RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[michaelm]

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog.

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the New York Knicks


People trying to dismiss the 91-93 teams as if having grandpa Cartwright at center wasn't a sever disadvantage are kidding themselves. He has to be one of the worst rebounding centers of all time and that was a time when having a strong center was paramount.

The 93 Phoenix team were also known to have significantly more fire power. But his 41 PPG and crazy clutch plays overcame that quite handily.

The Jordan perception and reality was completely different than what those here pretend it was. Jordan carried
the offense so many times.

Watch on YouTube

Jesus Christ... Imagine being a self proclaimed Jordan fanatic and not knowing that the Pistons beat him and the Bulls in the 1989 playoffs... Jordan losing to the bad boys in 1989 and 1990 is known by anybody with a shred of MJ knowledge... Not knowing that is really astonishing. The Bulls also didn't play the Knicks in the 95 playoffs, as iwaswitness said when he laid the proverbial smackdown on you.

This is why people struggle to take you seriously. Just constant false information and lies from you. I still can't believe you thought the Bulls beat the Pistons in 1989.

Good job on slightly modifying what he said to make it an sig. It's safe to say that his credibility at this point is shot and that nothing he says can be taken seriously.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sure you are a dispassionate fan of the sport who has been reluctantly convinced by overwhelming evidence that LeBron is clearly superior. As I said such evidence doesn’t exist and can’t exist for either player given the different eras with several different rules for a start.

Being a LeBron fan is fine, he has given his fans every reason to be fans, but a LeBron fan you are with the bias that brings the same as pretty much everyone on a fan sports forum.

[Iwasawitness]

Jesus Christ... Imagine being a self proclaimed Jordan fanatic and not knowing that the Pistons beat him and the Bulls in the 1989 playoffs... Jordan losing to the bad boys in 1989 and 1990 is known by anybody with a shred of MJ knowledge... Not knowing that is really astonishing. The Bulls also didn't play the Knicks in the 95 playoffs, as iwaswitness said when he laid the proverbial smackdown on you.

This is why people struggle to take you seriously. Just constant false information and lies from you. I still can't believe you thought the Bulls beat the Pistons in 1989.

Good job on slightly modifying what he said to make it an sig. It's safe to say that his credibility at this point is shot and that nothing he says can be taken seriously.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sure you are a dispassionate fan of the sport who has been reluctantly convinced by overwhelming evidence that LeBron is clearly superior. As I said such evidence doesn’t exist and can’t exist for either player given the different eras with several different rules for a start.

Being a LeBron fan is fine, he has given his fans every reason to be fans, but a LeBron fan you are with the bias that brings the same as pretty much everyone on a fan sports forum.

Okay? Again, at least I’m not resorting to making stuff up just to push my agenda. Case and point… bledredwine ladies and gentlemen.

[michaelm]

Good job on slightly modifying what he said to make it an sig. It's safe to say that his credibility at this point is shot and that nothing he says can be taken seriously.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sure you are a dispassionate fan of the sport who has been reluctantly convinced by overwhelming evidence that LeBron is clearly superior. As I said such evidence doesn’t exist and can’t exist for either player given the different eras with several different rules for a start.

Being a LeBron fan is fine, he has given his fans every reason to be fans, but a LeBron fan you are with the bias that brings the same as pretty much everyone on a fan sports forum.

Okay? Again, at least I’m not resorting to making stuff up just to push my agenda. Case in point… bledredwine ladies and gentlemen.

In reply to your earlier post what was a discussion over several pages about which teams were favoured about other than to draw implications as to which teams were stronger ?.

And I am triggered by the only other people are biased thing which you exhibit, and am aware of the modus operandi of posters of your ilk, which is to make ambit claims yourself, present selective “evidence” as definitive which it almost never is, then wait for errors in responses which you can jump on as if this disproves an entire argument, although bledred appears to have given you considerable ammunition on this occasion. You also have seem to have formed a mutual admiration society with Scranton Bulls, who is at least as agenda driven as bledred or any other poster on here.

We have a fundamental dichotomy as I have said before, you are a fan of an individual player in a team sport, I am a fan of a team and of team play in a team sport. Michael Jordan has never actually been my favourite player, but his teams being better. if they were, is in his favour for me.

[Iwasawitness]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sure you are a dispassionate fan of the sport who has been reluctantly convinced by overwhelming evidence that LeBron is clearly superior. As I said such evidence doesn’t exist and can’t exist for either player given the different eras with several different rules for a start.

Being a LeBron fan is fine, he has given his fans every reason to be fans, but a LeBron fan you are with the bias that brings the same as pretty much everyone on a fan sports forum.

Okay? Again, at least I’m not resorting to making stuff up just to push my agenda. Case in point… bledredwine ladies and gentlemen.

In reply to your earlier post what was a discussion over several pages about which teams were favoured about other than to draw implications as to which teams were stronger ?.

And I am triggered by the only other people are biased thing which you exhibit, and am aware of the modus operandi of posters of your ilk, which is to make ambit claims yourself, present selective “evidence” as definitive which it almost never is, then wait for errors in responses which you can jump on as if this disproves an entire argument, although bledred appears to have given you considerable ammunition on this occasion. You also have seem to have formed a mutual admiration society with Scranton Bulls, who is at least as agenda driven as bledred or any other poster on here.

