Cooper Flagg

[yellowknifer]

Do we have any press accounts of how Flagg performed when playing with the US select team?

There was some video on YouTube. He looked great.

[Sign5]

More defensive oriented Hayward/Bigger Butler/longer Matrix is his best comparison

[Duke4life831]

Sometimes I just think it gets to the point where people over think this stuff

You mean, as with all those arguments about how Luka's European success wouldn't translate to the NBA? Yeah.

I mean, it's possible that Flagg won't be all that, but comparisons to guys like Tayshaun Prince won't get us anywhere. If Flagg is to disappoint, then the correct player comparison needs to be an NBA guy who has Flagg's characteristics -- a two-way player who defends, runs the floor, rebounds, assists, and draws a ton of free throws.

The only guys I can think of who fit that description are All Stars -- Tatum, Butler, and so forth. But no doubt there are some lower level versions in NBA history. I was thinking of Danny Ferry, but nope too finesse and crappy defense.

Lamar Odom and Gordon Hayward are better comparisons, although Flagg is in every way better than those guys were as college freshman. He's also a bully inside, which they were not.

Ya I said this before in this thread and I’ll say it again. Ya he’s not a physical freak like a Wemby, Zion, LeBron, Shaq. Like when you saw those guys, it’s something that was hard for your brain to comprehend. So ya he doesn’t have that going for him.

Outside of that though, he basically checks off all the boxes. He’s 6’8-6’9 with a good wingspan, most are assuming around the 7’ area. I’d say he’s on the edge of good to elite level athlete. Not quite at the elite level, but on the top of the very good tier. He plays both ends. 38% from 3 his two years at Montverde and currently at 37% this season at Duke. He’s also an 80+% FT shooter. So he has the foundation to be a high level shooter. He’s playing Point Forward for Duke and leading a top 3 team in the country in assists.

So he really checks off everything you could ask for from a #1 pick, when not talking about a freak physical specimen. So he has all the physical tools and foundation you could ask for, for a potential top 5 player in the league.

There are just a few huge question marks to go with him and any prospect. Does he have an elite level work ethic? Can he stay healthy? Can he stay focused on basketball?

If he checks off those things that are very hard for any of us to know. Then you’re looking at a pretty high potential guy. But there are just so many variables. But ya, dude has all the things you could ask for as a prospect.

[SweaterBae]

Dude is leading a potential #1 seed Duke in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, as a true freshman. That's absolutely insane.

[FrodoBaggins]

Saw a couple of comments on the NBA_Draft subreddit that I liked. Puts what Cooper's doing into perspective.

This is the craziest thing to me. It comes up often, but sometimes still feels like an underrated aspect here. Cooper Flagg by all means should be a senior in high school.

I'm not calling him LeBron by any means, but if I told you there was a senior in high school capable of leading arguably the best team in the country in all five stats while being a NPOY threat, you'd think I was talking about a young LeBron James.

Flagg as a freshman in college is the same age as LeBron was a senior in high school

Flagg's age on draft night is going to be 8 days older than LeBron's.

By all means he is supposed to be still in high school, and he's the runaway favorite for NPOY in college.

He's VERY special.

[Tomtolbert]

Thanks, I just started the podcast this year, so hopefully, it will get better. Flagg has been better than I expected, certainly. I’ve seen about 15 of his games. I still think there are better college players this year. Broome is on a tier by himself, then there are three or four others I consider a tier better statistically. Flagg is in a tier with guys like Harper, Javon Small, Braden Smith, etc., who are debatable, in my opinion. So, he’s in the 5 to 10 range for me. This was always about who would be the best this year in college, not long-term NBA potential in my statments. I still think he should be 1 or 2 in the draft, just like in the preseason.

Flagg has certainly shown more offensive skills than most of us expected, even on this thread. Most of us thought he would come in blocking shots and getting steals at a higher rate with perhaps less usage. It’s been the opposite—he has the ball a lot, takes a lot of shots, and his stocks (steals and blocks) have been somewhat disappointing for those expecting 3 blocks and 2 steals per game.

Also, I think most people expected him to play small forward alongside Malauch and Brown. However, he’s played almost zero SF. Last week, about 97% of his minutes for the year were at PF/C, and even 10% of Dukes last five games were at center, according to KenPom. I think this has helped him offensively going against bigger/slower players and given him more rebounding and shot-blocking opportunities. I didn’t anticipate that when projecting his stats, but he’s been better at it than I expected.

