Cooper Flagg

[Wingy]

Cooper isn't as athletic as LBJ or Zion, but he is roughly comparable to Tatum, Worthy, Duncan, Dirk. Not unworldly but plenty good enough to be an All Timer. Of course he might not become one but if so, it won't be because of insufficient athleticism.

I see him as a building block, top 2-3 guy on a legit contender. My guesstimate is that he’ll end up somewhere between Brown and Tatum.

Which is damned good considering I’m mentioning pretty much prototypical big 2-way wings, championship core guys who have respectively been 2nd and 1st team All NBA.

Imagine if your team was bad enough that they gunned for the playin over best chances at guys like Flagg and Wemby?

Oh wait, that’s our team.

[12footrim]

Statistically, Flagg isn’t close to players like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, or Kaufman-Renn, and Kam Jones...

This is embarrassing. Just take the L.

Here are Flaggs pace adjusted stats and bpm compared to these guys that you say he is not even close to statistically.

Cooper Flagg
per70: 26.3 pts ~ 10.1 reb ~ 5.3 ast ~ 2.1 stl ~ 1.6 blk ~ 3.4 tov
+15.6 bpm ~ 59.5% true shooting

Ryan Kalkbrenner
per70: 23.2 pts ~ 10.4 reb ~ 1.8 ast ~ 0.9 stl ~ 3.4 blk ~ 1.4 tov
+14.2 bpm ~ 71.0% true shooting

Kameron Jones
per70: 23.7 pts ~ 5.5 reb ~ 7.3 ast ~ 1.8 stl ~ 0.3 blk ~ 2.1 tov
+11.3 bpm ~ 55.9% true shooting

Hunter Dickinson
per70: 22.5 pts ~ 13.0 reb ~ 2.9 ast ~ 1.3 stl ~ 1.9 blk ~ 2.5 tov
+11.0 bpm ~ 57.3% true shooting

Tre Kaufman-Renn
per70: 26.7 pts ~ 9.0 reb ~ 3.4 ast ~ 1.0 stl ~ 0.4 blk ~ 3.3 tov
+9.2 bpm ~ 61.8% true shooting

I'm not even going to bother getting into the second group because its obviously going to be more of the same. Broome has a strong case for being the best player in NCAA basketball, but its pretty clear Flagg has the best case for #2. You were acting like it was completely absurd to suggest Flagg would be in contention for player of the year. Him arguably being technically only the 2nd best player does not at all support what you were saying before the season. You were way off.

You are forgetting perhaps the most important context there is.

He's put those numbers up against the 68th ranked defenses in the nation.

Broome vs the 1st
Kalk vs the 25th
Jones vs the 31st
Dickenson vs the 11th
Kaufman Reen vs the 14th

Do you not understand there is a big difference?

He just as well be playing in a mid major league. The ACC will probably 3, maybe 4 teams in out of 18 in the NCAA's. You think it just a coincidence that he had a 23 PER, .505 TS% and was averaging 16ppg vs the 17th rated defense OOC and then as soon as he got to **** ACC play that magically changed? No, nothing to do with this lame level of competition. Why provide any context to who those stats are on and how it actually impacts them. You take the L for being ignorant or just misleading. This guy isn't anywhere close to what the POY's this decade have done. Again 37 PER on average for the last 7 POY' vs real schedules. Flagg doesn't even have a 30 PER vs the 68 ranked defense. Hey but lets hype him up like he's on the same level as Broome everywhere I look.

[Ice Man]

Cooper has played 4 games against Top 20 opponents this season who were not in the ACC. In those games he averaged 21.3 points. Meanwhile, he averaged 8.7 points per game against Wofford, Seattle, and Incarnate Word.

In other words, the argument that he didn't score much early in the season because the opposing defenses were too good for him is 100% wrong. The actual answer is the defenses were too weak for him, so he deferred to his teammates.

[Braggins]

Spoiler:

Statistically, Flagg isn’t close to players like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, or Kaufman-Renn, and Kam Jones...

This is embarrassing. Just take the L.

Here are Flaggs pace adjusted stats and bpm compared to these guys that you say he is not even close to statistically.