We have a fundamental dichotomy as I have said before, you are a fan of an individual player in a team sport, I am a fan of a team and of team play in a team sport. Michael Jordan has never actually been my favourite player, but his teams being better. if they were, is in his favour for me.

Bias, in of itself, isn’t my issue with posters like bled. It’s resorting to outright bs claims to try to prove an agenda. You can claim I have one but the fact of the matter is, you haven’t been able to muster up a proper argument that demonstrates such. And what’s more is that you have, on multiple occasions now, resorted to putting words in my mouth, putting your theory into question. Yes, I am going to continue to call out bled for having a hate boner for LeBron who likes to wildly make **** up on the fly and hope people are gullible enough to fall for it. In this case, he took it too far and is rightfully getting called out for it.

It doesn’t matter to me if that offends you or not. I’m going to continue to do it when people act this way.

[ScrantonBulls]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sure you are a dispassionate fan of the sport who has been reluctantly convinced by overwhelming evidence that LeBron is clearly superior. As I said such evidence doesn’t exist and can’t exist for either player given the different eras with several different rules for a start.

Being a LeBron fan is fine, he has given his fans every reason to be fans, but a LeBron fan you are with the bias that brings the same as pretty much everyone on a fan sports forum.

Okay? Again, at least I’m not resorting to making stuff up just to push my agenda. Case in point… bledredwine ladies and gentlemen.

In reply to your earlier post what was a discussion over several pages about which teams were favoured about other than to draw implications as to which teams were stronger ?.

And I am triggered by the only other people are biased thing which you exhibit, and am aware of the modus operandi of posters of your ilk, which is to make ambit claims yourself, present selective “evidence” as definitive which it almost never is, then wait for errors in responses which you can jump on as if this disproves an entire argument, although bledred appears to have given you considerable ammunition on this occasion. You also have seem to have formed a mutual admiration society with Scranton Bulls, who is at least as agenda driven as bledred or any other poster on here.

We have a fundamental dichotomy as I have said before, you are a fan of an individual player in a team sport, I am a fan of a team and of team play in a team sport. Michael Jordan has never actually been my favourite player, but his teams being better. if they were, is in his favour for me.

"on this occasion". No, lmao. He's constantly straight up lying or wildly incorrect about things. Let's just look at this post from page 12 of this thread. Below is the link to it, and also below is his quote.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&start=220#p116808781

But he is. And nothing in this thread has really shown otherwise. Look at the poll… and that’s despite the PC crew heading over and Lebron being an active player.
No one has said “the next Lebron”
6 championships, 10 scoring titles (record), 9 times first team defense (record), first in winshares, vorp per 48, PER, ppg, box plus minus, all in regular season and playoffs. Jordan has 19 of the top 100 gamescores of all time singlehandedly and 7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages ever himself; all hyper efficient by the way. Only four times has a player won regular season MVP, finals MVP, the scoring title and was first team defense.. all Jordan.

Never choked in a finals or put his team in a position to lose, never let his finals matchup win FMVP (let alone four times), held teammates accountable so they didn’t make dumb defensive mistakes and were battle ready, didn’t bandwagon teams to chase championships “not 6 not 7 not 8” didn’t let a player outscore him in career head to head (as durant has against lebron)

Thats as close to unanimous GOAT as you’re going to get. Its such a bad comparison, just like Kobe was. And just as I said with Kobe, you wait you’ll see just how quickly after lebron retires it’ll move on to the next player being compared to Jordan. Not Lebron… but Jordan as the GOAT. Lebron comparisons would simply feel fake and fabricated, as they are. Jordan has 80+ % of bases covered in this one, and that’s game set match.

And of course we are lucky enough that there are several players who played both and every single one says it’s Jordan “by far” “no question” etc. Yeah, that’s unanimous.

Let's see how many things he lied about or was flat out wrong about.

1. MJ is 5th in winshares, not first. He is below Kareem, LeBron Wilt and Malone.
2. VORP per 48? He's just making up stats now
3. Jokic is #1 in PER, not MJ.
4. Jokic is #1 in BPM, not MJ.
5. LeBron is #1 in playoff win shares by far.

He lied about 4 things and then created his own stat I know you say I have an agenda. But I'm not frequently just COMPLETELY wrong or straight up lying like he is. He needs to defend Jordan so much that he creates pure fiction. It's wild.

[bledredwine]

Okay? Again, at least I’m not resorting to making stuff up just to push my agenda. Case in point… bledredwine ladies and gentlemen.

In reply to your earlier post what was a discussion over several pages about which teams were favoured about other than to draw implications as to which teams were stronger ?.

And I am triggered by the only other people are biased thing which you exhibit, and am aware of the modus operandi of posters of your ilk, which is to make ambit claims yourself, present selective “evidence” as definitive which it almost never is, then wait for errors in responses which you can jump on as if this disproves an entire argument, although bledred appears to have given you considerable ammunition on this occasion. You also have seem to have formed a mutual admiration society with Scranton Bulls, who is at least as agenda driven as bledred or any other poster on here.

