2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[RRR3]

SGA disrespect in the larger basketball consciousness is unreal. He’s losing a poll to **** Luka on Reddit right now.

Luka has never been close to 24-25 SGA.

[GeorgeSears]

SGA disrespect in the larger basketball consciousness is unreal. He’s losing a poll to **** Luka on Reddit right now.

Jokic literally has to deal with an MVP voter that will never vote for him.

Read on Twitter

Then you have voters like Mark Jackson who leave Jokic off MVP ballots entirely by "mistake"

The disrespect is not even close to proportional.

[AleksandarN]

SGA disrespect in the larger basketball consciousness is unreal. He’s losing a poll to **** Luka on Reddit right now.

Luka has never been close to 24-25 SGA.

Never been close? Didn’t you get mad at people saying that about comparing Jokic and SGA. What a hypocrite. The more you post the more you look bad

[Jaqua92]

SGA hasnt won a thing ans hasnt been good enough in meaningful moments. He looks better than Luka but I can understand people putting Luka over him.

[Jaqua92]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

SGA this season should not be above Jokic and putting him above 2016 is asinine. Utterly asinine.

[Jaqua92]

SGA's season stats are incredibly close this year to what they were last year when he finished second to Jokic.

Rebounds, Assists, Steals, FG% slightly down and 3pt%, Points and Blocks slightly up but overall it feels almost the same. His team is better, and people who know basketball knew how big of an impact the Caruso + Hartenstein adds were and people who know basketball know that losing KCP was an important piece gone in the Denver equation.

Statistically Jokic took a massive jump forward in 3 point shooting this year which puts him top 5 in the league and he also upped several other statistics by notable increases. If Jokic finishes 2nd in the West while continuing to do what he does he'll get robbed if they give it to SGA but it won't be unexpected.... SGA's real case is if the Nuggest are in the 6th/7th/8th seed because he is close enough, even though Jokic is clearly ahead statistically.... that a big difference in the standings can get him the MVP.

SGA is scoring 2.5 more a game in the same minutes this year on slightly better efficiency. And the Thunder are on pace to win like 15 more games than Denver. Seeding doesn’t matter if it’s that massive a gap.

Straw poll shows us where it’s at now. It’s SGA’s to lose.

I believe Denver is 8.5 games behind OKC at the moment. Not sure if you can conclude that Denver will fall father behind as you propose, however. They play each other on a back to back in March in OKC and I think that outcome could be a factor.

Should be some great basketball ahead.

Both in OKC? How about that. SGA is gonna care about that because he cares about mvp

[bstein14]

SGA's season he is having combined with being a #1 seed is good enough to win MVP most years. He just happens to be doing it in the same season where Jokic is putting up the best statistical season of all-time by some metrics, including PER.

[zero rings]

SGA disrespect in the larger basketball consciousness is unreal. He’s losing a poll to **** Luka on Reddit right now.

Luka has never been close to 24-25 SGA.

Never been close? Didn’t you get mad at people saying that about comparing Jokic and SGA. What a hypocrite. The more you post the more you look bad

This season from Shai blows any season from Luka out of the water, both in the box score (BPM, WS/48, PER) and in terms of impact (+/-, net rating).

SGA is actually giving Jokic a legitimate run for MVP this year. He’s having an all time season. Luka has always been “in the conversation”, which is a polite way of saying he’s never really had a case.

[falcolombardi]

SGA's season he is having combined with being a #1 seed is good enough to win MVP most years. He just happens to be doing it in the same season where Jokic is putting up the best statistical season of all-time by some metrics, including PER.

Including per is a weird choice to highlight here when is by far the worst "advanced" stat out there short of the even worst unweighted version of PER europeans like to use for some reason

The thingh is that shai actually challenges or beats jokic in many of the "best" more hybrid advanced stats nikola dominated in previous seasons (like EPM which was considered the gold standard before shai matched jokic there)

[zero rings]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

SGA this season should not be above Jokic and putting him above 2016 is asinine. Utterly asinine.

