Eddie Johnson tries to agree with Draymond and gets brutally fact-checked

[Tim Lehrbach]

This should be required watching for anyone complaining about today's game being too simple:

Watch on YouTube

So the thing about videos like this is they can be right and still sort of miss the point entirely that some fans are making.

Yes, absolutely there's a chess match being played to create these looks in today's offenses that the majority of fans are probably overlooking. But making the route to a simple goal increasingly complicated, does not necessarily make the process of watching that route more entertaining. For an extreme example, you could eliminate all scoring outside of layups, and I'm sure the teams would come up with all sorts of insane strategies to create lanes for guys to lay the ball in. But would that be a more entertaining product to watch, just based on how many hoops teams would jump through (pardon the pun) to create those layups?

And yeah, you're replacing long 2's with long 3's... but part of the beauty of the game to many, is seeing player creativity uninhibited by the 3-point line. Instead, what you're seeing is everything being played specifically around that line, guys dancing beyond it, taking stepbacks, dho's beyond the arc, etc.

This is valid: people can lament that the game no longer resembles the one they treasured for so long. But there's no need to invent stories or hurl pejoratives at the league and the fans who do value the way it's evolved, as so many of the so-called "old heads" do.

I prefer the game with fewer threes too! But I don't see the need to dismiss the compelling reasons why the shot has proliferated in service of a demeaning narrative. This is where I can't go with my 90s brethren.

[BlzMwt]

Whether they are from picks or not, the volume of 3-point attempts makes basketball more predictable than ever...
But there is one 3-point shooter who always looks entertaining... Anthony Edwards is mostly shooting 3s off the dribble and its hard to predict exactly when he'll shoot, because he likes to pretend that he's about to drive a lot. Plus his shooting motion is sexciting!

Thinking Basketball already killed this narrative. The amount of 3s is due to the fact that spot up shots used to be long 2s are now 3-point shots. The amount of shots taken in the paint has remained the same.

You are essentially arguing that long 2s are fun and unpredictable, while shooting a slightly longer 3s is boring and predictable.

(BTW, Today’s players also make their 3s at a higher% than ‘90s and ‘00s players made long 2s)

The “too many 3s” argument has been debunked. “Too many PnRs” has been debunked. Do you have any actual real criticisms?

LOL, the fact that players started sucking at posting up, mi range and long 2’s starting in the mid 90’s is the reason why the NBA had to change a bunch of rules to make the modern AAU babies seem better than they actually are!

The physicality that was part of the game since it started has always been cryptonite for finesse players who want to beat defenses with athleticism and illegal dribbles.

When you think about EVERY rule that has been created since the mid 90’s for the sole purpose of enhance offense and offensive players in general is really no surprise that you got these flag basketball NBA with no physicality and more importantly NO RIVALRIES to speak of.

Think about it, today’s modern soft nerds would say this is “the wrong way to play basketball”

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYSm9obiBwYXhzb24gMTk5MSA1IGZvciA1

A bunch of guys in todays NBE would be better served shooting 15-18 footers or posting up rather than launching 25 foot bricks but because the league wants to market themselves to the Euro and Chinese markets which have always preferred this soft as tissue paper style then this is pretty much what you’re gonna get for the foreseeable future.

These are another two guys who todays nerds would prefer shooting 10-11 3’a a game:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUcZG9taW5pcXVlIHdpbGtpbnMgaGlnaGxpZ2h0cw%3D%3D

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYamFtZXMgd29ydGh5IGNhcmVlciBoaWdo

What was the point of the Paxson video? Dude made some super clutch shots... okay. If he had of taken a step back they would have been worth more. Considering how wide open he was, probably would have made them too.

Imagine if instead of settling for these long twos he consistently stayed behind the three point line? Imagine the spacing Jordan would have had to work with?

What was the point of posting a highlight reel of Dominique dunks? He was considered one of the most powerful dunkers of all time... and would still be today?

Clearly you don't even understand the modern game or analytics if you think coaches would be telling Dominique to take 10-11 threes a game if he could attack the rim like he did in that video.

Maybe instead of posting a nonsensical rant you should try to understand what you're watching first.

[LakerLegend]

lol, how can you apply pressure on defense when you can't breath on a guy?

[BlzMwt]

2s are a lot more unpredictable than 3s, that is for certain, i just watched all of Chicago's NBA Finals games and they are more entertaining than anything i've ever seen!

Plus the 2s make defenders work a lot harder, whereas 3s often just make defenders put a hand up, and when Curry has a cold night you don't even need to put a hand up... and last season i remember hearing that Indiana were just waiting to get the ball and not even caring about defense

This is the most subjective and anecdotal posts on realgm I've ever read.