We have a fundamental dichotomy as I have said before, you are a fan of an individual player in a team sport, I am a fan of a team and of team play in a team sport. Michael Jordan has never actually been my favourite player, but his teams being better. if they were, is in his favour for me.

"on this occasion". No, lmao. He's constantly straight up lying or wildly incorrect about things. Let's just look at this post from page 12 of this thread. Below is the link to it, and also below is his quote.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&start=220#p116808781

But he is. And nothing in this thread has really shown otherwise. Look at the poll… and that’s despite the PC crew heading over and Lebron being an active player.
No one has said “the next Lebron”
6 championships, 10 scoring titles (record), 9 times first team defense (record), first in winshares, vorp per 48, PER, ppg, box plus minus, all in regular season and playoffs. Jordan has 19 of the top 100 gamescores of all time singlehandedly and 7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages ever himself; all hyper efficient by the way. Only four times has a player won regular season MVP, finals MVP, the scoring title and was first team defense.. all Jordan.

Never choked in a finals or put his team in a position to lose, never let his finals matchup win FMVP (let alone four times), held teammates accountable so they didn’t make dumb defensive mistakes and were battle ready, didn’t bandwagon teams to chase championships “not 6 not 7 not 8” didn’t let a player outscore him in career head to head (as durant has against lebron)

Thats as close to unanimous GOAT as you’re going to get. Its such a bad comparison, just like Kobe was. And just as I said with Kobe, you wait you’ll see just how quickly after lebron retires it’ll move on to the next player being compared to Jordan. Not Lebron… but Jordan as the GOAT. Lebron comparisons would simply feel fake and fabricated, as they are. Jordan has 80+ % of bases covered in this one, and that’s game set match.

And of course we are lucky enough that there are several players who played both and every single one says it’s Jordan “by far” “no question” etc. Yeah, that’s unanimous.

Let's see how many things he lied about or was flat out wrong about.

1. MJ is 5th in winshares, not first. He is below Kareem, LeBron Wilt and Malone.
2. VORP per 48? He's just making up stats now
3. Jokic is #1 in PER, not MJ.
4. Jokic is #1 in BPM, not MJ.
5. LeBron is #1 in playoff win shares by far.

He lied about 4 things and then created his own stat I know you say I have an agenda. But I'm not frequently just COMPLETELY wrong or straight up lying like he is. He needs to defend Jordan so much that he creates pure fiction. It's wild.

Look at you, trying to use cumulative stats again

Jordan handily leads lebron in winshares per 48 and vorp per 48.

Once again, you have to fall back on cumulative stats and excuses, all decorated in trashy language as a defense mechanism.

[Iwasawitness]

In reply to your earlier post what was a discussion over several pages about which teams were favoured about other than to draw implications as to which teams were stronger ?.

And I am triggered by the only other people are biased thing which you exhibit, and am aware of the modus operandi of posters of your ilk, which is to make ambit claims yourself, present selective “evidence” as definitive which it almost never is, then wait for errors in responses which you can jump on as if this disproves an entire argument, although bledred appears to have given you considerable ammunition on this occasion. You also have seem to have formed a mutual admiration society with Scranton Bulls, who is at least as agenda driven as bledred or any other poster on here.

We have a fundamental dichotomy as I have said before, you are a fan of an individual player in a team sport, I am a fan of a team and of team play in a team sport. Michael Jordan has never actually been my favourite player, but his teams being better. if they were, is in his favour for me.

"on this occasion". No, lmao. He's constantly straight up lying or wildly incorrect about things. Let's just look at this post from page 12 of this thread. Below is the link to it, and also below is his quote.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&start=220#p116808781

But he is. And nothing in this thread has really shown otherwise. Look at the poll… and that’s despite the PC crew heading over and Lebron being an active player.
No one has said “the next Lebron”
6 championships, 10 scoring titles (record), 9 times first team defense (record), first in winshares, vorp per 48, PER, ppg, box plus minus, all in regular season and playoffs. Jordan has 19 of the top 100 gamescores of all time singlehandedly and 7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages ever himself; all hyper efficient by the way. Only four times has a player won regular season MVP, finals MVP, the scoring title and was first team defense.. all Jordan.

Never choked in a finals or put his team in a position to lose, never let his finals matchup win FMVP (let alone four times), held teammates accountable so they didn’t make dumb defensive mistakes and were battle ready, didn’t bandwagon teams to chase championships “not 6 not 7 not 8” didn’t let a player outscore him in career head to head (as durant has against lebron)

Thats as close to unanimous GOAT as you’re going to get. Its such a bad comparison, just like Kobe was. And just as I said with Kobe, you wait you’ll see just how quickly after lebron retires it’ll move on to the next player being compared to Jordan. Not Lebron… but Jordan as the GOAT. Lebron comparisons would simply feel fake and fabricated, as they are. Jordan has 80+ % of bases covered in this one, and that’s game set match.

And of course we are lucky enough that there are several players who played both and every single one says it’s Jordan “by far” “no question” etc. Yeah, that’s unanimous.