He is stronger than you’d expect a 6'9", 205-pound, 17-year-old to be. I thought he’d have to play more SF, where his skills might look worse against smaller, quicker defenders or that he’d get pushed around by bigger guys. However, he holds his own well. He’s really good at everything, but nothing jumps off the page as elite—like crazy rebounding, blocks, or true shooting. He seems to rank around 10th to 20th in the ACC in all the key percentages like rebounds, blocks, steals, and assists. The defense is great, but Duke operates more as a defensive collective, in my opinion. Brown even has a better defensive rating. It’s not like Anthony Davis blocking five shots per game and being 8 points better in defensive rating than all of his teammates, clearly anchoring the defense.

That’s my assessment and where I think I got it wrong.

The reason why you got it wrong is because you take everything at face value and disregard/ignore all context. The nuance matters; the devil is in the details. Have to pay attention to the minutiae.

To you, Cooper was a 17 y/o, 6'9", 205-pound forward who would be too physically weak to compete against NIL-era super seniors. As if all 17-year-olds are physically the same and weight listings are always accurate and tell you how strong/physically capable a player is. Fixation on general numbers and not his actual unique physical details.

You ignored posters like me who told you that Flagg has a robust, wide-bodied frame with thick yet long limbs that gives him great strength beyond his listed weight. I compared his relative strength to Draymond and Rodman. Not to mention he has always displayed remarkable balance and the ability to absorb contact. Was there in high school. Just had to pay attention.

Did anyone honestly think he'd get physically bullied? One look and you'd see a broad-shouldered man child.

Another example where you took things too literally without acknowledging any context was Cooper's high school stats. You seriously tried to compare his SR stat line at Montverde to a bunch of other players as if you could make a one-to-one, apples-to-apples comparison. As if this was a good argument for why he'd struggle in college. Not like he won HS POY leading his team to an undefeated record against the best opposition at the HS level or anything...

Pedantic. That's the problem with your prospect analysis. The details you obsess over don't matter as much as you think they do. Or they don't mean what you think they do. Because you're missing the forest for the trees.

I’ve gotten plenty right over the years. I pegged Edey as a first-round pick after his sophomore year when no one else had him being drafted until his senior year—and even then, many still had him in the second round on draft day or late first.

Flagg is SLIGHTLY better than I expected, but don't get carried away. Comparing him to Broome like so many are doing now is a joke and I had Broome as my top player and used him as the benchmark for a reason in all the examples in the preseason with Flagg and he blows him away.

Statistically, Flagg isn’t close to players like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, or Kaufman-Renn, and Kam Jones especially once you adjust for the weak strength of schedule he's faced. You could also make a strong case for Toppin, Small, Omier, Goldin, Braden Smith, Harper, Dixon, and others being as good or better statistically too. The hype in comparison to them is still unjustified.

When Flagg faced tougher defensive competition (top 15 defensive SOS), he struggled—posting a .505 true shooting percentage. You think that dropping to 65th honestly has no affect on how he's looking now. He's slapping around a mid major league basically, of course he looks "strong". A lot of players would look strong vs this schedule.

He’s good, but he’s still not living up to the generational hype as the best freshman since LeBron you and others hyped him as. His season doesn’t even crack the top 15 freshman performances of the last 20 years statistically. He’s nowhere near the level of Zion, AD, or Beasley. I’ve done the research. They didn't play **** competition like this. The fact is, freshmen still aren’t dominating like they did in past either, and Montverde has produced its share of frontcourt disappointments with similar high school numbers in this era. This class is the outlier.

He’s SLIGHTLY better than I initially thought (again I projected 23 PER, 58% TS vs the 40th SOS, he's a 29 PER 59 TS, vs the 65th, but he’s still not the best player in college basketball this year like the world predicted in a landslide. He's not anywhere near the best freshmen this century crap either. Keep things in perspective and who he's actually doing this vs. He couldn't make a shot until he got to ACC play and it's worse than some mid major leagues of the past. Get some perspective on why he's looking strong now.

You keep referring to how Flagg is doing statistically and then you mention things like PER which is a flawed stat, and poor at assessing defense, which Flagg excels at. How about just assessing how he is doing as a player, instead of falling back on your chosen statistics?

I'd pick Broome as POY today, but the idea that he blows away Flagg is ridiculous. As is your claim of Flagg not being close to players like Trey Kaufman-Renn.

I get it - Flagg had a ton of hype, and it seems that didn't sit well with you. I don't think he was ever generational either. But players getting overhyped has existed for decades.

[Zukkoyaki]

Dude is going to be an elite glue guy at worst. I see something like Tayshaun Prince as absolute floor.

I have a feeling your opinion will age terribly.

Oh no

[LakerLegend]

Flagg just barely turned 18, scary.

