Recipe for the Future (if we do or don’t blow it up)

[bwgood77]

They'd have to waive Cody, Micic and Richards, and even after that they'd be $8m over the 2nd apron by signing the FRP, SRP and 6 vet mins.

So yeah you'd be in same spot as this season but down Cody and Richards.

Waiving and stretching Beal doesn't really make any sense, given our cap situation, if we can get under the second apron.

We would still be over the cap with no space. Even if we got off Beal's contract, we would not create cap space. Beal has played hard and pretty well when he is available.

The other negative of waiving him and stretching is you have to have the cap hit for 4 years, It would only be $13 million a year, but we'd be much better served in 2 years allowing him to expire and creating over $50 million in cap space in 2027. That $13-$14 million a year hitting our cap space with a stretch would prevent us from making moves for 4 players, with our cap being hit, limiting flexibility through 2029.

Keeping KD and Book, we have proven we don't have enough young talent, athleticism, but most importantly, a big rotation that can provide resistance at the rim as well as finishing. KD won't have much value after this summer, with 1 year left, and he could leave anyway.

Then if Book wants out, we could possibly get our unprotected 27 and 29 picks, as well as one of their own, along with some useful players. Amen would be nice, but more realistically, one of Jabari Smith or Eason, as well as one of Green, Brooks or FVV for filler. Maybe throw in Whitmore as well.

Houston desperately needs a go to scorer. They have the youth, athleticism and defense, but Booker could put them over the top. They have said if Book became available, they'd be heavily interested.

We are already 11th in the west, and likely SA passes us next year (if not this year), and Utah probably starts to get better quickly after this summer.

So that 27 pick could get us some serious talent, and possibly the 29 pick. We control none of our picks through 2031, which is awful.

Unless we can nail late picks after swaps and trading the 31 unprotected pick for 3 late firsts, if we have proper scouting, we'd be looking good.

The KD trade killed our depth. Think about having Bridges, Cam, a trade piece for Crowder (Grayson Allen was available), along with our 23 pick in his 3rd year, and our pick this year, which now looks like a lottery pick. Then the 27, 28 and 29 picks. It killed our depth and future.

We desperately need to retool. I am not sure what we can get for KD with one year left at his age, but likely a pretty good deal. If Butler still wants out of GS, maybe we still have the offer of KD, who given more thought, might be ok with GS this summer when he's not blindsided. We could have traded him for Butler, Kuminga and a couple firsts. If Minnesota can get under the apron, maybe Randle, who would be a big expiring, Naz Reid and whatever picks they have.

In response to the 3 bolded points from your post above. What if there was a way to trade KD/ Booker while getting some young talent/ pieces and also get a few of our pick swaps back from Washington? On the trade board, in the " Suppose Phoenix blows it all up" thread. There was an interesting suggestion by X Man:
viewtopic.php?p=117208147#p117208147

In which a 4 team trade has us giving up KD (to San Antonio). And Booker to Houston. And we'd be getting back something like:

Houston- Booker for J Green/ Landale/Sheppard/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st/ PHX 29' 1st.

And for KD,

San Antonio- KD for Vassell/ Barnes or K Johnson/ Sochan/ SAS 25' 1st ( 10th pick) / ATL 25' 1st ( 15th pick).
*** The 10th pick and Sheppard ( from Rockets deal) rerouted to Washington for our 26' and 28' 1st swaps back and Holmes. This would give us a post trade package of:

J Green/ Vassell/ Barnes/ Sochan/ Landale/ Holmes/ and our picks:

- PHNX 25' 1st ( Houston).
- PHNX 26' 1st ( pick swap returned) Wash.
- PHNX 27' 1st ( Houston).
- PHNX 28' 1st ( pick swap returned) Wash.
- PHNX 29' 1st ( Houston).
- ATL 25' 1st ( 15th pick).
- CLE 25' 1st ( 29th pick).
- CLE 27' 1st.
- CLE 29' 1st.
DEN 25' 2nd ( 54th pick).
** We could then keep Landale and trade Allen/ O' neale/ Barnes/ Holmes for more players/ picks/ 1sts and/ or 2nds too.
( post trade) .........................................................
J Green / Vassell/ Dunn/ Barnes/ Richards.
Milicic/ Allen/ Sochan/ O'neale/ Landale.
Gillespie/ Martin/ Vassell/ Bol Bol/ Holmes.

We'd really only be missing our 2030 and 2031 1sts. And could target those years ( picks) in trades using the above mentioned players??

If we could successfully do this trade, maybe with some slight alterations ( *if needed) it seems like a pretty good outcome to me.

I don't think that roster goes anywhere or really has much for guys that will be that good in the future. Of course the picks would be nice but no way we take back marginal players like those.

[zimpy27]

Suns will already be under the second apron next season, the Nurkic trade took care of that. If they want to move under the first apron, they have movable contracts like Royce and Grayson.

They'll have more flexibility in the off-season if they want to build a better supporting cast around Booker and KD, no need to waive Beal.

They'd have to waive Cody, Micic and Richards, and even after that they'd be $8m over the 2nd apron by signing the FRP, SRP and 6 vet mins.

So yeah you'd be in same spot as this season but down Cody and Richards.

Waiving and stretching Beal doesn't really make any sense, given our cap situation, if we can get under the second apron.

We would still be over the cap with no space. Even if we got off Beal's contract, we would not create cap space. Beal has played hard and pretty well when he is available.

The other negative of waiving him and stretching is you have to have the cap hit for 4 years, It would only be $13 million a year, but we'd be much better served in 2 years allowing him to expire and creating over $50 million in cap space in 2027. That $13-$14 million a year hitting our cap space with a stretch would prevent us from making moves for 4 players, with our cap being hit, limiting flexibility through 2029.

Keeping KD and Book, we have proven we don't have enough young talent, athleticism, but most importantly, a big rotation that can provide resistance at the rim as well as finishing. KD won't have much value after this summer, with 1 year left, and he could leave anyway.

Then if Book wants out, we could possibly get our unprotected 27 and 29 picks, as well as one of their own, along with some useful players. Amen would be nice, but more realistically, one of Jabari Smith or Eason, as well as one of Green, Brooks or FVV for filler. Maybe throw in Whitmore as well.

Houston desperately needs a go to scorer. They have the youth, athleticism and defense, but Booker could put them over the top. They have said if Book became available, they'd be heavily interested.

We are already 11th in the west, and likely SA passes us next year (if not this year), and Utah probably starts to get better quickly after this summer.

So that 27 pick could get us some serious talent, and possibly the 29 pick. We control none of our picks through 2031, which is awful.

Unless we can nail late picks after swaps and trading the 31 unprotected pick for 3 late firsts, if we have proper scouting, we'd be looking good.

The KD trade killed our depth. Think about having Bridges, Cam, a trade piece for Crowder (Grayson Allen was available), along with our 23 pick in his 3rd year, and our pick this year, which now looks like a lottery pick. Then the 27, 28 and 29 picks. It killed our depth and future.

We desperately need to retool. I am not sure what we can get for KD with one year left at his age, but likely a pretty good deal. If Butler still wants out of GS, maybe we still have the offer of KD, who given more thought, might be ok with GS this summer when he's not blindsided. We could have traded him for Butler, Kuminga and a couple firsts. If Minnesota can get under the apron, maybe Randle, who would be a big expiring, Naz Reid and whatever picks they have.

Booker-Durant is your best chance of contention. If KD is happy to re-sign then I think stretch-waiving Beal is the best course to contending next 2 seasons.

If Durant wants to go then trading him is the right path, you will get some youth back and maybe build for something in the future.



But just so you can see this play out.

This team below is a few million below the 2nd apron if you stretch+waive Beal:
Booker, Allen, Dunn, Durant, Richards
Micic, Cody, O'Neale, 5.6m TaxMLE, Plumlee
Monte, CLE25FRP, DEN25SRP, Bol, Oso,

Now, you can aggregate up to $50m with Micic, Cody, O'Neale, Allen, Richards if you want in trade. It becomes a lot easier to put together pieces you want.

[Slim Charless]

They'd have to waive Cody, Micic and Richards, and even after that they'd be $8m over the 2nd apron by signing the FRP, SRP and 6 vet mins.

So yeah you'd be in same spot as this season but down Cody and Richards.

Waiving and stretching Beal doesn't really make any sense, given our cap situation, if we can get under the second apron.