Let's see how many things he lied about or was flat out wrong about.

1. MJ is 5th in winshares, not first. He is below Kareem, LeBron Wilt and Malone.
2. VORP per 48? He's just making up stats now
3. Jokic is #1 in PER, not MJ.
4. Jokic is #1 in BPM, not MJ.
5. LeBron is #1 in playoff win shares by far.

He lied about 4 things and then created his own stat I know you say I have an agenda. But I'm not frequently just COMPLETELY wrong or straight up lying like he is. He needs to defend Jordan so much that he creates pure fiction. It's wild.

Look at you, trying to use cumulative stats again

Jordan handily leads lebron in winshares per 48 and vorp per 48.

Once again, you have to fall back on cumulative stats and excuses, all decorated in trashy language as a defense mechanism.

Sorry bled but this reply isn’t going to cut it. It’s been proven that your word and pretty much everything and anything you say from here on out can’t be taken seriously. You couldn’t even get the time Chicago beat Detroit correct. We have no reason to believe you actually know anything at all about MJ.

This is what happens when you’re a closet anti LeBron extremest disguising themself as a Jordan fan. Eventually they’re going to out themselves.

[bledredwine]

"on this occasion". No, lmao. He's constantly straight up lying or wildly incorrect about things. Let's just look at this post from page 12 of this thread. Below is the link to it, and also below is his quote.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&start=220#p116808781


Let's see how many things he lied about or was flat out wrong about.

1. MJ is 5th in winshares, not first. He is below Kareem, LeBron Wilt and Malone.
2. VORP per 48? He's just making up stats now
3. Jokic is #1 in PER, not MJ.
4. Jokic is #1 in BPM, not MJ.
5. LeBron is #1 in playoff win shares by far.

He lied about 4 things and then created his own stat I know you say I have an agenda. But I'm not frequently just COMPLETELY wrong or straight up lying like he is. He needs to defend Jordan so much that he creates pure fiction. It's wild.

Look at you, trying to use cumulative stats again

Jordan handily leads lebron in winshares per 48 and vorp per 48.

Once again, you have to fall back on cumulative stats and excuses, all decorated in trashy language as a defense mechanism.

Sorry bled but this reply isn’t going to cut it. It’s been proven that your word and pretty much everything and anything you say from here on out can’t be taken seriously. You couldn’t even get the time Chicago beat Detroit correct. We have no reason to believe you actually know anything at all about MJ.

This is what happens when you’re a closet anti LeBron extremest disguising themself as a Jordan fan. Eventually they’re going to out themselves.

lol, are you kidding me? Ever heard of a typo? Cavs, not Pistons.

I can't take anything you say seriously as you literally post dramatic language instead of actual basketball stats and evidence.
You both have become quite the spectacle.

I still watch games from the 80s and FYI it wasn't even the Pistons where he was an underdog. It was the Cavs

Watch on YouTube

Crazy thing? The year prior, he had back to back 50 point games in the playoffs against the Cavs, the only back to back 50 point playoff games in NBA history. From now on, I can just post videos so that it burns deeper for you both. That's fairly hard to refute

Fact is, this is a stupid comparison. Jordan accomplished much more in way less time and has the advanced stats covered. Lebron just has longevity. That, you know.

[bledredwine]

Comparing Lebron and Jordan pre-championship

2011 Finals, Lebron aged 26 which is a player's prime
Lebron blows a 2-1 lead after teaming up with 2 top 10 players, getting owned
by Jason Terry in the process.

This was a choke (that's right witness), as Lebron had four straight games with a game score of under 14. How can you say that's not a choke of any all time great?

2011 Finals LBJ 4th quarter stats


Game 1 - 5 points
Game 2 - 2 points
Game 3 - 2 points
Game 4 - 0 points
Game 5 - 2 points

And you're trying to say that wasn't a choke?
Funny thing? Lebron has plenty of other disappointments.

How about we compare the years before they got their first championship and were climbing?

Jordan? Pre 1991, yes, was losing... but he was showing up in every. single. series.
2010 Lebron, however, choked in 2010 vs. Boston. Cavs were the favorites, had homeport advantage and were
expected to play Kobe's Lakers in the finals. The final three games, Lebron crapped the bed,
averaging 21.6 ppg, 8.3 ast, 6.3 TOV, 34% from the field and 15.4% from 3.
This was after going 2-1 against the Celtics.

Jordan's worst series blow may have been 1989,
when in games 4-6, they blew a lead but he still was far superior to Lebron's 2011 finals or 2010 Celtics series,
averaging 24.3 ppg, 8.6 ast, 4.3 TO, 44.9 FG%, and 33.3% from the field against the Badboy Pistons defense.

The other difference? Jordan's Bulls were the clear underdog.

2008 against Boston? Lebron fans jump to his 45 ppg game 7, but forget,
games 1-6? He averaged 23.7 ppg, 7.8 ast, 5.8 TOV, 32.5% FG 21.4% from 3

Jordan in the ECF 1990 against the Pistons?
32.1 ppg, 6.3 ast, 2.9 TOV, 46.7 FG%, 28.6% 3 (3 pt line invented in 1980 btw)

From 06 through 2011, Lebron had 14 playoff games where he shot under 35%. Jordan had 4 between 85-90 and 3 were against the brutal Detroit team.