Cooper Flagg
per70: 26.3 pts ~ 10.1 reb ~ 5.3 ast ~ 2.1 stl ~ 1.6 blk ~ 3.4 tov
+15.6 bpm ~ 59.5% true shooting

Ryan Kalkbrenner
per70: 23.2 pts ~ 10.4 reb ~ 1.8 ast ~ 0.9 stl ~ 3.4 blk ~ 1.4 tov
+14.2 bpm ~ 71.0% true shooting

Kameron Jones
per70: 23.7 pts ~ 5.5 reb ~ 7.3 ast ~ 1.8 stl ~ 0.3 blk ~ 2.1 tov
+11.3 bpm ~ 55.9% true shooting

Hunter Dickinson
per70: 22.5 pts ~ 13.0 reb ~ 2.9 ast ~ 1.3 stl ~ 1.9 blk ~ 2.5 tov
+11.0 bpm ~ 57.3% true shooting

Tre Kaufman-Renn
per70: 26.7 pts ~ 9.0 reb ~ 3.4 ast ~ 1.0 stl ~ 0.4 blk ~ 3.3 tov
+9.2 bpm ~ 61.8% true shooting

I'm not even going to bother getting into the second group because its obviously going to be more of the same. Broome has a strong case for being the best player in NCAA basketball, but its pretty clear Flagg has the best case for #2. You were acting like it was completely absurd to suggest Flagg would be in contention for player of the year. Him arguably being technically only the 2nd best player does not at all support what you were saying before the season. You were way off.

You are forgetting perhaps the most important context there is.

He's put those numbers up against the 68th ranked defenses in the nation.

Broome vs the 1st
Kalk vs the 25th
Jones vs the 31st
Dickenson vs the 11th
Kaufman Reen vs the 14th

Do you not understand there is a big difference?

The reason you are going with this strength of schedule angle is because it is intentionally vague/subjective and there is no standard agreed upon way to actually adjust these stats for differences in strength of schedule, so you can basically just claim whatever you want with no actual evidence. As long as a player is just somewhat close to being in the ballpark of Flagg's production and has a bit harder strength of schedule, you can just claim that actually that players stats are actually wayyy better than his even though they clearly aren't.

Kam Jones, for example, is at -2.6 pts / -5.6 reb / +2.0 ast / -0.3 stl / -1.3 blk , compared to Flaggs per70 numbers with a -4.3 bpm and -3.6% true shooting difference. Are we supposed to pretend like this is actually a better stat line because he has faced the 31st ranked defensive sos compared to 68th ranked for Flagg... Its obviously nonsense and you are just pulling stuff out of your ass.

You aren't convincing anyone with this nonsense and its kind of wild that you are refusing to give this up.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm watching college hoops this weekend so just chucking in stray college hoops thoughts.
1. NBA refs are far better at applying the rulebook.
2. The NCAA has a way better rulebook.
3. Penny Hardaway recruited a lot of talent to Memphis but if that Witchita game I just watched was right he;s a lousy coach.
4. NCAAF fans say the college portal has made their game worse but is has improved college hoops.
5. 2 24 Minute halfs >> 4 quarters.
6. Strange for an old to me that the SEC is now the top college hoops conference.

[DebVolleyball]

Apart from shooting will Flagg be as good as Ben Simmons at anything?

He seems to actually like playing basketball, so that's a start.

Also, shooting is pretty big part of the game, no? I'm pretty sure Ben Simmons would be a phenomenal player if he could shoot.

Shooting goes cold, so i don't value it much.

A healthy Ben Simmons who could shoot would average 25/8/8 while being able to guard anybody on the floor. That guy would be the next LeBron.

I agree Ben Simmons is the best player i've ever seen outside of shooting, better at defense than LeBron, and better at passing and dribbling than LeBron, and about the same rebounding.

He reminds me a bit of Amare Stoudemire how he can like gather from 8 feet or so and maneuver around people without dribbling

Wow 8 gather steps!

Do you think it’s likely Flagg > Ben Simmons?

Also, interesting fact, Flagg has a twin brother

Flagg will be a better shooter, but Ben Simmons better overall, especially if the Clippers win the championship then Simmons' stock will be HUGE.

[Ssj16]

Imagine if your team was bad enough that they gunned for the playin over best chances at guys like Flagg and Wemby?

Oh wait, that’s our team.