Last season you heard that the Pacers were not playing defense and just waiting to get the ball back? Do you realize how that makes no sense?

You honestly think when Curry is having a cold night that dudes aren't contesting his shot? Please actually go watch a Warrior game and see a bad Curry game where dudes will still be double teaming him off the ball.

And because you were entertained by the 90s Bulls who are considered one of the greatest teams of all time and they shot many more 2s (which all teams did) doesn't mean that 2s are more unpredictable than 3s.

Your responses tell me 1) you're new to basketball and 2) you didn't watch the Thinking Basketball video that's been posted in this thread where the creator shows how archaic offenses consistently threw it into the post to any player with low quality results.

[Sedale Threatt]

The NBE wanted to attract the Euro market which had been playing a softer perimeter oriented style of play since the 70’s but were always outmatched against the physical frontlines of the American game so the rule changes and shift in paradigm aside from trying to help out the fundamentally deficient AAU generation that started polluting the US system since the mid 90’s (Allen Iverson being the poster boy for this) also had the end goal of attracting those softer Euro players.

Do you really believe this is a more plausible version of events than the game just evolving in the direction of more sophisticated and effective offense? Everybody just sucked at developing talent or went "soft?"

The NBA was stuck in an era where we had a Finals with the average score of 87-85 and five of the losing teams failed to crack 80 points. San Antonio shot just below 43% for the series and won. Anti-basketball. League leadership would have been derelict in their duties to not open things back up.

That coincided with NBA coaches finally realizing they'd been drastically underutilizing the 3-point line, to the point of being criminally inept, and away we went.

[DOT]

lol, how can you apply pressure on defense when you can't breath on a guy?

There are fewer fouls called per game now than in the 90s

This year there have been 18.8 fouls per game. Hasn't been over 20 fouls per game since 2020 when it was 20.8. The lowest it was in the 90s was 1997, at 22.1 per game. When you adjust for pace, there are 18.9 fouls per 100 possessions this year. Lowest in the 90s was 1992 at 22.8 per 100.

[tsherkin]

Game has been figured out by numbers, and most teams play very similarly, because facts tell us it is the most efficient way to play.

Most teams have always played similarly, whether or not that was a smart idea, unless they had talent to dictate that they could do something else. That's not new. People just bitch about it more because we have broader access. We were having near-identical whining conversations on Usenet in the 90s.

[LakerLegend]

lol, how can you apply pressure on defense when you can't breath on a guy?

There are fewer fouls called per game now than in the 90s

This year there have been 18.8 fouls per game. Hasn't been over 20 fouls per game since 2020 when it was 20.8. The lowest it was in the 90s was 1997, at 22.1 per game. When you adjust for pace, there are 18.9 fouls per 100 possessions this year. Lowest in the 90s was 1992 at 22.8 per 100.

Yeah, because players are afraid to make contact.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Draymond's gonna make a killing as an NBA analyst. He's smart, glib, and usually wrong, because he talks out of his ass rather than does his homework. As Chuck and Shaq can tell you, that's the path to analyst stardom.

laughable, i can already see him failing like shaq

draymond has no redeeming qualities as a impartial see his beef with rudy gobert

the bullying by shaq to nba players unprovoked was unpopular and turned off viewers, ok lets double down on more of the bullying

[locomagicfan]

The real culprit was Stan Van Gundy. He's the real person who changed the entire NBA landscape since 2008/2009 with the 'stretch-4' format he introduced with Dwight Howard and Rashard Lewis down in ORL.

The NBA has been 3-pt heavy since then.

[SpreeS]

Watch on YouTube

Is this highlight reel supposed to be impressive? These are like Aaron Gordon’s B-list dunks.

Is this really what boomers were impressed with?

LOL, Nique was doing this against packed paints with 3, 4 or 4 people routinely camping inside with a shot blocking 7 footer waiting to challenge any drive to the basket. He did all this while being the main offensive weapon for the Hawks in the persons the most devastating conference of all time in the 80’s/90’s East.

The glorified scrub Gordon has never been close to his team’s offensive focus and has had the benefit of 25+ years of soft rule changes by the NBE to clear the paint for all perimeter players to attack the basket without any physical resistance.

80ies basketball was just run&gun with the fastest pace in 3P era. There was no defence, for example nba teams scored on avg over 110pts in 84/86. Over 60 FTA and 36 Tovs were made by both teams in every game!!!This isn’t nice basketball.

[SpreeS]

Watch on YouTube

Is this highlight reel supposed to be impressive? These are like Aaron Gordon’s B-list dunks.