Games with a game score under 14 in that time period?
Jordan - 2. Lebron - 13, including a game with a negative game score


Go ahead and fact check. Everything I've checked checks out.
Taken from

Watch on YouTube

Okay. That's chapter 1 of like 6 chapters I have comparing these guys very specifically. It's going to be a harmony joyride!

[Iwasawitness]

lol, are you kidding me? Ever heard of a typo? Cavs, not Pistons.

A typo



This man really said a typo.

Buddy, a typo doesn't apply when you put in the wrong word entirely. At that point you had your facts completely wrong.

Unless... you're trying to say you got the years wrong, which, again, just further proves the point I've made multiple times now, which is that you don't fact check anything you say and that you throw **** out there and hope no one calls you out on it.

And even then, that wouldn't matter. You were still wrong about the Lakers being favorites (even after someone already pointed it out to you, gave evidence, and you STILL replied saying that they were wrong and that they should "look it up"), and you were still wrong about who played in the 95 ECF. Let me guess: that one was a typo too?

I can't take anything you say seriously as you literally post dramatic language instead of actual basketball stats and evidence.
You both have become quite the spectacle.

That's because the very first time we did debate, that's all I did was post stats and evidence. I picked apart every single thing you had to say. You backed out from that point on and resorted to either ignoring me or trolling. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter what we post. You're going to resort to the same thing you always resort to, just like you're doing now. That's what people who are biased and have an agenda do. They don't admit to being wrong, they don't admit to their mistakes. You just literally tried to blame mixing up two teams on a typo.

There's no point in putting forth the effort. You aren't worth that time.

I still watch games from the 80s and FYI it wasn't even the Pistons where he was an underdog. It was the Cavs

No you don't. I'm fully convinced at this point that you've never once watched a single full game from the 80s, or even the 90s for that matter. In fact I'll take it one step further and say you probably aren't even a basketball fan. You just really, really hate LeBron. And hell, I would at least respect it if you were just honest about it. I'm honest about what I am, why can't you do the same?

I'm not reading the rest of your post. I see there's a youtube video and it's probably just like the rest that you normally post: laughable garbage that isn't worth my time watching.

[michaelm]

lol, are you kidding me? Ever heard of a typo? Cavs, not Pistons.

A typo



This man really said a typo.

Buddy, a typo doesn't apply when you put in the wrong word entirely. At that point you had your facts completely wrong.

Unless... you're trying to say you got the years wrong, which, again, just further proves the point I've made multiple times now, which is that you don't fact check anything you say and that you throw **** out there and hope no one calls you out on it.

And even then, that wouldn't matter. You were still wrong about the Lakers being favorites (even after someone already pointed it out to you, gave evidence, and you STILL replied saying that they were wrong and that they should "look it up"), and you were still wrong about who played in the 95 ECF. Let me guess: that one was a typo too?

I can't take anything you say seriously as you literally post dramatic language instead of actual basketball stats and evidence.
You both have become quite the spectacle.

That's because the very first time we did debate, that's all I did was post stats and evidence. I picked apart every single thing you had to say. You backed out from that point on and resorted to either ignoring me or trolling. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter what we post. You're going to resort to the same thing you always resort to, just like you're doing now. That's what people who are biased and have an agenda do. They don't admit to being wrong, they don't admit to their mistakes. You just literally tried to blame mixing up two teams on a typo.

There's no point in putting forth the effort. You aren't worth that time.

I still watch games from the 80s and FYI it wasn't even the Pistons where he was an underdog. It was the Cavs

No you don't. I'm fully convinced at this point that you've never once watched a single full game from the 80s, or even the 90s for that matter. In fact I'll take it one step further and say you probably aren't even a basketball fan. You just really, really hate LeBron. And hell, I would at least respect it if you were just honest about it. I'm honest about what I am, why can't you do the same?

I'm not reading the rest of your post. I see there's a youtube video and it's probably just like the rest that you normally post: laughable garbage that isn't worth my time watching.

So what have you been honest about exactly ?.

You are very obviously a LeBron fan (not that there is anything wrong with that) however much you self importantly pretend to be evidence based and above the fray and hence qualified to adjudicate on both sides of a LeBron vs Jordan debate. You may have convinced Scranton Bulls, but few other posters I fear.

You have made some fairly ridiculous assertions yourself that rather give the game away, such as that the triangle offense was devised to cover Jordan’s deficiencies, and that current players would be qualified to have an opinion on the Jordan vs LeBron question due to watching old footage of Jordan to a sufficient degree to judge same. I rather suspect they prefer to spend their limited free time chasing women, playing video games and engaging with social media like other young men of their age rather than watching 25 or 30 year old footage of Michael Jordan.

[bledredwine]

lol, are you kidding me? Ever heard of a typo? Cavs, not Pistons.

A typo



This man really said a typo.

Buddy, a typo doesn't apply when you put in the wrong word entirely. At that point you had your facts completely wrong.