[JustBuzzin]

I think my opinion has changed the more I watch him. I said from the beginning his pro comp is Ak47.

Now I think he might be a Grant Hill kind of player if the team that drafts him actually let him handle the ball and run the offense.

Wizards might actually make sense. Once they get rid of Poole they can just tear it down and rebuild around Flagg.

[12footrim]

The reason why you got it wrong is because you take everything at face value and disregard/ignore all context. The nuance matters; the devil is in the details. Have to pay attention to the minutiae.

To you, Cooper was a 17 y/o, 6'9", 205-pound forward who would be too physically weak to compete against NIL-era super seniors. As if all 17-year-olds are physically the same and weight listings are always accurate and tell you how strong/physically capable a player is. Fixation on general numbers and not his actual unique physical details.

You ignored posters like me who told you that Flagg has a robust, wide-bodied frame with thick yet long limbs that gives him great strength beyond his listed weight. I compared his relative strength to Draymond and Rodman. Not to mention he has always displayed remarkable balance and the ability to absorb contact. Was there in high school. Just had to pay attention.

Did anyone honestly think he'd get physically bullied? One look and you'd see a broad-shouldered man child.

Another example where you took things too literally without acknowledging any context was Cooper's high school stats. You seriously tried to compare his SR stat line at Montverde to a bunch of other players as if you could make a one-to-one, apples-to-apples comparison. As if this was a good argument for why he'd struggle in college. Not like he won HS POY leading his team to an undefeated record against the best opposition at the HS level or anything...

Pedantic. That's the problem with your prospect analysis. The details you obsess over don't matter as much as you think they do. Or they don't mean what you think they do. Because you're missing the forest for the trees.

I’ve gotten plenty right over the years. I pegged Edey as a first-round pick after his sophomore year when no one else had him being drafted until his senior year—and even then, many still had him in the second round on draft day or late first.

Flagg is SLIGHTLY better than I expected, but don't get carried away. Comparing him to Broome like so many are doing now is a joke and I had Broome as my top player and used him as the benchmark for a reason in all the examples in the preseason with Flagg and he blows him away.

Statistically, Flagg isn’t close to players like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, or Kaufman-Renn, and Kam Jones especially once you adjust for the weak strength of schedule he's faced. You could also make a strong case for Toppin, Small, Omier, Goldin, Braden Smith, Harper, Dixon, and others being as good or better statistically too. The hype in comparison to them is still unjustified.

When Flagg faced tougher defensive competition (top 15 defensive SOS), he struggled—posting a .505 true shooting percentage. You think that dropping to 65th honestly has no affect on how he's looking now. He's slapping around a mid major league basically, of course he looks "strong". A lot of players would look strong vs this schedule.

He’s good, but he’s still not living up to the generational hype as the best freshman since LeBron you and others hyped him as. His season doesn’t even crack the top 15 freshman performances of the last 20 years statistically. He’s nowhere near the level of Zion, AD, or Beasley. I’ve done the research. They didn't play **** competition like this. The fact is, freshmen still aren’t dominating like they did in past either, and Montverde has produced its share of frontcourt disappointments with similar high school numbers in this era. This class is the outlier.

He’s SLIGHTLY better than I initially thought (again I projected 23 PER, 58% TS vs the 40th SOS, he's a 29 PER 59 TS, vs the 65th, but he’s still not the best player in college basketball this year like the world predicted in a landslide. He's not anywhere near the best freshmen this century crap either. Keep things in perspective and who he's actually doing this vs. He couldn't make a shot until he got to ACC play and it's worse than some mid major leagues of the past. Get some perspective on why he's looking strong now.

You keep referring to how Flagg is doing statistically and then you mention things like PER which is a flawed stat, and poor at assessing defense, which Flagg excels at. How about just assessing how he is doing as a player, instead of falling back on your chosen statistics?

I'd pick Broome as POY today, but the idea that he blows away Flagg is ridiculous. As is your claim of Flagg not being close to players like Trey Kaufman-Renn.

I get it - Flagg had a ton of hype, and it seems that didn't sit well with you. I don't think he was ever generational either. But players getting overhyped has existed for decades.

So you think it's a coincidence that the last 7 POY's averaged a 37 PER? Ok. It's just stats man in an easy to understand number.



If you actually want to compare them possession to possession and go through each stat here is per 100's. It's not even comparable. Look at the rebounds, look at the blocks, look at the turnovers. That's even before you add the context of one has played the #1 defensive SOS in the country and the other the 65th. Broomes not even 100% either and is playing through shoulder issues.