Not sure what team you're repping but this sounds like my home town team in the Raps

[zero rings]

Apart from shooting will Flagg be as good as Ben Simmons at anything?

He seems to actually like playing basketball, so that's a start.

Also, shooting is pretty big part of the game, no? I'm pretty sure Ben Simmons would be a phenomenal player if he could shoot.

[Ice Man]

A healthy Ben Simmons who could shoot would average 25/8/8 while being able to guard anybody on the floor. That guy would be the next LeBron.

[The-Stallion70]

He reminds me a bit of Amare Stoudemire how he can like gather from 8 feet or so and maneuver around people without dribbling

[azcatz11]

Apart from shooting will Flagg be as good as Ben Simmons at anything?

He seems to actually like playing basketball, so that's a start.

Also, shooting is pretty big part of the game, no? I'm pretty sure Ben Simmons would be a phenomenal player if he could shoot.

Shooting goes cold, so i don't value it much.

A healthy Ben Simmons who could shoot would average 25/8/8 while being able to guard anybody on the floor. That guy would be the next LeBron.

I agree Ben Simmons is the best player i've ever seen outside of shooting, better at defense than LeBron, and better at passing and dribbling than LeBron, and about the same rebounding.

Do you think it’s likely Flagg > Ben Simmons?

Also, interesting fact, Flagg has a twin brother

[JustBuzzin]

Apart from shooting will Flagg be as good as Ben Simmons at anything?

He seems to actually like playing basketball, so that's a start.

Also, shooting is pretty big part of the game, no? I'm pretty sure Ben Simmons would be a phenomenal player if he could shoot.

Shooting goes cold, so i don't value it much.

A healthy Ben Simmons who could shoot would average 25/8/8 while being able to guard anybody on the floor. That guy would be the next LeBron.

I agree Ben Simmons is the best player i've ever seen outside of shooting, better at defense than LeBron, and better at passing and dribbling than LeBron, and about the same rebounding.

Do you think it’s likely Flagg > Ben Simmons?

Also, interesting fact, Flagg has a twin brother

Flagg is much better than Simmons was as a college prospect.

I went from comparing him to Ak47 to now thinking he's going to be a legit #1 option. He started off slow as a scorer, but he's now a consistent 20+ppg scorer.

My only thing is I don't know what position to play him. Is he a small ball pf or legit wing.

Either way I like the ball in his hands as a point forward. He reminds me of a bigger Grant Hill.

[Wingy]

I’ve thought about a separate thread, but figure it would just get moved to the trade board.

Is there a team that could make an offer to pry away #1 overall and get Flagg?

OKC has the assets. Go with a massive lineup:
- SGA
- JDub
- Flagg
- Chet
- IHart

What would it take if it were you?

[tmorgan]

I’ve thought about a separate thread, but figure it would just get moved to the trade board.

Is there a team that could make an offer to pry away #1 overall and get Flagg?

OKC has the assets. Go with a massive lineup:
- SGA
- JDub
- Flagg
- Chet
- IHart

What would it take if it were you?

Can’t give you specifics, but yeah, I think the #1 overall pick team could be tempted to give up Flagg. He’s not an essentially impossible guy to trade for like rookie LeBron or Wemby. I’m sure OKC could create a big enough pile to generate interest, though I imagine it would need to include Williams or Holmgren, not just picks that likely won’t be lottery.

[Handlez]

Coop looking like McHale.

[Tomtolbert]

I’ve gotten plenty right over the years. I pegged Edey as a first-round pick after his sophomore year when no one else had him being drafted until his senior year—and even then, many still had him in the second round on draft day or late first.

Flagg is SLIGHTLY better than I expected, but don't get carried away. Comparing him to Broome like so many are doing now is a joke and I had Broome as my top player and used him as the benchmark for a reason in all the examples in the preseason with Flagg and he blows him away.

Statistically, Flagg isn’t close to players like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, or Kaufman-Renn, and Kam Jones especially once you adjust for the weak strength of schedule he's faced. You could also make a strong case for Toppin, Small, Omier, Goldin, Braden Smith, Harper, Dixon, and others being as good or better statistically too. The hype in comparison to them is still unjustified.

When Flagg faced tougher defensive competition (top 15 defensive SOS), he struggled—posting a .505 true shooting percentage. You think that dropping to 65th honestly has no affect on how he's looking now. He's slapping around a mid major league basically, of course he looks "strong". A lot of players would look strong vs this schedule.

