Magic and Kings off-sason deal

[Braggins]

If I was Sacramento I would be going after Malik Monk.

Monk/Keon/Zach should be starting with DeMar cooking off the bench IMO. At least until the Monk - PG experiment definitively fails

My post was a typo and I meant so say Orlando should go after Monk, but I agree about Sacramento's starting lineup and had the same exact thought after they traded for Lavine.

[BoogieTime]

DeAaron Fox plays for Chicago now? Or did Sacramento trade Fox for a bunch if value, and then send their “bad contracts and a single protected first” to Chicago for Lavine?

Ultimately, Sacramento traded Huerter, Zach Collins, Tre Jones and the Chicago protected first for Lavine and a 2nd. Feels like here they’re trading Lavine for good players, no bad contracts, and a still valuable rookie contract player. That’s a huge return on investment, no?

I think we have different opinions on Isaac and WCJ.....

I agree this is clearly where we differ.

From where I sit, they aren't positive collectively.....

WCJ's offense has cratered this season.. Isaac is still a profound defensive player, but his offense is so bad you couldn't start him with Domas or anything, or start him in too many places IMO. And then an organization couldn't build around his health anyhoo. WCJ wouldnt play with Domas/Val

I agree on WCJ's offense this season. But I think that guy that's been there the last 3 or so seasons is likely to return? And, I think you could play WCJ with either of Domas or Val in limited minutes. He offers enough stretch and movement to easily play with Sabonis, even if it's not perfect.

As for Isaac, I think that he'd have to play somewhat limited minutes...maybe he and WCJ platoon at the 4? But with Sabonis as the 5, I think Isaac is kind of the perfect impactful defender next to Sabonis. And with how Sabonis can pass people open for easy shots, I think Isaac would excel there. When Sabonis was in Indy, we always pictured Isaac (albeit, pre multiple injuries) as the PERFECT prototype PF fit next to Sabonis. And, I think WCJ and Isaac are on great team controlled contracts to protect from any major downsides going forward. As we saw this year with team's struggling to staff the C spot, I think WCJ is a great low end starter, top tier backup C that will maintain value in trade.

And the way Magic fans are reacting to the trade I will assume Black holds more value to them and their eye tests than his numbers..

Again, he's a really good defender at multiple guard spots, while his offensive game is struggling to come along. Luckily, his secondary distributing ability helps a ton there, and seems to have some promise in growth. And, he just turned 21. There's definitely a lot of promise there.

So, the value, seems about even to what the Kings gave up IMO but direction is off though the Magic players may have more market value....

I would agree direction is different, and the Magic players have more market value. I just think that Sacramento, if they're to build around Sabonis/Murray, should put as many solid defenders around them as possible. This kind of move does that.

But directionally it doesn't work for the kings certainly (so no they wouldn't love anything in your words). Again, despite Lavine's reputation, he's been thoroughly a solid player for a couple years and is the best player here. And the Kings are winning now, and have been after Lavine, and aren't gambling on Black at this juncture.

I'm sure Ranadive would hate to move Lavine. He has lusted after him for awhile. I just think that if they had an offer of so much value, they'd have to take it and flip a bit in terms of direction.

And Lavine can move to SF in the future (he played SF/PF in Chicago)

Oh! I think WCJ could equally move to SF in the future to accommodate Sabonis/Val

Isaac once spread the floor, now he’d just be in the dunkers spot clogging up offense. Offense where Domas operates

Good point on WCJ, but sometimes players get paid… you usually trade for what they are currently doing

But aside from how we feel differently on those players, what about the difference in opinion on Lavine? Our FO has been on the hunt for him for some time.. while the nba market has been lukewarm. But what if our FO is right? He’s been incredibly efficient as a scorer, and Chicago fans were up in arms about the return for him and praised him. Maybe he has a veteran chapter of a highly efficient sg/sf (health permitting with him)

[Scoot McGroot]

Isaac once spread the floor, now he’d just be in the dunkers spot clogging up offense. Offense where Domas operates

Domas doesn’t usually just stand in the dunkers spot, though. He starts at the elbows or top of the key and he can get to where he wants to be. He would motion Isaac to the other side, and he’d just power his way to the block he wants. And when a guy doubles, then he’d hit Isaac in perfect time on the other block. But no, Sabonis doesn’t just sit in the dunkers spot. He creates and gets where he needs. And an Isaac won’t affect him in that regard.