We would still be over the cap with no space. Even if we got off Beal's contract, we would not create cap space. Beal has played hard and pretty well when he is available.

The other negative of waiving him and stretching is you have to have the cap hit for 4 years, It would only be $13 million a year, but we'd be much better served in 2 years allowing him to expire and creating over $50 million in cap space in 2027. That $13-$14 million a year hitting our cap space with a stretch would prevent us from making moves for 4 players, with our cap being hit, limiting flexibility through 2029.

Keeping KD and Book, we have proven we don't have enough young talent, athleticism, but most importantly, a big rotation that can provide resistance at the rim as well as finishing. KD won't have much value after this summer, with 1 year left, and he could leave anyway.

Then if Book wants out, we could possibly get our unprotected 27 and 29 picks, as well as one of their own, along with some useful players. Amen would be nice, but more realistically, one of Jabari Smith or Eason, as well as one of Green, Brooks or FVV for filler. Maybe throw in Whitmore as well.

Houston desperately needs a go to scorer. They have the youth, athleticism and defense, but Booker could put them over the top. They have said if Book became available, they'd be heavily interested.

We are already 11th in the west, and likely SA passes us next year (if not this year), and Utah probably starts to get better quickly after this summer.

So that 27 pick could get us some serious talent, and possibly the 29 pick. We control none of our picks through 2031, which is awful.

Unless we can nail late picks after swaps and trading the 31 unprotected pick for 3 late firsts, if we have proper scouting, we'd be looking good.

The KD trade killed our depth. Think about having Bridges, Cam, a trade piece for Crowder (Grayson Allen was available), along with our 23 pick in his 3rd year, and our pick this year, which now looks like a lottery pick. Then the 27, 28 and 29 picks. It killed our depth and future.

We desperately need to retool. I am not sure what we can get for KD with one year left at his age, but likely a pretty good deal. If Butler still wants out of GS, maybe we still have the offer of KD, who given more thought, might be ok with GS this summer when he's not blindsided. We could have traded him for Butler, Kuminga and a couple firsts. If Minnesota can get under the apron, maybe Randle, who would be a big expiring, Naz Reid and whatever picks they have.

Booker-Durant is your best chance of contention. If KD is happy to re-sign then I think stretch-waiving Beal is the best course to contending next 2 seasons.

If Durant wants to go then trading him is the right path, you will get some youth back and maybe build for something in the future.

Id rather us just move off both Booker and KD. However, if we're keeping Booker, there's a number of places to send KD to keep winning.

I wouldn't mind keeping Beal actually. He's fine with being a 6th man and can produce numbers there. He doesn’t suck, he's just overpaid.

Stretch waiving him is a big mistake IMO.

[bwgood77]

Keeping Book and KD might give us our best chance to contend. Like 1% instead of .1%, but I'd rather start looking at the further then looking at this "so you're telling me there's a chance?" at 1%. Though I think that's being generous.

[Frank Lee]

I think y’all are dreaming.

No way Wishbia comes off of Book and/or KD unless he is given a kings ransom… which is unlikely. All this trade KD talk is media driven as the pack of mad content speculators try to bolster their click count. They are the same as a few here, only with a larger forum. Half of them probably come here for content and ideas. They have to chatter about something. Vultures all have to get in on the kill.

We’ll keep our less than dynamic duo and once again try to improve some faulty areas. I’d count on Marcus Smart being on Wishbia’s target as he knows the name. There will be some marginal big floating around too. Beal is an accepted annoyance at this point. O’Neal and Allen dressed up with picks are our tickets to ride.

I think the butchers will make getting under the second apron their priority… and then address things again mid season.

There isn’t but two or three teams who may be trading partners for KD or Book. And unlikely they will be desperate enough to give a reasonable return. Furthermore,
I really don’t think KD and Book have quite as much value as what is perceived here. You aren’t going to find a team willing to gut their rosters like the MadMatter did, the F-wad.

What are you talking about?

We were gonna get a ransom (Kuminga, Butler, 2FRPs, multi SRPs) for him until Durant nixed the idea of returning to the Dubs. That's been reported by many sources. Jesus, I thought that after BW got proven wrong on that, we wouldn't have to read this "Durant is worth nothing" drivel anymore. Yet here we are with you doing your negative thing again.

Durant will get us a ton. Whoever doesn't win the title this year will want to add on to their team.

I know you love to be negative Frank-about everything Suns, next time TRY and focus on facts somewhat in between making clever nicknames for players.

He’s the facts you f-n Mr knowitall. KD won’t be traded to GS so that offer is moot to boot. The only thing it proves is Wishbea is ham strung by KDs willingness to extend where ever he ends up. But hey, I’m sure the rest of the league will take notice to make sure they offer even more.

This isn’t being negative…this is realistic. There are not but a few teams that can offer enough, and even then, and unextended KD has to agree. We have no leverage here. And even less when the fire sale sign goes up.

I just wouldn’t count on a trade. It’s not blow it up time yet.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

Waiving and stretching Beal doesn't really make any sense, given our cap situation, if we can get under the second apron.

We would still be over the cap with no space. Even if we got off Beal's contract, we would not create cap space. Beal has played hard and pretty well when he is available.

The other negative of waiving him and stretching is you have to have the cap hit for 4 years, It would only be $13 million a year, but we'd be much better served in 2 years by allowing him to expire and creating over $50 million in cap space in 2027. That $13-$14 million a year hitting our cap space with a stretch would prevent us from making moves for 4 players, with our cap being hit, limiting flexibility through 2029.

Keeping KD and Book, we have proven we don't have enough young talent and athleticism, but most importantly, a big rotation that can provide resistance at the rim as well as finishing. KD won't have much value after this summer, with 1 year left, and he could leave anyway.

Then if Book wants out, we could possibly get our unprotected 27 and 29 picks, as well as one of their own, along with some useful players. Amen would be nice, but more realistically, one of Jabari Smith or Eason, as well as one of Green, Brooks or FVV for filler. Maybe throw in Whitmore as well.

Houston desperately needs a go to scorer. They have the youth, athleticism and defense, but Booker could put them over the top. They have said if Book became available, they'd be heavily interested.

We are already 11th in the west, and likely SA passes us next year (if not this year), and Utah probably starts to get better quickly after this summer.

So that 27 pick could get us some serious talent, and possibly the 29 pick. We control none of our picks through 2031, which is awful.

Unless we can nail late picks after swaps and trading the 31 unprotected pick for 3 late firsts, if we have proper scouting, we'd be looking good.

The KD trade killed our depth. Think about having Bridges, Cam, a trade piece for Crowder (Grayson Allen was available), along with our 23 pick in his 3rd year, and our pick this year, which now looks like a lottery pick. Then the 27, 28 and 29 picks. It killed our depth and future.

We desperately need to retool. I am not sure what we can get for KD with one year left at his age, but likely a pretty good deal. If Butler still wants out of GS, maybe we still have the offer of KD, who given more thought, might be ok with GS this summer when he's not blindsided. We could have traded him for Butler, Kuminga and a couple firsts. If Minnesota can get under the apron, maybe Randle, who would be a big expiring, Naz Reid and whatever picks they have.

In response to the 3 bolded points from your post above. What if there was a way to trade KD/ Booker while getting some young talent/ pieces and also get a few of our pick swaps back from Washington? On the trade board, in the " Suppose Phoenix blows it all up" thread. There was an interesting suggestion by X Man:
viewtopic.php?p=117208147#p117208147

In which a 4 team trade has us giving up KD (to San Antonio). And Booker to Houston. And we'd be getting back something like:

Houston- Booker for J Green/ Landale/Sheppard/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st/ PHX 29' 1st.

And for KD,

San Antonio- KD for Vassell/ Barnes or K Johnson/ Sochan/ SAS 25' 1st ( 10th pick) / ATL 25' 1st ( 15th pick).
*** The 10th pick and Sheppard ( from Rockets deal) rerouted to Washington for our 26' and 28' 1st swaps back and Holmes. This would give us a post trade package of:

J Green/ Vassell/ Barnes/ Sochan/ Landale/ Holmes/ and our picks:

- PHNX 25' 1st ( Houston).
- PHNX 26' 1st ( pick swap returned) Wash.
- PHNX 27' 1st ( Houston).
- PHNX 28' 1st ( pick swap returned) Wash.
- PHNX 29' 1st ( Houston).
- ATL 25' 1st ( 15th pick).
- CLE 25' 1st ( 29th pick).
- CLE 27' 1st.
- CLE 29' 1st.
DEN 25' 2nd ( 54th pick).
** We could then keep Landale and trade Allen/ O' neale/ Barnes/ Holmes for more players/ picks/ 1sts and/ or 2nds too.
( post trade) .........................................................
J Green / Vassell/ Dunn/ Barnes/ Richards.
Milicic/ Allen/ Sochan/ O'neale/ Landale.
Gillespie/ Martin/ Vassell/ Bol Bol/ Holmes.