He’s good, but he’s still not living up to the generational hype as the best freshman since LeBron you and others hyped him as. His season doesn’t even crack the top 15 freshman performances of the last 20 years statistically. He’s nowhere near the level of Zion, AD, or Beasley. I’ve done the research. They didn't play **** competition like this. The fact is, freshmen still aren’t dominating like they did in past either, and Montverde has produced its share of frontcourt disappointments with similar high school numbers in this era. This class is the outlier.

He’s SLIGHTLY better than I initially thought (again I projected 23 PER, 58% TS vs the 40th SOS, he's a 29 PER 59 TS, vs the 65th, but he’s still not the best player in college basketball this year like the world predicted in a landslide. He's not anywhere near the best freshmen this century crap either. Keep things in perspective and who he's actually doing this vs. He couldn't make a shot until he got to ACC play and it's worse than some mid major leagues of the past. Get some perspective on why he's looking strong now.

You keep referring to how Flagg is doing statistically and then you mention things like PER which is a flawed stat, and poor at assessing defense, which Flagg excels at. How about just assessing how he is doing as a player, instead of falling back on your chosen statistics?

I'd pick Broome as POY today, but the idea that he blows away Flagg is ridiculous. As is your claim of Flagg not being close to players like Trey Kaufman-Renn.

I get it - Flagg had a ton of hype, and it seems that didn't sit well with you. I don't think he was ever generational either. But players getting overhyped has existed for decades.

So you think it's a coincidence that the last 7 POY's averaged a 37 PER? Ok. It's just stats man in an easy to understand number.



If you actually want to compare them possession to possession and go through each stat here is per 100's. It's not even comparable. Look at the rebounds, look at the blocks, look at the turnovers. That's even before you add the context of one has played the #1 defensive SOS in the country and the other the 65th. Broomes not even 100% either and is playing through shoulder issues.

Of course players with higher PERs will generally be better players. But it's not close to being some superior all in one stat. And it's terrible at capturing defense, which I already explained. It's also not a stat is intended to be compared across different seasons.

You think Broome doesn't play defense? Kalk and Dickinson too. People **** on Dickinson but he's anchoring the 5th best defense in the country on kenpom , and anchored the 20th and 4th in previous years. His defensive rating is 8 points better than anyone he plays minutes with. Regardless people hide behind defense, like you'd rather have Tony Allen than James Harden or Mark Eaton than Nikola Jokic if given the choice.

Plenty of strawmanning here which you seem to do often.

[Special_Puppy]

I’ve thought about a separate thread, but figure it would just get moved to the trade board.

Is there a team that could make an offer to pry away #1 overall and get Flagg?

OKC has the assets. Go with a massive lineup:
- SGA
- JDub
- Flagg
- Chet
- IHart

What would it take if it were you?

I’m sure there’s a point where it makes sense to go with picks+a young player over Flagg but FOMO is a hell of a thing.

[DirtyDez]

A healthy Ben Simmons who could shoot would average 25/8/8 while being able to guard anybody on the floor. That guy would be the next LeBron.

Ben Simmons could be the most durable player in the league and still not have an ounce of LeBron’s BBIQ or overall ability to carry a franchise like the first time around in Cleveland.

[Exp0sed]

Apart from shooting will Flagg be as good as Ben Simmons at anything?


Shooting goes cold, so i don't value it much.


I agree Ben Simmons is the best player i've ever seen outside of shooting, better at defense than LeBron, and better at passing and dribbling than LeBron, and about the same rebounding.

Do you think it’s likely Flagg > Ben Simmons?

Also, interesting fact, Flagg has a twin brother

Flagg is much better than Simmons was as a college prospect.

I went from comparing him to Ak47 to now thinking he's going to be a legit #1 option. He started off slow as a scorer, but he's now a consistent 20+ppg scorer.

My only thing is I don't know what position to play him. Is he a small ball pf or legit wing.

Either way I like the ball in his hands as a point forward. He reminds me of a bigger Grant Hill.

he's a wing imo. the Tatum comps are the closest imo from current players, a bigger Tatum that plays and looks to score more inside than out to the 3 pt line.

[scrabbarista]

Yay, Flagg!!!