SGA currently has a net rating of +18.5 this season. That’s a higher mark than Curry in 2016, and unlike Curry he doesn’t have anyone close to him on the roster.

You can prefer Jokic without being completely dismissive of the season Shai is having. He’s been unbelievable.

[iggymcfrack]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

SGA this season should not be above Jokic and putting him above 2016 is asinine. Utterly asinine.

SGA’s currently having the best season of all-time by EPM which goes all the way back to the 2000/2001 season. That’s probably the best metric we have that goes back that far. He’s #2 all-time in Net Rating to Draymond Green in 2016 who was part of a historical 3 man unit with Steph and Klay where all 3 guys had similar incredible plus/minus numbers. SGA’s doing it at an all-time level even though no one else on the team has even half of his plus/minus for the season.

His box score stats are close enough to Steph in 2016 as to be pretty much indistinguishable and he’s a significantly better defender. He's also been an iron man, only missing one game all season. Whether you actually prefer SGA’s season this year or Steph in 2016 is splitting hairs, but SGA’s at least having a top 10 regular season of all-time I think it’s pretty fair to say.

[lessthanjake]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

I don’t agree with this exact ordering, but I do agree that SGA has been having an incredible season. Just for some context for people using one metric that’s considered really good and goes back a lot of years, here’s the best EPM seasons ever (data starts at the 2001-02 season, and I’ve limited it to only players who played at least half a season’s worth of games):

1. 2016 Curry: 10.5
2. 2019 Harden: 9.4
3. 2022 Jokic: 9.2
4. 2009 LeBron: 9.2
5. 2025 SGA: 9.1
6. 2009 CP3: 9.1
7. 2015 Curry: 8.8
8. 2010 LeBron: 8.7
9. 2025 Jokic: 8.6
10. 2020 Giannis: 8.6
11. 2017 CP3: 8.4
12. 2023 Jokic: 8.2
13. 2021 Jokic: 8.0
14. 2018 Harden: 8.0
15. 2020 Harden: 7.9
16. 2013 LeBron: 7.9
17. 2013 CP3: 7.7
18. 2024 SGA: 7.7
19. 2024 Jokic: 7.6
20. 2016 Kawhi: 7.6
21. 2016 Durant: 7.6
22. 2014 Durant: 7.6
23. 2015 CP3: 7.6
24. 2014 CP3: 7.6
25. 2013 Durant: 7.5
26. 2024 Luka: 7.5
27. 2008 CP3: 8.5
28. 2017 Curry: 7.4
29. 2018 Curry: 7.4
30. 2017 Kawhi: 7.4
31. 2022 Embiid: 7.4
32. 2012 CP3: 7.4
33. 2016 CP3: 7.3
34. 2021 Gobert: 7.3
35. 2017 Durant: 7.2
36. 2023 Embiid: 7.2
37. 2012 LeBron: 7.2
38. 2019 Curry: 7.0
39. 2021 Embiid: 7.0

SGA’s season is not at the very top, but it’s close! Granted, comparing these values across years isn’t necessarily a perfect science, and also this season isn’t over yet so SGA could go down, but it seems fairly obvious to me that both SGA and Jokic are having all-time seasons.

[lessthanjake]

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

SGA this season should not be above Jokic and putting him above 2016 is asinine. Utterly asinine.

SGA’s currently having the best season of all-time by EPM which goes all the way back to the 2000/2001 season. That’s probably the best metric we have that goes back that far. He’s #2 all-time in Net Rating to Draymond Green in 2016 who was part of a historical 3 man unit with Steph and Klay where all 3 guys had similar incredible plus/minus numbers. SGA’s doing it at an all-time level even though no one else on the team has even half of his plus/minus for the season.

His box score stats are close enough to Steph in 2016 as to be pretty much indistinguishable and he’s a significantly better defender. He's also been an iron man, only missing one game all season. Whether you actually prefer SGA’s season this year or Steph in 2016 is splitting hairs, but SGA’s at least having a top 10 regular season of all-time I think it’s pretty fair to say.