Good point on WCJ, but sometimes players get paid… you usually trade for what they are currently doing

Yeah, totally. But Sacramento has tried often for Lavine, including when he wasn’t what he even is now. They traded for him for what they hope he will be, not what he has been. Why not WCJ?

To be honest, WCJ is also a major target for me if Myles walks. I think he’s super useful, and affordable.

But aside from how we feel differently on those players, what about the difference in opinion on Lavine? Our FO has been on the hunt for him for some time.. while the nba market has been lukewarm. But what if our FO is right? He’s been incredibly efficient as a scorer, and Chicago fans were up in arms about the return for him and praised him. Maybe he has a veteran chapter of a highly efficient sg/sf (health permitting with him)

Yeah, Sacramento has been interested for awhile. And it’s possible he could become a completely new player that he hasn’t really shown, like you hope. But it’s not even his offense that’s ever been a problem. Its his poor defense, his lack of attention, and is habit of requiring too many heat checks that fail before he flips the plan a bit. He shoots his team into games, and then he often defends and shoots his team back out of games. Teams know this, and Sacramento is hoping he’ll be different for them.


It is possible that Chicago is the one franchise that is right and the 29 others are wrong, especially the other teams that already worked hard and in depth with him. I just don’t assume that is likely.

[OrlandoDream]

ORL doesnt have an interest in Levine. He has been on the market for almost 3 years. His was traded for half that and his price keeps decreasing. Its a small sample size but already looks like he isn't a good fit in SAC with all those guards.

Now if Sac decides to blow it up? ORL would def call on Monk and Keon Ellis.

Agreed. I don't think the Kings can get the value in the OP for Lavine. He is definitely the best player in the deal when he is playing like he has earlier this season. BUT that contract for Orlando isn't really what they require at this time. Monk's deal and game are a lot better.
Keon Ellis hopefully gets into position as the starting 2 for the Kings next season. It likely won't happen though unless the Kings hire a veteran coach that is huge on defense.
I would love nothing more though that to see Keon on a team like Orlando with the defensive scheme/assets the Magic has. Would pay good money to watch that alone.

Yeah I think it wishful thinking on Keon. Kings know they have a good young piece to build for the future. If anything, maybe Monk is the one that is shopped? Gotta pay Keon after next season.

[BoogieTime]

Isaac once spread the floor, now he’d just be in the dunkers spot clogging up offense. Offense where Domas operates

Domas doesn’t usually just stand in the dunkers spot, though. He starts at the elbows or top of the key and he can get to where he wants to be. He would motion Isaac to the other side, and he’d just power his way to the block he wants. And when a guy doubles, then he’d hit Isaac in perfect time on the other block. But no, Sabonis doesn’t just sit in the dunkers spot. He creates and gets where he needs. And an Isaac won’t affect him in that regard.

Good point on WCJ, but sometimes players get paid… you usually trade for what they are currently doing

Yeah, totally. But Sacramento has tried often for Lavine, including when he wasn’t what he even is now. They traded for him for what they hope he will be, not what he has been. Why not WCJ?

To be honest, WCJ is also a major target for me if Myles walks. I think he’s super useful, and affordable.

But aside from how we feel differently on those players, what about the difference in opinion on Lavine? Our FO has been on the hunt for him for some time.. while the nba market has been lukewarm. But what if our FO is right? He’s been incredibly efficient as a scorer, and Chicago fans were up in arms about the return for him and praised him. Maybe he has a veteran chapter of a highly efficient sg/sf (health permitting with him)

Yeah, Sacramento has been interested for awhile. And it’s possible he could become a completely new player that he hasn’t really shown, like you hope. But it’s not even his offense that’s ever been a problem. Its his poor defense, his lack of attention, and is habit of requiring too many heat checks that fail before he flips the plan a bit. He shoots his team into games, and then he often defends and shoots his team back out of games. Teams know this, and Sacramento is hoping he’ll be different for them.


It is possible that Chicago is the one franchise that is right and the 29 others are wrong, especially the other teams that already worked hard and in depth with him. I just don’t assume that is likely.

Domas may start there but go downhill.

Zach's been it for two seasons, its called Steph like shooting/efficiency as a a scorer. Hopefully its a trend that continues to his vet 30s

[LightTheBeam]

Ya i think we are just stuck with lavine the next 2 years sadly. Guessing monk is going to be the one who gets traded, and he's on a great contract. Something around him for Black makes sense for both teams.

Sac can then flip demar for a real pf and just stick Lavine as a super overpaid backup 2g.