Unless... you're trying to say you got the years wrong, which, again, just further proves the point I've made multiple times now, which is that you don't fact check anything you say and that you throw **** out there and hope no one calls you out on it.

And even then, that wouldn't matter. You were still wrong about the Lakers being favorites (even after someone already pointed it out to you, gave evidence, and you STILL replied saying that they were wrong and that they should "look it up"), and you were still wrong about who played in the 95 ECF. Let me guess: that one was a typo too?

I can't take anything you say seriously as you literally post dramatic language instead of actual basketball stats and evidence.
You both have become quite the spectacle.

That's because the very first time we did debate, that's all I did was post stats and evidence. I picked apart every single thing you had to say. You backed out from that point on and resorted to either ignoring me or trolling. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter what we post. You're going to resort to the same thing you always resort to, just like you're doing now. That's what people who are biased and have an agenda do. They don't admit to being wrong, they don't admit to their mistakes. You just literally tried to blame mixing up two teams on a typo.

There's no point in putting forth the effort. You aren't worth that time.

I still watch games from the 80s and FYI it wasn't even the Pistons where he was an underdog. It was the Cavs

No you don't. I'm fully convinced at this point that you've never once watched a single full game from the 80s, or even the 90s for that matter. In fact I'll take it one step further and say you probably aren't even a basketball fan. You just really, really hate LeBron. And hell, I would at least respect it if you were just honest about it. I'm honest about what I am, why can't you do the same?

I'm not reading the rest of your post. I see there's a youtube video and it's probably just like the rest that you normally post: laughable garbage that isn't worth my time watching.

Literally 0 basketball exists in this post. I don’t care to talk drama with you. How about addressing the video and post above?

[Iwasawitness]

lol, are you kidding me? Ever heard of a typo? Cavs, not Pistons.

A typo



This man really said a typo.

Buddy, a typo doesn't apply when you put in the wrong word entirely. At that point you had your facts completely wrong.

Unless... you're trying to say you got the years wrong, which, again, just further proves the point I've made multiple times now, which is that you don't fact check anything you say and that you throw **** out there and hope no one calls you out on it.

And even then, that wouldn't matter. You were still wrong about the Lakers being favorites (even after someone already pointed it out to you, gave evidence, and you STILL replied saying that they were wrong and that they should "look it up"), and you were still wrong about who played in the 95 ECF. Let me guess: that one was a typo too?

I can't take anything you say seriously as you literally post dramatic language instead of actual basketball stats and evidence.
You both have become quite the spectacle.

That's because the very first time we did debate, that's all I did was post stats and evidence. I picked apart every single thing you had to say. You backed out from that point on and resorted to either ignoring me or trolling. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter what we post. You're going to resort to the same thing you always resort to, just like you're doing now. That's what people who are biased and have an agenda do. They don't admit to being wrong, they don't admit to their mistakes. You just literally tried to blame mixing up two teams on a typo.

There's no point in putting forth the effort. You aren't worth that time.

I still watch games from the 80s and FYI it wasn't even the Pistons where he was an underdog. It was the Cavs

No you don't. I'm fully convinced at this point that you've never once watched a single full game from the 80s, or even the 90s for that matter. In fact I'll take it one step further and say you probably aren't even a basketball fan. You just really, really hate LeBron. And hell, I would at least respect it if you were just honest about it. I'm honest about what I am, why can't you do the same?

I'm not reading the rest of your post. I see there's a youtube video and it's probably just like the rest that you normally post: laughable garbage that isn't worth my time watching.

So what have you been honest about exactly ?.

You are very obviously a LeBron fan (not that there is anything wrong with that) however much you self importantly pretend to be evidence based and above the fray and hence qualified to adjudicate on both sides of a LeBron vs Jordan debate. You may have convinced Scranton Bulls, but few other posters I fear.

You have made some fairly ridiculous assertions yourself that rather give the game away, such as that the triangle offense was devised to cover Jordan’s deficiencies, and that current players would be qualified to have an opinion on the Jordan vs LeBron question due to watching old footage of Jordan to a sufficient degree to judge same. I rather suspect they prefer to spend their limited free time chasing women, playing video games and engaging with social media like other young men of their age rather than watching 25 or 30 year old footage of Michael Jordan.

And there you go once again pretending I’m saying something that I’ve never said. I don’t know why you continue to do this, but either way, it’s given me more reasons not to bother with you anymore.

[Iwasawitness]

lol, are you kidding me? Ever heard of a typo? Cavs, not Pistons.

A typo



This man really said a typo.

Buddy, a typo doesn't apply when you put in the wrong word entirely. At that point you had your facts completely wrong.

Unless... you're trying to say you got the years wrong, which, again, just further proves the point I've made multiple times now, which is that you don't fact check anything you say and that you throw **** out there and hope no one calls you out on it.

And even then, that wouldn't matter. You were still wrong about the Lakers being favorites (even after someone already pointed it out to you, gave evidence, and you STILL replied saying that they were wrong and that they should "look it up"), and you were still wrong about who played in the 95 ECF. Let me guess: that one was a typo too?