Is this really what boomers were impressed with?

LOL, Nique was doing this against packed paints with 3, 4 or 4 people routinely camping inside with a shot blocking 7 footer waiting to challenge any drive to the basket. He did all this while being the main offensive weapon for the Hawks in the persons the most devastating conference of all time in the 80’s/90’s East.

The glorified scrub Gordon has never been close to his team’s offensive focus and has had the benefit of 25+ years of soft rule changes by the NBE to clear the paint for all perimeter players to attack the basket without any physical resistance.

80ies basketball was just run&gun with the fastest pace in 3P era. There was no defence, for example nba teams scored on avg over 110pts in 84/86. Over 60 FTA and 36 Tovs were made by both teams in every game!!!This isn’t nice basketball.

[dhsilv2]

I guess in that case there's more than one definition of complexity in basketball because I would define complexity as a measure of the variety of shots that end a possession.

That makes absolutely zero sense what so ever.

"a factor involved in a complicated process or situation."

By that logic all plays end with a make or a non make. The game is infinitely simple.

"A factor ( i.e. shot diversity at the end of a possession) involved in a complicated process or situation( i.e. scoring the basketball)". It actually perfectly matches that definition you so helpfully posted. And indeed there can be multiple factors involved in the same complicated process or situation.

It does make sense. I'm getting from you that no one else's definition is valid but yours and if that's how you feel then I'll leave it at that.

Saying the end of a complex set of actions is all that matters is pretty wild. It ignores everything the defense does adn everything they offense is trying to do. It's leaving 95% of what's happening out of the equation.

[dhsilv2]

Thinking Basketball already killed this narrative. The amount of 3s is due to the fact that spot up shots used to be long 2s are now 3-point shots. The amount of shots taken in the paint has remained the same.

You are essentially arguing that long 2s are fun and unpredictable, while shooting a slightly longer 3s is boring and predictable.

(BTW, Today’s players also make their 3s at a higher% than ‘90s and ‘00s players made long 2s)

The “too many 3s” argument has been debunked. “Too many PnRs” has been debunked. Do you have any actual real criticisms?

LOL, the fact that players started sucking at posting up, mi range and long 2’s starting in the mid 90’s is the reason why the NBA had to change a bunch of rules to make the modern AAU babies seem better than they actually are!

The physicality that was part of the game since it started has always been cryptonite for finesse players who want to beat defenses with athleticism and illegal dribbles.

When you think about EVERY rule that has been created since the mid 90’s for the sole purpose of enhance offense and offensive players in general is really no surprise that you got these flag basketball NBA with no physicality and more importantly NO RIVALRIES to speak of.

Think about it, today’s modern soft nerds would say this is “the wrong way to play basketball”

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYSm9obiBwYXhzb24gMTk5MSA1IGZvciA1

A bunch of guys in todays NBE would be better served shooting 15-18 footers or posting up rather than launching 25 foot bricks but because the league wants to market themselves to the Euro and Chinese markets which have always preferred this soft as tissue paper style then this is pretty much what you’re gonna get for the foreseeable future.

These are another two guys who todays nerds would prefer shooting 10-11 3’a a game:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUcZG9taW5pcXVlIHdpbGtpbnMgaGlnaGxpZ2h0cw%3D%3D

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYamFtZXMgd29ydGh5IGNhcmVlciBoaWdo

What was the point of the Paxson video? Dude made some super clutch shots... okay. If he had of taken a step back they would have been worth more. Considering how wide open he was, probably would have made them too.

Imagine if instead of settling for these long twos he consistently stayed behind the three point line? Imagine the spacing Jordan would have had to work with?

What was the point of posting a highlight reel of Dominique dunks? He was considered one of the most powerful dunkers of all time... and would still be today?

Clearly you don't even understand the modern game or analytics if you think coaches would be telling Dominique to take 10-11 threes a game if he could attack the rim like he did in that video.

Maybe instead of posting a nonsensical rant you should try to understand what you're watching first.

The nique video and your comment reminded me of when Taylor (I think?) did a video showing Chuck insulting analytics. And then pointing out how much analytics LOVE his game.

[Black star]

That makes absolutely zero sense what so ever.

"a factor involved in a complicated process or situation."

By that logic all plays end with a make or a non make. The game is infinitely simple.

"A factor ( i.e. shot diversity at the end of a possession) involved in a complicated process or situation( i.e. scoring the basketball)". It actually perfectly matches that definition you so helpfully posted. And indeed there can be multiple factors involved in the same complicated process or situation.