Because this appears in contrast to the post I just made, I want to note that the bolded is not correct. My above post lists the best seasons in EPM, using the “actual EPM” version. I think that version is what we should be looking at when we’re trying to evaluate what has occurred rather than project what we think will happen in the future (which is what the “expected EPM” is geared towards). But even if we used the “expected EPM” version instead, we can quickly see that the bolded isn’t right because Jokic is actually above SGA in “expected EPM” this year. EDIT: As noted in a below post, though, SGA is currently #2 all time in “expected EPM” since actually 2025 Jokic is the only one ahead of him. Still very impressive!

[iggymcfrack]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

I don’t agree with this exact ordering, but I do agree that SGA has been having an incredible season. Just for some context for people using one metric that’s considered really good and goes back a lot of years, here’s the best EPM seasons ever (data starts at the 2001-02 season, and I’ve limited it to only players who played at least half a season’s worth of games):

1. 2016 Curry: 10.5
2. 2019 Harden: 9.4
3. 2022 Jokic: 9.2
4. 2009 LeBron: 9.2
5. 2025 SGA: 9.1
6. 2009 CP3: 9.1
7. 2015 Curry: 8.8
8. 2010 LeBron: 8.7
9. 2025 Jokic: 8.6
10. 2020 Giannis: 8.6
11. 2017 CP3: 8.4
12. 2023 Jokic: 8.2
13. 2021 Jokic: 8.0
14. 2018 Harden: 8.0
15. 2020 Harden: 7.9
16. 2013 LeBron: 7.9
17. 2013 CP3: 7.7
18. 2024 SGA: 7.7
19. 2024 Jokic: 7.6
20. 2016 Kawhi: 7.6
21. 2016 Durant: 7.6
22. 2014 Durant: 7.6
23. 2015 CP3: 7.6
24. 2014 CP3: 7.6
25. 2013 Durant: 7.5
26. 2024 Luka: 7.5
27. 2008 CP3: 8.5
28. 2017 Curry: 7.4
29. 2018 Curry: 7.4
30. 2017 Kawhi: 7.4
31. 2022 Embiid: 7.4
32. 2012 CP3: 7.4
33. 2016 CP3: 7.3
34. 2021 Gobert: 7.3
35. 2017 Durant: 7.2
36. 2023 Embiid: 7.2
37. 2012 LeBron: 7.2
38. 2019 Curry: 7.0
39. 2021 Embiid: 7.0

SGA’s season is not at the very top, but it’s close! Granted, comparing these values across years isn’t necessarily a perfect science, and also this season isn’t over yet so SGA could go down, but it seems fairly obvious to me that both SGA and Jokic are having all-time seasons.

Oh, interesting. Someone on Reddit said SGA was #1 all-time in EPM, but that doesn’t appear to be accurate. Crazy 2019 Harden was so high.

[lessthanjake]

Everyone realizes that Jokic is having an all-time season. What a lot of people tend to miss is that SGA is also having an all-time season. You bring up 2016 Curry as a tentpole season. Well IDK that Curry had a better season in 2016 than SGA is having this year. The best regular seasons this century are probably something like:

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 2025 SGA
3. 2025 Jokic

Shai’s been THAT GOOD this year. The people who still compare him to Giannis are ridiculously insulting IMO.

I don’t agree with this exact ordering, but I do agree that SGA has been having an incredible season. Just for some context for people using one metric that’s considered really good and goes back a lot of years, here’s the best EPM seasons ever (data starts at the 2001-02 season, and I’ve limited it to only players who played at least half a season’s worth of games):