We'd really only be missing our 2030 and 2031 1sts. And could target those years ( picks) in trades using the above mentioned players??

If we could successfully do this trade, maybe with some slight alterations ( *if needed) it seems like a pretty good outcome to me.

I don't think that roster goes anywhere or really has much for guys that will be that good in the future. Of course the picks would be nice but no way we take back marginal players like those.

Well, this is obviously more of a pick-based full rebuild package to allow us to completely bottom out for more high-end lottery talent due to getting our picks back. And it clearly makes sense because we'd need to hit on some high-end lottery talent to replace Bookers' and KDs role. So in this picks-oriented premise, we'd get all of our picks back until 2030, and having control of our picks would again allow us to fully bottom out and capitalize on the lottery to rebuild our roster similar to OKC, Houston, with plenty of young, exciting, athletic talent on cost-controlled dals and having financial flexibility. So "going nowhere" but having control of at least the next 5 years is obviously much better than being where we're at now still sucking and being completely irrelevant but with no picks, almost no young talent, and no future.

Also, we'll be able to trade/ aggregate players and attach some (NOT ALL) of our picks in a package for other high-end players. Basically, we could still trade any of Allen, O'neale, Landale, Holmes, and picks in a deal for a bigger-name player. that we could add to Beal, and when he expires, we'll have a $50 million expiring to trade for a big name or just let him come off the books to offer big contracts to star players/high-tier talents. For instance, one name that comes to mind that I've mentioned a lot is Michael Porter Jr! Denver is looking to get off of his money, Maybe something like Barnes/Martin/ Milicic/ 2 1sts for MPJr. That'd give Denver around 36 million in expiring contracts saving Denver upwards of $42 million while also giving them two 1sts to add for trades for depth pieces or to draft cost-controlled options.

Then we'd have a core of
J Green/ Allen/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
Morris/ O'neale/ Vassell/ Sochan/ Landale.
Larrea/ Brea/ Sochan/ Bol Bol/ Beringer.

Do you really think that a core of Green, Vassell, Dunn, and Porter Jr wouldn't be that good in the future? Keep in mind the key detail that we'll be bottoming out intentionally for top 5 lottery talent and that'll be wherein our star talent will come from. Also, being out of the 2nd apron will allow us to sign key free agents too. Now if you've changed course on your perspective and are instead looking to now try and maintain a better competitive trajectory around Booker, then you could of course forget our picks and just look at any of Denver, Minnesota, or Milwaukee and opt for vet player depth in a soft rebuild/ quick reload, But is that really the answer for our best long term future?

I guess maybe we could just Trade both KD and Booker and trade KD to one of:

1- Denver for Porter Jr/ Saric/ Westbrook/ Braun/Holmes/ Tyson and no picks.
2- Minnesota for Randle/Reid/ Dillingham/ MIN 32' 1st.
3- Milwaukee for Kuzma/ Portis/ Connaughton/ Jackson/ Smith/ MIL 31' 1st

And then trade Booker to Houston for J Green/ Landale/ Whitmore/ our 3 firsts back.

So you'd then have these potential rosters:

1- Post Denver/ Houston trade:

Westbrook/Beal/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
J Green / Allen / Whitmore / Saric / Landale.
Morris/ Braun/ O'neale/ Holmes/ Ighodaro.
PHX 25' 1st, PHX 27' 1st, PHX 29' 1st, CLE 25' 1st, CLE 27' 1st, CLE 29' 1st.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2- Minnesota/ Houston trade

Beal/ J Green/ Dunn/ Randle/ Richards.
Morris/ Allen/ O'neale/ Landale/ Reid.
Dillingham/ Dunn/ Whitmore/ Bol/ Ighodaro.
PHX 25' 1st, PHX 27' 1st, PHX 29' 1st, CLE 25' 1st, CLE 27' 1st, CLE 29' 1st. + DT 25' 1st (17th pick)/ MIN 32' 1st.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
3- Milwaukee/ Houston trade

Beal/ J Green/ Dunn/ Kuzma/ Richards.
Morris /Allen /Whitmore /Portis /Landale.
KPJr /Connaughton /O'neale / Smith/ Landale.

** Andre Jackson Jr in the G League on two-way to work on his point guard skills.
PHX 25' 1st, PHX 27' 1st, PHX 29' 1st, CLE 25' 1st, CLE 27' 1st, CLE 29' 1st. + MIL 31' 1st.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Just trading KD and keeping Booker (Soft Rebuild)
1-KD to Denver trade

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
Westbrook/ Allen/ O'neale/ Holmes/ Saric.
Braun/ Dunn/ Tyson/ Bol Bol/ Ighodaro.
PHX 25' 1st, PHX 27' 1st, PHX 29' 1st, CLE 25' 1st, CLE 27' 1st, CLE 29' 1st.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2- KD to Minnesota trade

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Randle/ Richards.
Morris/ Allen/ O'neale/ Bol Bol / Reid.
Dillingham/ Beal/ O'neale/ Ighodaro/ Randle.
PHX 25' 1st, PHX 27' 1st, PHX 29' 1st, CLE 25' 1st, CLE 27' 1st, CLE 29' 1st. + DET 25' 1st/ MIN 32' 1st (17th pick).
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
3- KD trade to Milwaukee

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Kuzma/ Richards.
Morris/ Allen/ O'neale/ Portis/ Ighodaro.
KPJr/ Connaughton/ Allen/ Smith/ Portis.
PHX 25' 1st, PHX 27' 1st, PHX 29' 1st, CLE 25' 1st, CLE 27' 1st, CLE 29' 1st. + MIL 31' 1st.

[Slim Charless]

I think y’all are dreaming.

No way Wishbia comes off of Book and/or KD unless he is given a kings ransom… which is unlikely. All this trade KD talk is media driven as the pack of mad content speculators try to bolster their click count. They are the same as a few here, only with a larger forum. Half of them probably come here for content and ideas. They have to chatter about something. Vultures all have to get in on the kill.

We’ll keep our less than dynamic duo and once again try to improve some faulty areas. I’d count on Marcus Smart being on Wishbia’s target as he knows the name. There will be some marginal big floating around too. Beal is an accepted annoyance at this point. O’Neal and Allen dressed up with picks are our tickets to ride.

I think the butchers will make getting under the second apron their priority… and then address things again mid season.

There isn’t but two or three teams who may be trading partners for KD or Book. And unlikely they will be desperate enough to give a reasonable return. Furthermore,
I really don’t think KD and Book have quite as much value as what is perceived here. You aren’t going to find a team willing to gut their rosters like the MadMatter did, the F-wad.

What are you talking about?

We were gonna get a ransom (Kuminga, Butler, 2FRPs, multi SRPs) for him until Durant nixed the idea of returning to the Dubs. That's been reported by many sources. Jesus, I thought that after BW got proven wrong on that, we wouldn't have to read this "Durant is worth nothing" drivel anymore. Yet here we are with you doing your negative thing again.

Durant will get us a ton. Whoever doesn't win the title this year will want to add on to their team.

I know you love to be negative Frank-about everything Suns, next time TRY and focus on facts somewhat in between making clever nicknames for players.

He’s the facts you f-n Mr knowitall. KD won’t be traded to GS so that offer is moot to boot. The only thing it proves is Wishbea is ham strung by KDs willingness to extend where ever he ends up. But hey, I’m sure the rest of the league will take notice to make sure they offer even more.

This isn’t being negative…this is realistic. There are not but a few teams that can offer enough, and even then, and unextended KD has to agree. We have no leverage here. And even less when the fire sale sign goes up.

I just wouldn’t count on a trade. It’s not blow it up time yet.

Its NOT a mute point bro. Its very simple:

-Durant solicited that offer from a team in the middle of the season. When alot of GMs either didnt think he was available or ignored that he was.

-The off-season when other GMs have an idea that he's available and will have time to develop a package will increase the offers.

-The teams that fail in the playoffs will want to make a move. Either because their fans/owners demand it or cause the GMs in question will have a hot seat.