It does make sense. I'm getting from you that no one else's definition is valid but yours and if that's how you feel then I'll leave it at that.

Saying the end of a complex set of actions is all that matters is pretty wild. It ignores everything the defense does adn everything they offense is trying to do. It's leaving 95% of what's happening out of the equation.

I agree with you it's not all that matters. In the same way that all the off ball movement and screens that happen before the shot goes up isn't all that matters.

So just pointing at the increase in complexity of one part of the game doesn't invalidate the fact that another part of the game is getting simpler. Two things can be happening from different perspectives

[Revived]

I’m surprised most of yall know who Eddie Johnson is.

I know him cause im unfortunately a Suns fan but surprised the rest of yall non-Suns fans know him.

[UcanUwill]

Another thing that is absolutely lost today is the art of the post game... for both bigs and fundamental guards or wings. Some do it still of course and they are the stars, but back then role players were allowed to use up 4 second or more trying to make moves down low...

And they sucked at it

So teams stopped doing it

Because the goal is to win. Y'all need to understand, you're asking for teams to purposefully play worse basketball for no real reason, all while at the same time complaining about how "soft" players are today and how they don't want to win like they used to

Y'all are the ones who told us to watch the games. Don't be mad cause we did and found out y'all are wrong.

Yes, the only reason why we don't see many post ups, its because it is far less efficient offense, guys did it cause they didnt have this figured out yet. Brook Lopez came into a league as post big, you think he just forgot how to play in the post? No, he just doesnt need to do that, cause its a bad shot and he eould clog the paint. There are players who are great in a post, but generally it is the easiest way to play, it was always made for people who didnt have face up handling.

[C3H6N6O6]

Coaches are asking only the most efficient post players to play in the post because post play has never been very efficient.

In playoffs it becomes even harder to play in the post unless you are a great passer. This is a big difference between Embiid and Jokic. Jokic impacts the game more by playing in the post because of his passing. It also is the reason it is not that easy to double Jokic like it is when it comes to Embiid who takes a little while to realize which pass to make.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Whether they are from picks or not, the volume of 3-point attempts makes basketball more predictable than ever...
But there is one 3-point shooter who always looks entertaining... Anthony Edwards is mostly shooting 3s off the dribble and its hard to predict exactly when he'll shoot, because he likes to pretend that he's about to drive a lot. Plus his shooting motion is sexciting!

what does "predictable" mean, for you?
I can definitely predict that teams will try to put the ball in the basket while preventing the opponent to do the same.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Whether they are from picks or not, the volume of 3-point attempts makes basketball more predictable than ever...
But there is one 3-point shooter who always looks entertaining... Anthony Edwards is mostly shooting 3s off the dribble and its hard to predict exactly when he'll shoot, because he likes to pretend that he's about to drive a lot. Plus his shooting motion is sexciting!

Thinking Basketball already killed this narrative. The amount of 3s is due to the fact that spot up shots used to be long 2s are now 3-point shots. The amount of shots taken in the paint has remained the same.

You are essentially arguing that long 2s are fun and unpredictable, while shooting a slightly longer 3s is boring and predictable.

(BTW, Today’s players also make their 3s at a higher% than ‘90s and ‘00s players made long 2s)

The “too many 3s” argument has been debunked. “Too many PnRs” has been debunked. Do you have any actual real criticisms?

LOL, the fact that players started sucking at posting up, mi range and long 2’s starting in the mid 90’s is the reason why the NBA had to change a bunch of rules to make the modern AAU babies seem better than they actually are!

The physicality that was part of the game since it started has always been cryptonite for finesse players who want to beat defenses with athleticism and illegal dribbles.

When you think about EVERY rule that has been created since the mid 90’s for the sole purpose of enhance offense and offensive players in general is really no surprise that you got these flag basketball NBA with no physicality and more importantly NO RIVALRIES to speak of.

Think about it, today’s modern soft nerds would say this is “the wrong way to play basketball”

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYSm9obiBwYXhzb24gMTk5MSA1IGZvciA1

A bunch of guys in todays NBE would be better served shooting 15-18 footers or posting up rather than launching 25 foot bricks but because the league wants to market themselves to the Euro and Chinese markets which have always preferred this soft as tissue paper style then this is pretty much what you’re gonna get for the foreseeable future.

These are another two guys who todays nerds would prefer shooting 10-11 3’a a game:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUcZG9taW5pcXVlIHdpbGtpbnMgaGlnaGxpZ2h0cw%3D%3D

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYamFtZXMgd29ydGh5IGNhcmVlciBoaWdo

where is this coming from?
they changes the rules in 2002 because the game was awfully stale,