I can't take anything you say seriously as you literally post dramatic language instead of actual basketball stats and evidence.
You both have become quite the spectacle.

That's because the very first time we did debate, that's all I did was post stats and evidence. I picked apart every single thing you had to say. You backed out from that point on and resorted to either ignoring me or trolling. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter what we post. You're going to resort to the same thing you always resort to, just like you're doing now. That's what people who are biased and have an agenda do. They don't admit to being wrong, they don't admit to their mistakes. You just literally tried to blame mixing up two teams on a typo.

There's no point in putting forth the effort. You aren't worth that time.

I still watch games from the 80s and FYI it wasn't even the Pistons where he was an underdog. It was the Cavs

No you don't. I'm fully convinced at this point that you've never once watched a single full game from the 80s, or even the 90s for that matter. In fact I'll take it one step further and say you probably aren't even a basketball fan. You just really, really hate LeBron. And hell, I would at least respect it if you were just honest about it. I'm honest about what I am, why can't you do the same?

I'm not reading the rest of your post. I see there's a youtube video and it's probably just like the rest that you normally post: laughable garbage that isn't worth my time watching.

Literally 0 basketball exists in this post. I don’t care to talk drama with you. How about addressing the video and post above?

How about addressing all the videos and posts in the past I’ve made in response to you that you ignored?

[bledredwine]

A typo



This man really said a typo.

Buddy, a typo doesn't apply when you put in the wrong word entirely. At that point you had your facts completely wrong.

Unless... you're trying to say you got the years wrong, which, again, just further proves the point I've made multiple times now, which is that you don't fact check anything you say and that you throw **** out there and hope no one calls you out on it.

And even then, that wouldn't matter. You were still wrong about the Lakers being favorites (even after someone already pointed it out to you, gave evidence, and you STILL replied saying that they were wrong and that they should "look it up"), and you were still wrong about who played in the 95 ECF. Let me guess: that one was a typo too?



That's because the very first time we did debate, that's all I did was post stats and evidence. I picked apart every single thing you had to say. You backed out from that point on and resorted to either ignoring me or trolling. The truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter what we post. You're going to resort to the same thing you always resort to, just like you're doing now. That's what people who are biased and have an agenda do. They don't admit to being wrong, they don't admit to their mistakes. You just literally tried to blame mixing up two teams on a typo.

There's no point in putting forth the effort. You aren't worth that time.



No you don't. I'm fully convinced at this point that you've never once watched a single full game from the 80s, or even the 90s for that matter. In fact I'll take it one step further and say you probably aren't even a basketball fan. You just really, really hate LeBron. And hell, I would at least respect it if you were just honest about it. I'm honest about what I am, why can't you do the same?

I'm not reading the rest of your post. I see there's a youtube video and it's probably just like the rest that you normally post: laughable garbage that isn't worth my time watching.

Literally 0 basketball exists in this post. I don’t care to talk drama with you. How about addressing the video and post above?

How about addressing all the videos and posts in the past I’ve made in response to you that you ignored?

For example?

If they were addressed by someone else, I had no need. Looks like you don't want to address it.
I get it - it's not a good look for Lebron in any of these really.

[Iwasawitness]

Literally 0 basketball exists in this post. I don’t care to talk drama with you. How about addressing the video and post above?

How about addressing all the videos and posts in the past I’ve made in response to you that you ignored?

For example?

If they were addressed by someone else, I had no need. Looks like you don't want to address it.
I get it - it's not a good look for Lebron in any of these really.

Okay, so you're now saying you'll address past posts?

Perfect, let's start with this one:

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog.

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the New York Knicks

Explain why and how you managed to be wrong on all three of these. And don't lie and claim they were typos.

[Djoker]

Happy Birthday to MJ who just turned 62 today!

Man how time flies...

[bledredwine]

How about addressing all the videos and posts in the past I’ve made in response to you that you ignored?

For example?

If they were addressed by someone else, I had no need. Looks like you don't want to address it.
I get it - it's not a good look for Lebron in any of these really.

Okay, so you're now saying you'll address past posts?

Perfect, let's start with this one:

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog.

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the New York Knicks

Explain why and how you managed to be wrong on all three of these. And don't lie and claim they were typos.

Sure. 89 was Cavs (obviously, and I accidentally said Detroit). 95 was semi-finals, yep typo.

Now, you go ahead and address how Lebron getting 2 points per 4th quarter and four straight games under 14 gamescore wasn't a choke in 2011. That's much more important. It's actual basketball, and has nothing to do with you or me.

Your turn! Copied and pasted.'

Comparing Lebron and Jordan pre-championship

2011 Finals, Lebron aged 26 which is a player's prime
Lebron blows a 2-1 lead after teaming up with 2 top 10 players, getting owned
by Jason Terry in the process.

This was a choke (that's right witness), as Lebron had four straight games with a game score of under 14. How can you say that's not a choke of any all time great?

2011 Finals LBJ 4th quarter stats


Game 1 - 5 points
Game 2 - 2 points
Game 3 - 2 points
Game 4 - 0 points
Game 5 - 2 points

And you're trying to say that wasn't a choke?
Funny thing? Lebron has plenty of other disappointments.