-Players talk and will make "suggestions" that they need more help.

-Durant rejected 1 team's offer...if he becomes more disfrancised then he'll be open to more teams.

-More offers mean team's will have to beat the competition in order to acquire him.

-Lets say that NYK, Boston, Houston, OKC, Miami and SAS all don't win the title (I like Denver to win) do you think that there's a chance at least 2 of that list take a look at adding somone like Durant?

I do. What do you think Houston and OKC would do if they know the other one is trying to get him? Or Boston and NYK?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Keeping Book and KD might give us our best chance to contend. Like 1% instead of .1%, but I'd rather start looking at the further then looking at this "so you're telling me there's a chance?" at 1%. Though I think that's being generous.

So is what you're saying that you're on board with a full rebuild premise and not a soft, quick reload around Booker to try and squeeze our way into the 6-8 seed range if lucky, but more likely still a lottery team giving up our future to other teams like Houston and Washington. Which path should we actually pursue? two paths, One I offered wherein we get 90% of our picks back till 2030 and tank for the lottery to return us high-end cost-controlled talent? And hopefully, star lottery acquisitions to rebuild around?

OR just trading KD for the best player and depth pieces we could get and maybe also a pick or two if lucky. But if done correctly as my premised trades have shown, were could maybe be slightly more competitive, but still not near contention. Houston and Washington will likely cash in on our lottery picks as we fight for the 7th- 10th seed for the next 3-4 years until Booker gets too frustrated and finally leaves for much less as he is now around 31-32 years old. Personally, I'd rather trade BOTH, and do the trade to get ALL OF OUR PICKS BACK, and fully bottom out with lottery talent rebuilding our core!

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

In response to the 3 bolded points from your post above. What if there was a way to trade KD/ Booker while getting some young talent/ pieces and also get a few of our pick swaps back from Washington? On the trade board, in the " Suppose Phoenix blows it all up" thread. There was an interesting suggestion by X Man:
viewtopic.php?p=117208147#p117208147

In which a 4 team trade has us giving up KD (to San Antonio). And Booker to Houston. And we'd be getting back something like:

Houston- Booker for J Green/ Landale/Sheppard/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st/ PHX 29' 1st.

And for KD,

San Antonio- KD for Vassell/ Barnes or K Johnson/ Sochan/ SAS 25' 1st ( 10th pick) / ATL 25' 1st ( 15th pick).
*** The 10th pick and Sheppard ( from Rockets deal) rerouted to Washington for our 26' and 28' 1st swaps back and Holmes. This would give us a post trade package of:

J Green/ Vassell/ Barnes/ Sochan/ Landale/ Holmes/ and our picks:

- PHNX 25' 1st ( Houston).
- PHNX 26' 1st ( pick swap returned) Wash.
- PHNX 27' 1st ( Houston).
- PHNX 28' 1st ( pick swap returned) Wash.
- PHNX 29' 1st ( Houston).
- ATL 25' 1st ( 15th pick).
- CLE 25' 1st ( 29th pick).
- CLE 27' 1st.
- CLE 29' 1st.
DEN 25' 2nd ( 54th pick).
** We could then keep Landale and trade Allen/ O' neale/ Barnes/ Holmes for more players/ picks/ 1sts and/ or 2nds too.
( post trade) .........................................................
J Green / Vassell/ Dunn/ Barnes/ Richards.
Milicic/ Allen/ Sochan/ O'neale/ Landale.
Gillespie/ Martin/ Vassell/ Bol Bol/ Holmes.

We'd really only be missing our 2030 and 2031 1sts. And could target those years ( picks) in trades using the above mentioned players??

If we could successfully do this trade, maybe with some slight alterations ( *if needed) it seems like a pretty good outcome to me.

I don't think that roster goes anywhere or really has much for guys that will be that good in the future. Of course the picks would be nice but no way we take back marginal players like those.

Well, this is obviously more of a pick-based full rebuild package to allow us to completely bottom out for more high-end lottery talent due to getting our picks back. And it clearly makes sense because we'd need to hit on some high-end lottery talent to replace Bookers' and KDs role. So in this picks-oriented premise, we'd get all of our picks back until 2030, and having control of our picks would again allow us to fully bottom out and capitalize on the lottery to rebuild our roster similar to OKC, Houston, with plenty of young, exciting, athletic talent on cost-controlled dals and having financial flexibility. So "going nowhere" but having control of at least the next 5 years is obviously much better than being where we're at now still sucking and being completely irrelevant but with no picks, almost no young talent, and no future.

Also, we'll be able to trade/ aggregate players and attach some (NOT ALL) of our picks in a package for other high-end players. Basically, we could still trade any of Allen, O'neale, Landale, Holmes, and picks in a deal for a bigger-name player. that we could add to Beal, and when he expires, we'll have a $50 million expiring to trade for a big name or just let him come off the books to offer big contracts to star players/high-tier talents. For instance, one name that comes to mind that I've mentioned a lot is Michael Porter Jr! Denver is looking to get off of his money, Maybe something like Barnes/Martin/ Milicic/ 2 1sts for MPJr. That'd give Denver around 36 million in expiring contracts saving Denver upwards of $42 million while also giving them two 1sts to add for trades for depth pieces or to draft cost-controlled options.

Then we'd have a core of
J Green/ Allen/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
Morris/ O'neale/ Vassell/ Sochan/ Landale.
Larrea/ Brea/ Sochan/ Bol Bol/ Beringer.

Do you really think that a core of Green, Vassell, Dunn, and Porter Jr wouldn't be that good in the future? Keep in mind the key detail that we'll be bottoming out intentionally for top 5 lottery talent and that'll be wherein our star talent will come from.

I feel like I have to respond to your post pieces at a time since they are so long.

As far as the last part, no, when you compare them to any team's roster in the west, they wouldn't. AND, if we bottomed out in 25/26 it wouldn't matter, because Memphis still has the right to swap, even if we had Washington's swap back. So we likely end up with a pretty bad pick. Then we have our 27 first, which is fine.

In a nutshell, I do think our 27 and 29 are important, but I think getting back at least 1 high quality young guy you know has hit and can start in the future is in the package, and at least one other rotation young guy, along with a decent vet. (Like maybe Eason, Whitmore and FVV) or throw Green or Brooks in there. Possibly Jabari Smith instead of Eason.

Or Thompson and one first.

First option for KD might be Miami for Ware, and if that's a no go, because Bam and Herro are young and they feel they like the young frontcourt rotation, then we pivot to Minnesota, and if that fails, look at other options like Dallas, the LA teams and GS (this is all assuming Houston and OKC are off the table for KD, which I imagine they will be...though Houston, since they are loaded at PF, might feel ok trading for him because they'd keep a young PF for a future, so may trade our 27 first (and maybe our 25 one if it's not too high) and Jabari Smith + the big filler contract.

Now even though I'd rather trade Book (I'm certain Miami would want him, but don't think they have enough). I think they are likely committed to Herro, but Herro and Ware plus a pick or two might be a decent package. But they don't have many picks. I wonder if Book will want to go to LA, and demand a trade there in 26 if LeBron retires. Hopefully not, because I don't know that Reeves anda pick and whatever else they have is worth it. Not sure if Book would want to play with Luka anyway. Regardless, LA will go after a big name in 27, and if LeBron plays one more year, it could be 28 when Book is a FA.

The Clips probably go after Book too when he is a FA...well, tons of teams will if we haven't extended him unless he asks out before then.

But if we can get, say, Naz Reid, Randle, Dillingham and a first from Minny for KD, and hopefully a decent C for Allen and/or Royce, along with a decent PG (maybe Lonzo Ball?), we could see how they do, but if they don't do well, let Randle expire (unless he has value at the deadline) but letting him expire definitely probably gets us under both aprons with the cap going up again in the summer of 26. But re-sign Reid.

That gives us Book, Reid, Dunn, maybe one of Allen or Royce, unless we have traded both, one for a PG and one for a C, and whoever we get in this draft at 28 or wherever we pick. I would probably go for a PG or C unless the wings late in the first are great. The silver lining about picking late in the first is you still get the rights for 4 years at about the cheapest rookie scale contract, and then the ability to match in RFA, so you have cost control for 4 years, and if you hit big, maybe you pay more but that's fine because you hit, and if you just get a solid rotation player, you pay less.

