The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[tsherkin]

Disagree if you want on AI, but are you of the opinion that only Jokic elevates roles players, and that "nobody does it like him" which is was responding to? Superstars elevate role players all the time, not just Nikola.

No, I don't agree with the breadth of the previous comment. I was specifically disagreeing with some of the stuff you said about AI. Philly sucked ass on offense, AI didn't do any elevating at all. In a slow environment, he floated their offense because he was below or at league average but was quite capable at shot creation, which is what they needed. And rebounding and defense carried them the rest of the way when they were good, especially when he got hot on the J.

Jokic elevates anyone who plays with him, not just roleplayers, but he's hardly unique in that specific regard. He's just better at it than most in league history. The KCP discussion, though, clearly illustrates that someone like Lebron (FWIW, another ATG playmaker) did the same for him.

As for Gordon, yes, his looks are much easier as a 4th option on Denver. As a result he shoots a higher percentage.

I mean, again, his shooting volume isn't hugely different. His shot profile is different, as is his passing support. The environment is better for him. His last two seasons in Orlando (including the trade season), he took 12.4 and 11.7 FGA/g, which is quite comparable to his first couple full seasons with the Nuggets, and life was a lot easier for him there. This isn't a pecking order thing at all.

[Franco]

He's been to the WCF less than Luka has

They've both been to the WCF twice, genius. Yet one of them held the Larry O'Brien and the FMVP trophy.

[DimesandKnicks]

That makes him a bad rim protector, not necessarily a bad defender. You have a very narrow view about defense can be played.
And that number cha ges quite a bit in clutch situations, when he's willing to put his chest out.

But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless

If Jokic is such a bad defender why did team USA not take advantage of him when they played Serbia. You would think having like 12 future hofers they would take advantage of that and blow Serbia out of the water. You would think that. But that wasn’t the case if you look at those games they played jokic was not a terrible defender at all.

Team USA also almost lost to Sudan I ignored this the first time because it’s just a dumb argument.

[Big J]

That makes him a bad rim protector, not necessarily a bad defender. You have a very narrow view about defense can be played.
And that number cha ges quite a bit in clutch situations, when he's willing to put his chest out.

But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless

If Jokic is such a bad defender why did team USA not take advantage of him when they played Serbia. You would think having like 12 future hofers they would take advantage of that and blow Serbia out of the water. You would think that. But that wasn’t the case if you look at those games they played jokic was not a terrible defender at all.

If your argument is but, but, but he didn’t get blown out, you’ve already lost me.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

Bruce Brown in 2023 played
- 1233 minutes with Jokic, .651 ts
- 1014 minutes without Jokic, .500 ts

You really, REALLY, fumbled this one

How did Bruce Brown manage to have a 60.4 TS% 2 seasons before he played with Jokic? Was Jokic helping him from another team?

Are you seriously dim enough to think role players doing better when the superstar taking attention is on the court means they aren't good role players? Defensive attention helps players get easier looks, it doesn't mean they aren't good at their roles. Bruce Brown has scored efficiently without Jokic, granted he was playing with other stars, but acting like Jokic is unique in drawing defensive attention enabling role players to get better shots is silly because that happens for every player who draws significant defensive attention.

do you really want to keep going with this?
he had a 5% higher ts than his peak with Jokic.
moreover, after that Net stint, qhen he was so efficient, he had to sign a QO and then he signed for denver for the NTMLE.
After Jokic he god 42/2.

[kazyv]

But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless

If Jokic is such a bad defender why did team USA not take advantage of him when they played Serbia. You would think having like 12 future hofers they would take advantage of that and blow Serbia out of the water. You would think that. But that wasn’t the case if you look at those games they played jokic was not a terrible defender at all.

Team USA also almost lost to Sudan I ignored this the first time because it’s just a dumb argument.

it would only be a dumb argument in a reasonable conversation along the lines of "jokic is an average defender and one game doesn't change that". in this conversation where you insist that jokic is terrible and you just need to attack him, once you are proven wrong with an example to the opposite, your whole argument collapses. and boy have you been proven wrong with that team usa game. there's really no excuses for a team as loaded as that team to ever not attack a weak defender. they have all the tools in the world to achieve that goal. except they couldn't because jokic isn't a bad defender.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

This stuff is nonsense. All superstars make their role players better and always have. Let's look at a guy often criticized on this board, Allen Iverson. What did Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, Theo Ratliff, and George lynch do before and after playing with Iverson? They all played their best ball of their career with him.