How about we compare the years before they got their first championship and were climbing?

Jordan? Pre 1991, yes, was losing... but he was showing up in every. single. series.
2010 Lebron, however, choked in 2010 vs. Boston. Cavs were the favorites, had homeport advantage and were
expected to play Kobe's Lakers in the finals. The final three games, Lebron crapped the bed,
averaging 21.6 ppg, 8.3 ast, 6.3 TOV, 34% from the field and 15.4% from 3.
This was after going 2-1 against the Celtics.

Jordan's worst series blow may have been 1989,
when in games 4-6, they blew a lead but he still was far superior to Lebron's 2011 finals or 2010 Celtics series,
averaging 24.3 ppg, 8.6 ast, 4.3 TO, 44.9 FG%, and 33.3% from the field against the Badboy Pistons defense.

The other difference? Jordan's Bulls were the clear underdog.

2008 against Boston? Lebron fans jump to his 45 ppg game 7, but forget,
games 1-6? He averaged 23.7 ppg, 7.8 ast, 5.8 TOV, 32.5% FG 21.4% from 3

Jordan in the ECF 1990 against the Pistons?
32.1 ppg, 6.3 ast, 2.9 TOV, 46.7 FG%, 28.6% 3 (3 pt line invented in 1980 btw)

From 06 through 2011, Lebron had 14 playoff games where he shot under 35%. Jordan had 4 between 85-90 and 3 were against the brutal Detroit team.

Games with a game score under 14 in that time period?
Jordan - 2. Lebron - 13, including a game with a negative game score


Go ahead and fact check. Everything I've checked checks out.
Taken from

Watch on YouTube

Okay. That's chapter 1 of like 6 chapters I have comparing these guys very specifically. It's going to be a harmony joyride!

[Iwasawitness]

For example?

If they were addressed by someone else, I had no need. Looks like you don't want to address it.
I get it - it's not a good look for Lebron in any of these really.

Okay, so you're now saying you'll address past posts?

Perfect, let's start with this one:

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog.

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the New York Knicks

Explain why and how you managed to be wrong on all three of these. And don't lie and claim they were typos.

Sure. 89 was Cavs (obviously, and I accidentally said Detroit). 95 was semi-finals, yep typo.

Nope, not reading anything else you just typed until you properly address this.

First off, you still haven't addressed the fact that you twice incorrectly stated that the Lakers were favorites in 91 even after you were given proof that you were wrong. Explain why you tried pushing this narrative. Second and more importantly, you just further outed yourself by stating that the 95 part was also just "a typo". Even if that was just a typo and you meant semi-finals, guess what? You're still wrong. Chicago didn't play New York that year, they played Orlando, and they lost.

So again, I ask: explain. We're not doing this until we get a proper explanation out of you. Not a straight up lie like you just did. You tell us all right now what your thought process was when you made that post.

[ScrantonBulls]

Literally 0 basketball exists in this post. I don’t care to talk drama with you. How about addressing the video and post above?

How about addressing all the videos and posts in the past I’ve made in response to you that you ignored?

For example?

If they were addressed by someone else, I had no need. Looks like you don't want to address it.
I get it - it's not a good look for Lebron in any of these really.

While we're at it and you're answering for your numerous lies, how about answering why you lied 4-5 times below?

But he is. And nothing in this thread has really shown otherwise. Look at the poll… and that’s despite the PC crew heading over and Lebron being an active player.
No one has said “the next Lebron”
6 championships, 10 scoring titles (record), 9 times first team defense (record), first in winshares, vorp per 48, PER, ppg, box plus minus, all in regular season and playoffs. Jordan has 19 of the top 100 gamescores of all time singlehandedly and 7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages ever himself; all hyper efficient by the way. Only four times has a player won regular season MVP, finals MVP, the scoring title and was first team defense.. all Jordan.

Never choked in a finals or put his team in a position to lose, never let his finals matchup win FMVP (let alone four times), held teammates accountable so they didn’t make dumb defensive mistakes and were battle ready, didn’t bandwagon teams to chase championships “not 6 not 7 not 8” didn’t let a player outscore him in career head to head (as durant has against lebron)

Thats as close to unanimous GOAT as you’re going to get. Its such a bad comparison, just like Kobe was. And just as I said with Kobe, you wait you’ll see just how quickly after lebron retires it’ll move on to the next player being compared to Jordan. Not Lebron… but Jordan as the GOAT. Lebron comparisons would simply feel fake and fabricated, as they are. Jordan has 80+ % of bases covered in this one, and that’s game set match.

And of course we are lucky enough that there are several players who played both and every single one says it’s Jordan “by far” “no question” etc. Yeah, that’s unanimous.

Let's see how many things he lied about or was flat out wrong about.

1. MJ is 5th in winshares, not first. He is below Kareem, LeBron Wilt and Malone.
2. VORP per 48? Just making up stats now
3. Jokic is #1 in PER, not MJ.
4. Jokic is #1 in BPM, not MJ.
5. LeBron is #1 in playoff win shares by far.

What's the excuse here? More typos?