, but it's a tiny margin and it could easily turn around. Instead of going full hater whenever your selection's not in front, let's just appreciate that 2 guys have never had regular seasons like this in the same year in any sport except maybe Messi and Ronaldo at some point.

[iggymcfrack]

SGA disrespect in the larger basketball consciousness is unreal. He’s losing a poll to **** Luka on Reddit right now.

[Exp0sed]

Wild that people are now talking down the competition Jockic has faced and implying he is just a box score filler.

Watching SGA get his 50 ball with 20 free throws is exhilarating.

I don’t think we need to bring down SGA to illustrate Jokic’s greatness or make a case for Jokic being mvp.

Thank you!!! We're currently in the midst of the greatest MVP race in the history of American big 4 sports with 2 really likable guys and people wanna make it toxic like people are race baiting Joker against Embiid or something. It's ridiculous. Let's just enjoy this!

I have SGA in the lead right now, but it's a tiny margin and it could easily turn around. Instead of going full hater whenever your selection's not in front, let's just appreciate that 2 guys have never had regular seasons like this in the same year in any sport except maybe Messi and Ronaldo at some point.

I don't sense actual toxicity this time around in the basketball sphere. I think it's because both guys are extremely likeable. yeah, SGA is using the rules to his favor (because he's quick and skilled enough to benefit from them) but it's very neglible as he's a team player and his game is very aesthetically pleasing. he's quick, strong, smart, has killer handles, tough, automatic from his favorites spots, clutch and he even has a personality to boot, what's not to like?

I think it also helps both guys are in small markets. no1 really disliked Denver or OKC specifically, not like when u have ur usual Lakers or Celtics or whomever and always have built-in haters and trolls from the opposing camp

[Castle Black]

Well well well... Look who's bonding at the All-Star Weekend...

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