Aaron McKie played 24 more NBA games in his career after leaving Philly, so he's an odd mention.

Eric Snow played the last few seasons of his career with Lebron, and the Cavs didn't have much need of him on-ball, so his production was lower. Ratliff was unhealthy most of his career, but routinely in DPOY conversations, had a couple shot-blocking titles without Iverson... and then his health fell apart even worse in Portland in his 30s and he scraped along until he retired. George Lynch was the same before, during and after Iverson: a weak-shooting defensive roleplayer

Not really a ton of Iverson elevating those guys. Philly's offense was routinely pretty bad. 97-06, Philly was a negative offense every season except 01 (+0.6) and 03 (+1.4). They won with defense, and the odd scoring explosion from AI. They dragged along bleh offenses and only won as their D improved. They were mostly a -4 defense under Larry Brown, and faded after 03.

As for Gordon, I see this alot here, that Jokic has elevated him because his field goal percentage has been noticeably better in Denver. Could the fact he was playing as a miscast number one option most of his time in Orlando have played a role there? Is going from the first option to the 4th option generally healthy for shooting percentages? Really magic stuff!

Yeah, his role has been a big part of it. The massive uptick in passing support on his shots is a huge factor as well, of course, and that centers around Jokic's specific abilities. The extra 1-3 FGA/g Gordon was taking in Orlando weren't really the major problem, though, it was more that him initiating his own offense on-ball wasn't ideal. The massive spike he has in shots at the rim in Denver, on the other hand, and how much less he shoots beyond 10 feet...

You can't separate Jokic out from that. It's specifically the way he impacts others, allowing them to move around and receive the ball in their best places. That is explicitly the benefit of a high-end playmaker. If AG had gone from like 17+ FGA/g down to the 8-11 FGA/g he takes, that'd be one thing, but that wasn't the case. Jokic is having an OBVIOUS impact on Gordon's efficiency. It isn't really a contestable point. The specific degree to which that is the case is a conversation piece, for sure, but denying Jokic's impact would just be non-sensical.

Disagree if you want on AI, but are you of the opinion that only Jokic elevates roles players, and that "nobody does it like him" which is was responding to? Superstars elevate role players all the time, not just Nikola.

As for Gordon, yes, his looks are much easier as a 4th option on Denver. As a result he shoots a higher percentage.

Jokic elevates any kind of players, not just role players.
He's the one adjusting, he doesn't ask them to fit into a narrow box.
That's pretty unique, in my experience.

[KyRo23]

Wait, Jokic HAS played with an all star… Russ doesn’t count?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Wait, Jokic HAS played with an all star… Russ doesn’t count?

And DeAndre, Thomas, Milsap, Nelson and Hibbert.
He had plenty of help

[Geaux_Hawks]

The detractors can nitpick Jokic as a rim protector all you want. I will happily take a center that can stuff a stat sheet the way Jokic does and still produce a top 2-3 seed team year after year.

[Sharkboy242]

Well I wasn't expecting a 16 page thread when I posted this. I don't have the energy to real all this, can someone give me the TLDR?

[DimesandKnicks]

If Jokic is such a bad defender why did team USA not take advantage of him when they played Serbia. You would think having like 12 future hofers they would take advantage of that and blow Serbia out of the water. You would think that. But that wasn’t the case if you look at those games they played jokic was not a terrible defender at all.

Team USA also almost lost to Sudan I ignored this the first time because it’s just a dumb argument.

it would only be a dumb argument in a reasonable conversation along the lines of "jokic is an average defender and one game doesn't change that". in this conversation where you insist that jokic is terrible and you just need to attack him, once you are proven wrong with an example to the opposite, your whole argument collapses. and boy have you been proven wrong with that team usa game. there's really no excuses for a team as loaded as that team to ever not attack a weak defender. they have all the tools in the world to achieve that goal. except they couldn't because jokic isn't a bad defender.

wtf are you babbling about? One game proves Jokic isn’t a bad defender because his team didn’t get blown out?