1. 2016 Curry: 10.5
2. 2019 Harden: 9.4
3. 2022 Jokic: 9.2
4. 2009 LeBron: 9.2
5. 2025 SGA: 9.1
6. 2009 CP3: 9.1
7. 2015 Curry: 8.8
8. 2010 LeBron: 8.7
9. 2025 Jokic: 8.6
10. 2020 Giannis: 8.6
11. 2017 CP3: 8.4
12. 2023 Jokic: 8.2
13. 2021 Jokic: 8.0
14. 2018 Harden: 8.0
15. 2020 Harden: 7.9
16. 2013 LeBron: 7.9
17. 2013 CP3: 7.7
18. 2024 SGA: 7.7
19. 2024 Jokic: 7.6
20. 2016 Kawhi: 7.6
21. 2016 Durant: 7.6
22. 2014 Durant: 7.6
23. 2015 CP3: 7.6
24. 2014 CP3: 7.6
25. 2013 Durant: 7.5
26. 2024 Luka: 7.5
27. 2008 CP3: 8.5
28. 2017 Curry: 7.4
29. 2018 Curry: 7.4
30. 2017 Kawhi: 7.4
31. 2022 Embiid: 7.4
32. 2012 CP3: 7.4
33. 2016 CP3: 7.3
34. 2021 Gobert: 7.3
35. 2017 Durant: 7.2
36. 2023 Embiid: 7.2
37. 2012 LeBron: 7.2
38. 2019 Curry: 7.0
39. 2021 Embiid: 7.0

SGA’s season is not at the very top, but it’s close! Granted, comparing these values across years isn’t necessarily a perfect science, and also this season isn’t over yet so SGA could go down, but it seems fairly obvious to me that both SGA and Jokic are having all-time seasons.

Oh, interesting. Someone on Reddit said SGA was #1 all-time in EPM, but that doesn’t appear to be accurate. Crazy 2019 Harden was so high.

I think the confusion here is probably borne out of the fact that there’s two versions of EPM now. There’s “actual EPM” and “expected EPM.” “Actual EPM” is geared towards describing what has happened (and is the version that is what EPM was before it was split into two versions), while “Expected EPM” is geared towards projecting what will happen moving forward. They’re actually pretty different metrics. For purposes of this discussion, I think “actual EPM” is probably the appropriate measure to use, and that’s the measure I used to make that list. The Reddit post you saw probably was referring to “expected EPM.” SGA doesn’t have the highest ever in that either, but he actually is currently #2 ever, only behind Jokic’s current mark this year. SGA isn’t far off of Jokic though (9.5 for Jokic vs. 9.2 for SGA), so I suspect it’s possible that the Reddit post was made at an earlier point in the season, in which perhaps SGA was ahead of Jokic this year (in which case, he very well might’ve been #1 all time at that point, since 2025 Jokic and 2025 SGA are #1 and #2 all time in “expected EPM” at the moment).

[Special_Puppy]

Updated MVP Odds
SGA -500
Jokic +350
Giannis +8000
Tatum +25000
Wemby +30000

[Big J]

SGA has the team record and narrative pieces. You guys are discounting how much these 2 things matter in MVP races.

[-Luke-]

SGA disrespect in the larger basketball consciousness is unreal. He’s losing a poll to **** Luka on Reddit right now.

Jokic literally has to deal with an MVP voter that will never vote for him.

Read on Twitter

Then you have voters like Mark Jackson who leave Jokic off MVP ballots entirely by "mistake"

The disrespect is not even close to proportional.

Perkins played a significant role in the 2023 MVP race. Jokic was first in one Bontemps straw poll. Then Perkins played the "You're racist if you vote for the white guy" card and all of a sudden Embiid was first.

[Crunch 99]

SGA's season he is having combined with being a #1 seed is good enough to win MVP most years. He just happens to be doing it in the same season where Jokic is putting up the best statistical season of all-time by some metrics, including PER.

Fact or Fiction: Is Nikola Jokić enjoying the greatest statistical regular season ever?
https://sports.yahoo.com/fact-or-fiction-is-nikola-jokic-enjoying-the-greatest-statistical-regular-season-ever-160810426.html

Answer is yes according to this writer's opinion.

[brackdan70]

Updated MVP Odds
SGA -500
Jokic +350
Giannis +8000
Tatum +25000
Wemby +30000

Weird that Giannis is so high. It seems a pretty good chance that he won’t qualify.