Then 2026 summer we would have an incoming swap from Memphis or Orlando, unless Washington is really good, but at least another pick, maybe a bit better in the 20s, unless Memphis is atop the standings (they could be close...they'd have 3 starters hitting their prime and the other 2 in their 3rd years) along with a lot of depth.

Then we have the Randle expiring, giving us flexibility.

So we have

PG (from Allen/Royce trade) or keep one of them and maybe use MLE in 26)
Book/Beal (or if we don't get a PG we can go back to starting both...starting both worked last year...it was just when Tyus was added it didn't work anymore.
Dunn
Randle/Reid (or you go with Point Book, Dunn at SG, Reid and Randle at SF/PF since Reid can hit the 3 and is not a good rebounder and you still have Beal off the bench)
C from Allen/Royce trade or possibly both.

Then in 27 you have the big Beal expiring and now you have created cap space, have our own pick, and can really start to maneuver.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

I don't think that roster goes anywhere or really has much for guys that will be that good in the future. Of course the picks would be nice but no way we take back marginal players like those.

Well, this is obviously more of a pick-based full rebuild package to allow us to completely bottom out for more high-end lottery talent due to getting our picks back. And it clearly makes sense because we'd need to hit on some high-end lottery talent to replace Bookers' and KDs role. So in this picks-oriented premise, we'd get all of our picks back until 2030, and having control of our picks would again allow us to fully bottom out and capitalize on the lottery to rebuild our roster similar to OKC, Houston, with plenty of young, exciting, athletic talent on cost-controlled dals and having financial flexibility. So "going nowhere" but having control of at least the next 5 years is obviously much better than being where we're at now still sucking and being completely irrelevant but with no picks, almost no young talent, and no future.

Also, we'll be able to trade/ aggregate players and attach some (NOT ALL) of our picks in a package for other high-end players. Basically, we could still trade any of Allen, O'neale, Landale, Holmes, and picks in a deal for a bigger-name player. that we could add to Beal, and when he expires, we'll have a $50 million expiring to trade for a big name or just let him come off the books to offer big contracts to star players/high-tier talents. For instance, one name that comes to mind that I've mentioned a lot is Michael Porter Jr! Denver is looking to get off of his money, Maybe something like Barnes/Martin/ Milicic/ 2 1sts for MPJr. That'd give Denver around 36 million in expiring contracts saving Denver upwards of $42 million while also giving them two 1sts to add for trades for depth pieces or to draft cost-controlled options.

Then we'd have a core of
J Green/ Allen/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
Morris/ O'neale/ Vassell/ Sochan/ Landale.
Larrea/ Brea/ Sochan/ Bol Bol/ Beringer.

Do you really think that a core of Green, Vassell, Dunn, and Porter Jr wouldn't be that good in the future? Keep in mind the key detail that we'll be bottoming out intentionally for top 5 lottery talent and that'll be wherein our star talent will come from.

I feel like I have to respond to your post pieces at a time since they are so long.

As far as the last part, no, when you compare them to any team's roster in the west, they wouldn't. AND, if we bottomed out in 25/26 it wouldn't matter, because Memphis still has the right to swap, even if we had Washington's swap back. So we likely end up with a pretty bad pick. Then we have our 27 first, which is fine.

In a nutshell, I do think our 27 and 29 are important, but I think getting back at least 1 high quality young guy you know has hit and can start in the future is in the package, and at least one other rotation young guy, along with a decent vet. (Like maybe Eason, Whitmore and FVV) or throw Green or Brooks in there. Possibly Jabari Smith instead of Eason.

Or Thompson and one first.

First option for KD might be Miami for Ware, and if that's a no go, because Bam and Herro are young and they feel they like the young frontcourt rotation, then we pivot to Minnesota, and if that fails, look at other options like Dallas, the LA teams and GS (this is all assuming Houston and OKC are off the table for KD, which I imagine they will be...though Houston, since they are loaded at PF, might feel ok trading for him because they'd keep a young PF for a future, so may trade our 27 first (and maybe our 25 one if it's not too high) and Jabari Smith + the big filler contract.

Now even though I'd rather trade Book (I'm certain Miami would want him, but don't think they have enough). I think they are likely committed to Herro, but Herro and Ware plus a pick or two might be a decent package. But they don't have many picks. I wonder if Book will want to go to LA, and demand a trade there in 26 if LeBron retires. Hopefully not, because I don't know that Reeves anda pick and whatever else they have is worth it. Not sure if Book would want to play with Luka anyway. Regardless, LA will go after a big name in 27, and if LeBron plays one more year, it could be 28 when Book is a FA.

The Clips probably go after Book too when he is a FA...well, tons of teams will if we haven't extended him unless he asks out before then.

But if we can get, say, Naz Reid, Randle, Dillingham and a first from Minny for KD, and hopefully a decent C for Allen and/or Royce, along with a decent PG (maybe Lonzo Ball?), we could see how they do, but if they don't do well, let Randle expire (unless he has value at the deadline) but letting him expire definitely probably gets us under both aprons with the cap going up again in the summer of 26. But re-sign Reid.

That gives us Book, Reid, Dunn, maybe one of Allen or Royce, unless we have traded both, one for a PG and one for a C, and whoever we get in this draft at 28 or wherever we pick. I would probably go for a PG or C unless the wings late in the first are great. The silver lining about picking late in the first is you still get the rights for 4 years at about the cheapest rookie scale contract, and then the ability to match in RFA, so you have cost control for 4 years, and if you hit big, maybe you pay more but that's fine because you hit, and if you just get a solid rotation player, you pay less.

Then 2026 summer we would have an incoming swap from Memphis or Orlando, unless Washington is really good, but at least another pick, maybe a bit better in the 20s, unless Memphis is atop the standings (they could be close...they'd have 3 starters hitting their prime and the other 2 in their 3rd years) along with a lot of depth.

Then we have the Randle expiring, giving us flexibility.

So we have

PG (from Allen/Royce trade) or keep one of them and maybe use MLE in 26)
Book/Beal (or if we don't get a PG we can go back to starting both...starting both worked last year...it was just when Tyus was added it didn't work anymore.
Dunn
Randle/Reid (or you go with Point Book, Dunn at SG, Reid and Randle at SF/PF since Reid can hit the 3 and is not a good rebounder and you still have Beal off the bench)
C from Allen/Royce trade or possibly both.

Then in 27 you have the big Beal expiring and now you have created cap space, have our own pick, and can really start to maneuver.

You're right man! the posts are getting too long it seems. I'll respond to this post in thee box blow and do my very best to keep it concise................................Continued below

[Frank Lee]

Yall so infatuated with blowing this team up that you forget who is running the show.

[bwgood77]

Yall so infatuated with blowing this team up that you forget who is running the show.

Well we're trying to at least. We only have a few months to dream about the possibilities before we have to face reality.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I feel like I have to respond to your post pieces at a time since they are so long.

As far as the last part, no, when you compare them to any team's roster in the west, they wouldn't. AND, if we bottomed out in 25/26 it wouldn't matter, because Memphis still has the right to swap, even if we had Washington's swap back. So we likely end up with a pretty bad pick. Then we have our 27 first, which is fine.

I understand that the Washington 26' 1st (pick swap) is basically pointless, So then we'll just make it about the 2028 and 2030 1sts then. I'm more interested in us getting back our 25,27, and 29 firsts from Houston. Because by my estimation, w can mitigate the singular 26' 1st swap value simply enough by using the cap flexibility we'd have to sign quality free agents, AND in utilizing that 25' 1st in a trade-back scenario with another team (Brooklyn for example) to load up on even more solid cost-controlled talent around the pieces we'll be getting back in the Houston trade as well as the vet pieces we'd get back from a KD trade per some of the examples I've offered previously. IF approached correctly, we should be in a really good position to mitigate that 26' pick value. and I'm looking at the cumulative payoff over just the 26' 1st risk in this scenario. The long-term picture outweighing the singular concern for 26.

In a nutshell, I do think our 27 and 29 are important, but I think getting back at least 1 high quality young guy you know has hit and can start in the future is in the package, and at least one other rotation young guy, along with a decent vet. (Like maybe Eason, Whitmore and FVV) or throw Green or Brooks in there. Possibly Jabari Smith instead of Eason. Or Thompson and one first.

Well, the 27th and 29th picks could be exceptionally important due to the likelihood of Booker being gone prior to 28' if we haven't shown significant improvement trajectory, or obviously already gone in 29. This makes reloading up on talent even more critical if we have any intent to influence Booker to stay or even intend to improve in lieu of his impending departure. And of course, I'd love/expect to get back at least 1-2 quality young players in any Houston deal for Booker. But that outcome depends upon whether or not our front office can be remotely capable of strong negotiating tactics and maintaining a hardline stance on the appropriate value.