[KGDirkTD_Fan]

I think folks will be surprised at how hard it will be to maintain dominance with a contending team. OKC may be the outlier if they win it all this year, they have so many assets and the FO to turnover the roster the moment any of their role players get enticing contracts. Nuggets having to let KCP go without a replacement means they were fully leveraged already.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Jokic is the best player in the NBA. He is such a well rounded offensive player.

Having said that, the notion that he has no talent around him is absurd. Murray is as good as any guard in the NBA when he plays at the top of his abilities- in '23 he sustained that level of play for most of the playoffs.

MPJ is one of the top shooters in the NBA- quick release and can get his shot off at any time because of his height.

Aaron Gordon is a very good player too- solid defender, great lob guy, and a high basketball IQ.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic is the best player in the NBA. He is such a well rounded offensive player.

Having said that, the notion that he has no talent around him is absurd. Murray is as good as any guard in the NBA when he playing at the top of his abilities- in '23 he sustained that level of play for most of the playoffs.

MPJ is one of the top shooters in the NBA- quick release and can get his shot off at any time because of his height.

Aaron Gordon is a very good player too- solid defender, great lob guy, and a high basketball IQ.

The problem with the Nuggets has always been their depth. Not their 2-5.

[AleksandarN]

But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless

If Jokic is such a bad defender why did team USA not take advantage of him when they played Serbia. You would think having like 12 future hofers they would take advantage of that and blow Serbia out of the water. You would think that. But that wasn’t the case if you look at those games they played jokic was not a terrible defender at all.

If your argument is but, but, but he didn’t get blown out, you’ve already lost me.

Point is Jokic didn’t get exposed. You would think Kerr of all people would take advantage of him being terrible defender

[Black Jack]

Jokic has a solid core supporting cast, not sure why that was ever in question. Murray is a playoff guy and the owners won't pay for role players too much. Westbrook was a good get. They should have a chance in the po.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Jokic is the best player in the NBA. He is such a well rounded offensive player.

Having said that, the notion that he has no talent around him is absurd. Murray is as good as any guard in the NBA when he playing at the top of his abilities- in '23 he sustained that level of play for most of the playoffs.

MPJ is one of the top shooters in the NBA- quick release and can get his shot off at any time because of his height.

Aaron Gordon is a very good player too- solid defender, great lob guy, and a high basketball IQ.

The problem with the Nuggets has always been their depth. Not their 2-5.

true- when they won it all they had a decent bench though with Brown and Green

[Jedi32]

This board is completely delusional about Jokic. The guy won an MVP as a freakin' 6 seed. He's flamed out of the playoffs every year except for one run when Murray played like an all-star. He's been to the WCF less than Luka has and he has MPJ and Murray as teammates. He's a great offensive engine that is a black hole on defense. He's Harden, but better on offense. Probably even worse on defense since he plays the most important defensive position in the game. He's can't compete without Murray putting up all-star numbers, and you see the result whenever Murray is injured or under-performing. The team tanks, but Jokic still gets his numbers. He doesn't have a killer mentality, he can't carry a team unless he's surrounded by talent, and he's one of the most boring players to ever watch. Can't wait until this guy retires so the real stars can finally get their due. He isn't winning another ring ever again.

That’s funny considering your boy Luka is literally Harden but worse on offense.

i must have missed the year harden took a team to the finals.

[AleksandarN]

But deflections and rebounds makes your good defender. You guys are hopeless

If Jokic is such a bad defender why did team USA not take advantage of him when they played Serbia. You would think having like 12 future hofers they would take advantage of that and blow Serbia out of the water. You would think that. But that wasn’t the case if you look at those games they played jokic was not a terrible defender at all.

If your argument is but, but, but he didn’t get blown out, you’ve already lost me.

Why didn’t Jokic get exposed during the Olympics against USA. That’s pretty straightforward.