Black - Keon - Keegan - PF - Sabonis
Lavine - JVal

Maybe you get a decent team.

[Scoot McGroot]

Isaac once spread the floor, now he’d just be in the dunkers spot clogging up offense. Offense where Domas operates

Domas doesn’t usually just stand in the dunkers spot, though. He starts at the elbows or top of the key and he can get to where he wants to be. He would motion Isaac to the other side, and he’d just power his way to the block he wants. And when a guy doubles, then he’d hit Isaac in perfect time on the other block. But no, Sabonis doesn’t just sit in the dunkers spot. He creates and gets where he needs. And an Isaac won’t affect him in that regard.

Good point on WCJ, but sometimes players get paid… you usually trade for what they are currently doing

Yeah, totally. But Sacramento has tried often for Lavine, including when he wasn’t what he even is now. They traded for him for what they hope he will be, not what he has been. Why not WCJ?

To be honest, WCJ is also a major target for me if Myles walks. I think he’s super useful, and affordable.

But aside from how we feel differently on those players, what about the difference in opinion on Lavine? Our FO has been on the hunt for him for some time.. while the nba market has been lukewarm. But what if our FO is right? He’s been incredibly efficient as a scorer, and Chicago fans were up in arms about the return for him and praised him. Maybe he has a veteran chapter of a highly efficient sg/sf (health permitting with him)

Yeah, Sacramento has been interested for awhile. And it’s possible he could become a completely new player that he hasn’t really shown, like you hope. But it’s not even his offense that’s ever been a problem. Its his poor defense, his lack of attention, and is habit of requiring too many heat checks that fail before he flips the plan a bit. He shoots his team into games, and then he often defends and shoots his team back out of games. Teams know this, and Sacramento is hoping he’ll be different for them.


It is possible that Chicago is the one franchise that is right and the 29 others are wrong, especially the other teams that already worked hard and in depth with him. I just don’t assume that is likely.

Domas may start there but go downhill.

Someone in the dunker spot can't go downhill? They're already on the baseline?

Zach's been it for two seasons, its called Steph like shooting/efficiency as a a scorer. Hopefully its a trend that continues to his vet 30s

I'll be honest, I'm not seeing what statlines or comparisons that tell you that, because I can't find any/many? OBPM, TS%, on-off's, ORTG, FG Added, TS Added...I don't see Zach comparing?

[BoogieTime]

Ya i think we are just stuck with lavine the next 2 years sadly. Guessing monk is going to be the one who gets traded, and he's on a great contract. Something around him for Black makes sense for both teams.

Sac can then flip demar for a real pf and just stick Lavine as a super overpaid backup 2g.

Black - Keon - Keegan - PF - Sabonis
Lavine - JVal

Maybe you get a decent team.

That would imply that Zach isn't on the team's best players.

It would be a joke to not start him over the inconsistent, offensively lacking, non statistical Keegan Murray. If Fox was starting, who was offering zero to the table (inefficient/non spacing/no D), than certainly uber efficient Zach is starting.

He'll be at the three. And should be at the three, while Keon, who doesn't offer more magnitude of impact than a 24/5/5 player is allowed to start as well.

[LightTheBeam]

Ya i think we are just stuck with lavine the next 2 years sadly. Guessing monk is going to be the one who gets traded, and he's on a great contract. Something around him for Black makes sense for both teams.

Sac can then flip demar for a real pf and just stick Lavine as a super overpaid backup 2g.

Black - Keon - Keegan - PF - Sabonis
Lavine - JVal

Maybe you get a decent team.

That would imply that Zach isn't on the team's best players.

It would be a joke to not start him over the inconsistent, offensively lacking, non statistical Keegan Murray. If Fox was starting, who was offering zero to the table (inefficient/non spacing/no D), than certainly uber efficient Zach is starting.

He'll be at the three. And should be at the three, while Keon, who doesn't offer more magnitude of impact than a 24/5/5 player is allowed to start as well.

You keep repeating this, but sadly LaVine doesn't play team basketball. He makes nobody on the court better.

He may be efficient but there's a reason he's been on a perennial loser and wasn't worth his contract.

The Kings got him for negative value that's literally all that needs to be said. The Bulls were so ready to move on, they ate 80 million in dead money and took back their own protected pick that was unlikely to convey in the first place.

If Zach was such a winner with huge impact, you don't think any GM would have swooped in and offered some positive value? Not a single one?