But ultimately, I'd still be fine with the alternative package of J Green (whom I value highly)/ Landale/ Sheppard/ Whitmore and our 25,27, 29 1sts back with Sheppard being rerouted in a package along with 2 firsts for our 28, and 30 1sts back from Washington leaving us to only worry about the 26' 1st swap outgoing for the reasons I've mentioned around mitigating that value. Lastly, I'd love Thompson, But I think we both understand that Amen would be untouchable for them. But if they'd do that, so would I. Back in reality though, I'd push for them to include Whitmore, But would settle on the package I mentioned (to get our Washington picks back) for JGreen/ Landale/ Sheppard/ Whitmore??/ our 3 1sts back. And then I'd us our 25' 1st to trade back to draft more talent per what I shared in the college draft thread ( 19/24/29/54 picks premise).

First option for KD might be Miami for Ware, and if that's a no-go because Bam and Herro are young and they feel they like the young frontcourt rotation, then we pivot to Minnesota, and if that fails, look at other options like Dallas, the LA teams and GS (this is all assuming Houston and OKC are off the table for KD, which I imagine they will be...though Houston since they are loaded at PF, might feel ok trading for him because they'd keep a young PF for a future, so may trade our 27 first (and maybe our 25 one if it's not too high) and Jabari Smith + the big filler contract.

I'd love the Miami package for KD as long as Ware was the centerpiece of the deal, but again, if not, then it'd be MANDATORY to the trade that the GS 25' 1st would then be included along with Jovic and either KJohnson or Larson in the deal to replenish missing value. And then I'd look to use that (14th pick) to trade back in the draft to acquire more picks and draft as much talent as available to us to again add to our core pieces from the Houston trade. Minnesota would be fine too as long as w can legally do the trade with BOTH Randle and Reid having POs. And as long as we would be getting that DET 25' 1st and the MIN 32' 1st back in the deal. Dallas wouldn't likely gut their team just to add KD at 37 years old, and honestly, Unless they were also including their 25' 1st AND 29' 1st, I'd not be interested.

But again, I really doubt they'd gut their roster to match the salaries necessary to make this trade happen. LA I'd do for the specific package I mentioned so they'd not only give up promising young talent but also key depth pieces AND their last available draft assets to severely hamstring them as we are now. GS doesn't have much anything to offer us unless offering Kuminga/TJD/ Moody/ 2 firsts. Unless it's that package, I'm not interested. OKC I'd try hard for, and I'd I could still be happy with a Smith Jr/ Big filler/ PHX 25 and PHX 27' or 29' 1st package back, but would push very hard for all three. ESPECIALLY our 25' lotto first. I'd also strongly look at the Bucks trade premises I suggested too.

Now even though I'd rather trade Book (I'm certain Miami would want him, but don't think they have enough). I think they are likely committed to Herro, but Herro and Ware plus a pick or two might be a decent package. But they don't have many picks. I wonder if Book will want to go to LA and demand a trade there in 26 if LeBron retires. Hopefully not, because I don't know that Reeves and pick and whatever else they have is worth it. Not sure if Book would want to play with Luka anyway. Regardless, LA will go after a big name in 27, and if LeBron plays one more year, it could be 28 when Book is an FA.

The Clips probably go after Book too when he is a FA...well, tons of teams will if we haven't extended him unless he asks out before then.

I wouldn't trade Book to Miami under any conditions unless getting a package of at least Herro/Ware/ Jovic/ 3 1sts/ fillers back in the deal. I don't see Booker wanting to go to LA at all just to be a 2nd fiddle to Doncic! And especially not after the way he taunted and embarrassed him in that game 7. I think Book prefers to have his own team or at least be considered the guy on that team, which is why he's stayed so long here for the title and recognition. He wouldn't like being in Lukas' shadow in LA. But I would be agreeable to the Reeves/Kneecht/ Rddish/ Finney Smith/ Hachimura/ picks package for KD as a last option consideration. I just don't think LA would get Book even as a free agent for the reasons I ( and you yourself) mentioned around Luka. The Clips maybe, but by then I wouldn't really care what the outcome with Booker would be if our future completely sucks anyways!

But if we can get, say, Naz Reid, Randle, Dillingham and a first from Minny for KD, and hopefully a decent C for Allen and/or Royce, along with a decent PG (maybe Lonzo Ball?), we could see how they do, but if they don't do well, let Randle expire (unless he has value at the deadline) but letting him expire definitely probably gets us under both aprons with the cap going up again in the summer of 26. But re-sign Reid.

I'd love that Minnesota package (as long as the DET 25' 1st and MIN 32' 1st were included, without it, I probably wouldn't do the deal!) because Randle would give us a massive $30 million expiring, Reeid would give us a top-notch backup 4/5 small ball center. And Dillingham could be mentored by Bal as an eventual replacement, or used as a high-value (recent lottery) trade asset. I'd probably look to flip the Dillingham/29th picks to San Antonio for the 15th pick and 40th picks, and Orlando for the 16th and 24th picks. And then draft Fleming with the teen pick, and Beringer with the 20s' pick. Beringer is a younger but very similar center talent to Kel'el Ware or Yves Missi. And we could also outright sign a free agent vet center like Capela or Adams or trade for a Vucvic due to being out from under the 2nd apron, and be able to aggregate salaries. We could also trade aggregated salaries like Landale (post-Booker trade)Martin/ Micic/ CLE 1st for Ball too. Randlees' expiring along with waiving/buying out Martin/Milicic this summer should put us well under the 2nd apron for next season. And yes, of course, resign Reid!

That gives us Book, Reid, Dunn, maybe one of Allen or Royce, unless we have traded both, one for a PG and one for a C, and whoever we get in this draft at 28 or wherever we pick. I would probably go for a PG or C unless the wings late in the first are great. The silver lining about picking late in the first is you still get the rights for 4 years at about the cheapest rookie scale contract, and then the ability to match in RFA, so you have cost control for 4 years, and if you hit big, maybe you pay more but that's fine because you hit, and if you just get a solid rotation player, you pay less.

So in this premise above we're keeping Book and only trading KD to Minnesota? And doing a quick reset while conceding our picks to other teams right? Are we getting the DET 25' 1ST and the MIN 32' 1st back in this deal too? So if keeping Book and not getting any of our picks back, what exactly is our goal long-term/short-term? Are we expecting to really be much better? Are we expecting to at least become a middle-of-the-pack playoff team to at least somewhat mitigate outgoing picks to the other teams? Our starting lineup would be Booker/Allen/Dunn/ ???/ Richards. And then a 2nd rotation bench lineup of Milicic/Beal/Martin/O'neale/Reid? 3rd rotation of maybe Gillespie/ D Lee/ Martin/Bol/Ighodaro ?? Is any of that honestly really any better than a struggling lottery team or at best a fringe play-in team the same as we are now? Lastly, If only trading KD and trying to keep Booker, then does it really help us to get an end-of-the-first pick while other teams (Houston and Washington) are still cashing in on lottery talent at our expense??


If our result is a fringe playoff/play-in team, and we're still giving up lottery picks to other teams for the next 4-5 years minimum while not legitimately contending with Booker anyways while his value only further depreciates, then what was the point to this strategy? Just getting some good low-cost solid rotation players if lucky?? Is that really a big-picture win for our future? For my part, I'd much rather trade BOTH get our picks from Houston back and swaps from Washington back, and rebuild correctly around the young promising core pieces/vets/ Lottery talent we'd get back from the KD AND Booker trades AND our 25, 27, 28, 29 and 30 1sts back, along with the cap space we'd also have to sign more free agents with and also being able to aggregate salaries in trades too. To me at least, that seems like a much more logical and fortuitous outcome than trying to keep Booker, only trade KD, and continue fighting for a play in seeding while giving up lottery talent to other teams. And then Booker leaves anyways out of frustration while returning far less value in trade.

Then 2026 summer we would have an incoming swap from Memphis or Orlando, unless Washington is really good, but at least another pick, maybe a bit better in the 20s, unless Memphis is atop the standings (they could be close...they'd have 3 starters hitting their prime and the other 2 in their 3rd years) along with a lot of depth.

Then we have the Randle expiring, giving us flexibility.