You think Broome doesn't play defense? Kalk and Dickinson too. People **** on Dickinson but he's anchoring the 5th best defense in the country on kenpom , and anchored the 20th and 4th in previous years. His defensive rating is 8 points better than anyone he plays minutes with. Regardless people hide behind defense, like you'd rather have Tony Allen than James Harden or Mark Eaton than Nikola Jokic if given the choice.

[donato]

I need to know more about this 45 year old Broome guy. Can we talk more about him please?

[Handlez]

This mfer cold.

[12footrim]

I need to know more about this 45 year old Broome guy. Can we talk more about him please?

You can see him playing the #2 team in the country currently on ESPN.

[Duke4life831]

19/5/6 with 2 steals, 3-6 from 3 and 2-2 from the line. Also just in 28 minutes of play.

Not as physically as dominant as Zion was, but I think he’s a better overall prospect because of his point forward ability and his shooting ability.

Best college prospect I’ve seen since AD.

[12footrim]

19/5/6 with 2 steals, 3-6 from 3 and 2-2 from the line. Also just in 28 minutes of play.

Not as physically as dominant as Zion was, but I think he’s a better overall prospect because of his point forward ability and his shooting ability.

Best college prospect I’ve seen since AD.

Do you think Zion would have ever scored 6 points on 2-8 shooting vs Incarnate Word?

[Handlez]

19/5/6 with 2 steals, 3-6 from 3 and 2-2 from the line. Also just in 28 minutes of play.

Not as physically as dominant as Zion was, but I think he’s a better overall prospect because of his point forward ability and his shooting ability.

Best college prospect I’ve seen since AD.

Do you think Zion would have ever scored 6 points on 2-8 shooting vs Incarnate Word?

You actually think he cared about that game?

[Duke4life831]

19/5/6 with 2 steals, 3-6 from 3 and 2-2 from the line. Also just in 28 minutes of play.

Not as physically as dominant as Zion was, but I think he’s a better overall prospect because of his point forward ability and his shooting ability.

Best college prospect I’ve seen since AD.

Do you think Zion would have ever scored 6 points on 2-8 shooting vs Incarnate Word?

Haha what? Who cares? SGA put up 4 points against Vermont. AD put up 3 points against a horrible Penn State team.

Again who cares about those games? You’re talking about games where the bench played almost as much as the starters. Even the coaches know these are cakewalk of games and treat them as such.

[Ice Man]

Cooper isn't as athletic as LBJ or Zion, but he is roughly comparable to Tatum, Worthy, Duncan, Dirk. Not unworldly but plenty good enough to be an All Timer. Of course he might not become one but if so, it won't be because of insufficient athleticism.

[Braggins]

Statistically, Flagg isn’t close to players like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, or Kaufman-Renn, and Kam Jones...

This is embarrassing. Just take the L.

Here are Flaggs pace adjusted stats and bpm compared to these guys that you say he is not even close to statistically.

Cooper Flagg
per70: 26.3 pts ~ 10.1 reb ~ 5.3 ast ~ 2.1 stl ~ 1.6 blk ~ 3.4 tov
+15.6 bpm ~ 59.5% true shooting

Ryan Kalkbrenner
per70: 23.2 pts ~ 10.4 reb ~ 1.8 ast ~ 0.9 stl ~ 3.4 blk ~ 1.4 tov
+14.2 bpm ~ 71.0% true shooting

Kameron Jones
per70: 23.7 pts ~ 5.5 reb ~ 7.3 ast ~ 1.8 stl ~ 0.3 blk ~ 2.1 tov
+11.3 bpm ~ 55.9% true shooting

Hunter Dickinson
per70: 22.5 pts ~ 13.0 reb ~ 2.9 ast ~ 1.3 stl ~ 1.9 blk ~ 2.5 tov
+11.0 bpm ~ 57.3% true shooting

Tre Kaufman-Renn
per70: 26.7 pts ~ 9.0 reb ~ 3.4 ast ~ 1.0 stl ~ 0.4 blk ~ 3.3 tov
+9.2 bpm ~ 61.8% true shooting

I'm not even going to bother getting into the second group because its obviously going to be more of the same. Broome has a strong case for being the best player in NCAA basketball, but its pretty clear Flagg has the best case for #2. You were acting like it was completely absurd to suggest Flagg would be in contention for player of the year. Him arguably being technically only the 2nd best player does not at all support what you were saying before the season. You were way off.

[ReginaldDwight]

Cooper is a crazy prospect because hes so damn young. Is he the "best" player in CBB this year I don't know but hes clearly the best prospect and its not even close. Hes still built like a kid too I see him filling out nicely and being a pretty big and strong nba player.