[BoogieTime]

Ya i think we are just stuck with lavine the next 2 years sadly. Guessing monk is going to be the one who gets traded, and he's on a great contract. Something around him for Black makes sense for both teams.

Sac can then flip demar for a real pf and just stick Lavine as a super overpaid backup 2g.

Black - Keon - Keegan - PF - Sabonis
Lavine - JVal

Maybe you get a decent team.

That would imply that Zach isn't on the team's best players.

It would be a joke to not start him over the inconsistent, offensively lacking, non statistical Keegan Murray. If Fox was starting, who was offering zero to the table (inefficient/non spacing/no D), than certainly uber efficient Zach is starting.

He'll be at the three. And should be at the three, while Keon, who doesn't offer more magnitude of impact than a 24/5/5 player is allowed to start as well.

You keep repeating this, but sadly LaVine doesn't play team basketball. He makes nobody on the court better.

He may be efficient but there's a reason he's been on a perennial loser and wasn't worth his contract.

The Kings got him for negative value that's literally all that needs to be said. The Bulls were so ready to move on, they ate 80 million in dead money and took back their own protected pick that was unlikely to convey in the first place.

If Zach was such a winner with huge impact, you don't think any GM would have swooped in and offered some positive value? Not a single one?

Lottery pick in this stack draft, and a 26 million trade exception is positive value.

They were flirting with 11th while their pick was top ten protected. they were ready to rebuild and how devastating would it be to give up a 11th pick? It meant something to them.

and then go through this viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2436586

what is the tenor of that convo? "oh man we just got rid of an albatross" or "why the hell didn't Lavine who was putting up 24/5/5 on Curry efficiency and has started playing smart bball get us more""?

[LightTheBeam]

That would imply that Zach isn't on the team's best players.

It would be a joke to not start him over the inconsistent, offensively lacking, non statistical Keegan Murray. If Fox was starting, who was offering zero to the table (inefficient/non spacing/no D), than certainly uber efficient Zach is starting.

He'll be at the three. And should be at the three, while Keon, who doesn't offer more magnitude of impact than a 24/5/5 player is allowed to start as well.

You keep repeating this, but sadly LaVine doesn't play team basketball. He makes nobody on the court better.

He may be efficient but there's a reason he's been on a perennial loser and wasn't worth his contract.

The Kings got him for negative value that's literally all that needs to be said. The Bulls were so ready to move on, they ate 80 million in dead money and took back their own protected pick that was unlikely to convey in the first place.

If Zach was such a winner with huge impact, you don't think any GM would have swooped in and offered some positive value? Not a single one?

Lottery pick in this stack draft, and a 26 million trade exception is positive value.

They were flirting with 11th while their pick was top ten protected. they were ready to rebuild and how devastating would it be to give up a 11th pick? It meant something to them.

and then go through this viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2436586

what is the tenor of that convo? "oh man we just got rid of an albatross" or "why the hell didn't Lavine who was putting up 24/5/5 on Curry efficiency and has started playing smart bball get us more""?

They were 11th and the pick was top 10 protected lol. So they could have benched vuc or lavine and easily kept the pick.

Spin it however you like. Eating collins/huerter this year and next, and tre jones rest of this year is clearly negative value. You know it, I know it lol.

[BoogieTime]

You keep repeating this, but sadly LaVine doesn't play team basketball. He makes nobody on the court better.

He may be efficient but there's a reason he's been on a perennial loser and wasn't worth his contract.

The Kings got him for negative value that's literally all that needs to be said. The Bulls were so ready to move on, they ate 80 million in dead money and took back their own protected pick that was unlikely to convey in the first place.

If Zach was such a winner with huge impact, you don't think any GM would have swooped in and offered some positive value? Not a single one?

Lottery pick in this stack draft, and a 26 million trade exception is positive value.

They were flirting with 11th while their pick was top ten protected. they were ready to rebuild and how devastating would it be to give up a 11th pick? It meant something to them.

and then go through this viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2436586

what is the tenor of that convo? "oh man we just got rid of an albatross" or "why the hell didn't Lavine who was putting up 24/5/5 on Curry efficiency and has started playing smart bball get us more""?

They were 11th and the pick was top 10 protected lol. So they could have benched vuc or lavine and easily kept the pick.

Spin it however you like. Eating collins/huerter this year and next, and tre jones rest of this year is clearly negative value. You know it, I know it lol.

people jump in the lottery as well, and the team itself usually has more confidence in itself to win... im sure the FO was already trying to lose lol