So we have

PG (from Allen/Royce trade) or keep one of them and maybe use MLE in 26)

What point guard though considering their salaries? Are we aggregating them in a trade? and for who?Also who replaces their outgoing depth then at their positions? It feels like we're just filling one hole while creating another here.

Book/Beal (or if we don't get a PG we can go back to starting both...starting both worked last year...it was just when Tyus was added it didn't work anymore.

If trying to truly be more competitive, did starting Beal alongside of Booker really work last year? Who fills in for the stretches of games he'll customarily miss? Who'll fill in as our super 6th man to keep our bench scoring potent? What are we giving up in making these adjustments by taking one position to fill another though?

Dunn
Randle/Reid (or you go with Point Book, Dunn at SG, Reid and Randle at SF/PF since Reid can hit the 3 and is not a good rebounder and you still have Beal off the bench)
C from Allen/Royce trade or possibly both.

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying in this premise above man. So are we keeping Randlee and letting him expire for cap space? are we going to try and resign him to a chapter deal? are w trading him for something else? So in the above, you're suggesting a starting lineup of Booker/ Dunn/ Reid/Randle/Richards? That's definitely interesting, But then why not just start (1st rotation) Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Randle/ Richards. (2nd rotation) Beal/ Allen/ O'neale/ Ighodaro/ Reid. (3rd rotation)- Milicic/Dillingham/ Martin/ Bol/ Ighodaro. AND THEN use the DET 25' 1st (17th pick) to draft Fleming, and our 29th pick to draft Beringer or Grunloh at center? making our 3rd rotation become Milicic/ Dillingham/ Martin/ Flemming/ Beringer? Maybe even look to trade Dillingham/ 17th pick/ 29th pick to Brooklyn for the 19th, 24th, and 27th picks!

Then we could draft Fleming at 19, Larrea at 24, and Carter Beringer at 27? by doing this, we'll have filled our backup PF, backup PG, and backup center positions with high-end talent. Then next season, around the deadline, we could flip (aggregated salaries) a package of Randle/ Martin/ CLE 29' 1st for Porter Jr? And field a starting lineup of Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards. Bench of Larrea/ Allen/ O'neale/ Fleming/ Reid. And a 3rd rotation of Milicic/ Brea/ Dunn/Bol/ Ighodaro with Beringer in the G league developing his shooting and strength! And if you need more cap flexibility, you can still trade Alleen and/or O'neale for cheaper options and more draft assets?

Then in 27 you have the big Beal expiring and now you have created cap space, have our own pick, and can really start to maneuver.

The idea of course setting ourselves up as soon as possible to be more competitive, but more importantly not continually hemorrhage lottery value for the privilege of fighting for a play in seeding and still being irrelevant. Although not our best logical pathway by far, IF keeping Booker and trying to do a soft reload, then we'd be best served to trade KD to one of my top 3 options of 1- Denver, 2- Minnesota, or 3- Milwaukee. Unless Ware would be available in a KD /Heat trade package, then Miami climbs to the top spot making 4 total options. Really hard to stay competitive even with Booker and just trading KD. Unless someone gives up a ridiculous haul for him?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Yall so infatuated with blowing this team up that you forget who is running the show.

I've not forgotten man! This is why I've also suggested trading KD in packages that return more players/ vets/ depth pieces than a picks-based package. Because if trading KD but not Booker, We'll need to try and replace that scoring output while also filling out depth at various positions maybe even getting some intriguing young assets that we could trade elsewhere for better fitting pieces that'd address more positional needs.

And of course, having said all this, Ishbia will most likely go full moronic azz clown and just go hard at extending KD as we futilely crawl into dark pits of oblivion with him doing a line of coke and then giving his routine manic press conference spin job about how 29 other teams would love to be completely collapsing into irrelevancy like us. And then the last 5-6 fans left in the entire fanbase will pathetically tune out completely.

[bwgood77]

Dang that is a long response. I don't really see Dallas doing it either, however, they can get about $1 million off by doing Gafford, PJ, Klay and Caleb Martin. Obviously I'd want Lively, Naji or Christie, but those might be deal breakers if we are getting two picks, and the money doesn't really work. Marshall does make $500K more than Martin, but still not enough to get all the way to KD's salary.

I'm sure they could somehow make it work.

Dallas would still look pretty good though, even after trading those first 4 guys with a remaining roster of:

Kyrie
Naji Marshall/Max Christie
KD
AD
Lively

Then maybe keep like Dinwiddie, Powell, etc. Then if someone got injured they could always start Naji, Max at 2/3 and rearrange the bigs or start the guys at guard if Kyrie was out.

[Ghost of Kleine]

In a more concise ( as promised) response to BWgoods' Keep Book/ quick reload by trading KD premise:

In keeping Booker and trying to remain competitive from whatever we get just trading KD and then making moves around the margins, which I can empathize with but would wholeheartedly do not endorse, as we'd still be hemorrhaging lottery value (picks) to teams like Houston and Washington) while not really becoming much better over the next couple of years anyways. But let's explore this premise a bit more to see if we can put frosting on a turd and call it a cupcake...LOL

KD to Minnesota (Quick reload premise)

Minnesota- KD.

Phoenix- Randle/ Reid/ Dillingham/ DET 25' 1ST (17TH PICK)/ MIN 32' 1st (similar value to our 31' 1st we gave up to Utah).

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Randle/ Richards.
Beal/ Allen/ O'neale/ Ighodaro/ Reid.
Milicic/ Dillingham/ Martin/ Bol/ Ighodaro.

What can we do with Randle and Dillingham?
Randle represents a massive $30 million expiring we can just let run out for more cap flexibility OR we can look to trade him for another key veet player, etc. Plus we should be able to aggregate salaries once the cap increases and if any trade we do doesn't put us back over the 2nd apron. So I'd look at doing this (if trying to become more competitive now!! So we'll consider these trades this summer. Upon acquiring Randle/Reid/Dillingham jr/ DET 25' 1st (17th pick)/ MIN 32' 1st. We trade (draft night)
1- Dillingham Jr (lottery pick value- 8th pick)/ DET 25' 1st/ CLE 29' 1st to Brooklyn for the 19th, 24th, 27th picks. So we can now draft:
19- Rasheer Fleming PF ( 6'9 240 lbs 3+D 4/5).
24- Sergio de Larrea PG (6'6 218 lbs).
27- Carter Bryant SF/PF (6'8 220 lbs)
54- Kobe Brea SG ( 6'7 215 lb)
Undrafted Ranges ( G-League)
1- Zvonimr Ivisic. 7'2 PF/C
2- Vladislav Goldin 7'1 3+D center

2- Trade Randle/ Martin/ CLE 27' 1st/ CLE 29' 1st for Michael Porter Jr.
3- O'neale to Toronto for the Portland 25' 2nd ( 39th pick) or to Golden State for the MIA 2nd (40th pick). That will save us close to $10 million. Then we use the 39th or 40th pick on Myles Byrd (to replace O'neale). **** Buy out Milicic, and trade Allen to Orlando for Bidatze. Now our roster for next season becomes: (shaves $21 million off our cap totals!)

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
Morris/Trent Jr/ Bryant/ Reid/ Bidatze.
Larrea/ Brea/ Byrd/ Fleming/ Ighodaro.

In trading O'neale for a 2nd, moving Allen for Bidatze, And waiving/ buying out Milicic, we've now effectively cut around $21 million from our cap line while upgrading various positions, getting much younger and more athletic, and adding significant size to our roster. Our roster is also flush with athletic 3&D wings, forwards, and 4/5s. We'll be out from under the 2nd apron and very possibly the first apron too, and will be able to make a wide range of moves as needed. So we can add vets and do key trades as needed.

[Frank Lee]

Ghost is word bombing again…

Relapse

[lilfishi22]

In a more concise ( as promised) response to BWgoods' Keep Book/ quick reload by trading KD premise:

In keeping Booker and trying to remain competitive from whatever we get just trading KD and then making moves around the margins, which I can empathize with but would wholeheartedly do not endorse, as we'd still be hemorrhaging lottery value (picks) to teams like Houston and Washington) while not really becoming much better over the next couple of years anyways. But let's explore this premise a bit more to see if we can put frosting on a turd and call it a cupcake...LOL

KD to Minnesota (Quick reload premise)

Minnesota- KD.

Phoenix- Randle/ Reid/ Dillingham/ DET 25' 1ST (17TH PICK)/ MIN 32' 1st (similar value to our 31' 1st we gave up to Utah).

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Randle/ Richards.
Beal/ Allen/ O'neale/ Ighodaro/ Reid.
Milicic/ Dillingham/ Martin/ Bol/ Ighodaro.

What can we do with Randle and Dillingham?
Randle represents a massive $30 million expiring we can just let run out for more cap flexibility OR we can look to trade him for another key veet player, etc. Plus we should be able to aggregate salaries once the cap increases and if any trade we do doesn't put us back over the 2nd apron. So I'd look at doing this (if trying to become more competitive now!! So we'll consider these trades this summer. Upon acquiring Randle/Reid/Dillingham jr/ DET 25' 1st (17th pick)/ MIN 32' 1st. We trade (draft night)
1- Dillingham Jr (lottery pick value- 8th pick)/ DET 25' 1st/ CLE 29' 1st to Brooklyn for the 19th, 24th, 27th picks. So we can now draft:
19- Rasheer Fleming PF ( 6'9 240 lbs 3+D 4/5).
24- Sergio de Larrea PG (6'6 218 lbs).
27- Carter Bryant SF/PF (6'8 220 lbs)
54- Kobe Brea SG ( 6'7 215 lb)
Undrafted Ranges ( G-League)
1- Zvonimr Ivisic. 7'2 PF/C
2- Vladislav Goldin 7'1 3+D center

2- Trade Randle/ Martin/ CLE 27' 1st/ CLE 29' 1st for Michael Porter Jr.
3- O'neale to Toronto for the Portland 25' 2nd ( 39th pick) or to Golden State for the MIA 2nd (40th pick). That will save us close to $10 million. Then we use the 39th or 40th pick on Myles Byrd (to replace O'neale). **** Buy out Milicic, and trade Allen to Orlando for Bidatze. Now our roster for next season becomes: (shaves $21 million off our cap totals!)

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
Morris/Trent Jr/ Bryant/ Reid/ Bidatze.
Larrea/ Brea/ Byrd/ Fleming/ Ighodaro.

In trading O'neale for a 2nd, moving Allen for Bidatze, And waiving/ buying out Milicic, we've now effectively cut around $21 million from our cap line while upgrading various positions, getting much younger and more athletic, and adding significant size to our roster. Our roster is also flush with athletic 3&D wings, forwards, and 4/5s. We'll be out from under the 2nd apron and very possibly the first apron too, and will be able to make a wide range of moves as needed. So we can add vets and do key trades as needed.

Mentioned before, dealing with Minny is next to impossible because they are also over the 2nd apron which mean, they also cannot aggregate players.

Randle and Reid both having player options complicate things even further. Reid will probably get extended and I'm not sure what's going to happen with Randle

[Ghost of Kleine]

Dang that is a long response. I don't really see Dallas doing it either, however, they can get about $1 million off by doing Gafford, PJ, Klay and Caleb Martin. Obviously I'd want Lively, Naji or Christie, but those might be deal breakers if we are getting two picks, and the money doesn't really work. Marshall does make $500K more than Martin, but still not enough to get all the way to KD's salary.

I'm sure they could somehow make it work.

Dallas would still look pretty good though, even after trading those first 4 guys with a remaining roster of:

Kyrie
Naji Marshall/Max Christie
KD
AD
Lively

Then maybe keep like Dinwiddie, Powell, etc. Then if someone got injured they could always start Naji, Max at 2/3 and rearrange the bigs or start the guys at guard if Kyrie was out.

Yeah! Their starting lineup would be impressive but it's their depth that I'd again think would prevent them from really doing this. And it becomes all the more terrifying doing risk assessment around KDs' and Davis' injury/ durability concerns for the money they'd tie up. If either of those two went down, there season might be over before it begins. If there were a three-team trade that could get them more depth and us some more cost-effective pieces and picks, that'd be kind of optimal.

But I can't yet think off the top of my head what team that could be?

[Ghost of Kleine]

In a more concise ( as promised) response to BWgoods' Keep Book/ quick reload by trading KD premise:

In keeping Booker and trying to remain competitive from whatever we get just trading KD and then making moves around the margins, which I can empathize with but would wholeheartedly do not endorse, as we'd still be hemorrhaging lottery value (picks) to teams like Houston and Washington) while not really becoming much better over the next couple of years anyways. But let's explore this premise a bit more to see if we can put frosting on a turd and call it a cupcake...LOL

KD to Minnesota (Quick reload premise)

Minnesota- KD.

Phoenix- Randle/ Reid/ Dillingham/ DET 25' 1ST (17TH PICK)/ MIN 32' 1st (similar value to our 31' 1st we gave up to Utah).

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Randle/ Richards.
Beal/ Allen/ O'neale/ Ighodaro/ Reid.
Milicic/ Dillingham/ Martin/ Bol/ Ighodaro.

What can we do with Randle and Dillingham?
Randle represents a massive $30 million expiring we can just let run out for more cap flexibility OR we can look to trade him for another key veet player, etc. Plus we should be able to aggregate salaries once the cap increases and if any trade we do doesn't put us back over the 2nd apron. So I'd look at doing this (if trying to become more competitive now!! So we'll consider these trades this summer. Upon acquiring Randle/Reid/Dillingham jr/ DET 25' 1st (17th pick)/ MIN 32' 1st. We trade (draft night)
1- Dillingham Jr (lottery pick value- 8th pick)/ DET 25' 1st/ CLE 29' 1st to Brooklyn for the 19th, 24th, 27th picks. So we can now draft:
19- Rasheer Fleming PF ( 6'9 240 lbs 3+D 4/5).
24- Sergio de Larrea PG (6'6 218 lbs).
27- Carter Bryant SF/PF (6'8 220 lbs)
54- Kobe Brea SG ( 6'7 215 lb)
Undrafted Ranges ( G-League)
1- Zvonimr Ivisic. 7'2 PF/C
2- Vladislav Goldin 7'1 3+D center

2- Trade Randle/ Martin/ CLE 27' 1st/ CLE 29' 1st for Michael Porter Jr.
3- O'neale to Toronto for the Portland 25' 2nd ( 39th pick) or to Golden State for the MIA 2nd (40th pick). That will save us close to $10 million. Then we use the 39th or 40th pick on Myles Byrd (to replace O'neale). **** Buy out Milicic, and trade Allen to Orlando for Bidatze. Now our roster for next season becomes: (shaves $21 million off our cap totals!)

Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Porter Jr/ Richards.
Morris/Trent Jr/ Bryant/ Reid/ Bidatze.
Larrea/ Brea/ Byrd/ Fleming/ Ighodaro.

In trading O'neale for a 2nd, moving Allen for Bidatze, And waiving/ buying out Milicic, we've now effectively cut around $21 million from our cap line while upgrading various positions, getting much younger and more athletic, and adding significant size to our roster. Our roster is also flush with athletic 3&D wings, forwards, and 4/5s. We'll be out from under the 2nd apron and very possibly the first apron too, and will be able to make a wide range of moves as needed. So we can add vets and do key trades as needed.

Mentioned before, dealing with Minny is next to impossible because they are also over the 2nd apron which mean, they also cannot aggregate players.

Randle and Reid both having player options complicate things even further. Reid will probably get extended and I'm not sure what's going to happen with Randle

For sure you're right man! Everything is difficult bring in the 2nd apron man. They'd have to cut maybe $ 17 million over the 2nd apron, and could really to do the KD trade, but they'd need to salary dump Conley and DiVincenzo or buyout Conley and then trade DiVincenzo for a future pick. Then they'd be like 4 million under and the Randle trade that I suggested would be almost "dollar for dollar" match. definitely difficult, but not at all impossible. I could see a number of teams willing to take DiVincenzo into space. Really any of Golden State, Toronto, San Antonio, or maybe Orlando? Regardless, if KD is available and willing to go to Minnesota to play with Edwards, then I can't see Conley or even DiVincenzo holding up a trade. Especially not considering the infatuation Edwards has with KD and the mutual interest shared between both players too.

Or really, If they wanted to get far enough under the 2nd apron to still do the trade and keep DiVincenzo, they could alternatively just choose to buyout Conley and Shannon Jr, then just decline Garzas' and Minotts' team options and be far enough under the 2nd apron to be able to do the KD trade and still keep DiVincenzo. Although they may not want to keep their 25' picks because those would add a few million back again and put them over the 2nd apron yet again. Much the same reason they'd have to trade Randle and Reid together as both have increases next season.