2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[MartinToVaught]

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I feel like I'm taking crazy pills every year when this discourse comes up. The All-Star Game has always been a joke, you can go all the way back to the '60s and find final scores like 153-131 or 150-130 even back then. Chuck himself played in many an ASG with similar no-defense final scores. It's never been treated like Game 7 of the Finals and never will be, it's just another excuse for people to whine about the league, and a silly one when there are so many more legitimate things to complain about.

To be fair, 1960s AS games at least looked like real basketball games.

I agree that whining about AS weekend is silly though.

What annoys me the most is when people start saying the ASG should decide homecourt advantage in the Finals. The MLB tried doing exactly that and it was universally hated, and rightfully so. Nobody liked that some random player from the Pirates could potentially swing the outcome of rhe World Series months in advance during an otherwise meaningless exhibition game. It wouldn't be any different in basketball.

All-star games are just oudated nowadays when we have instant access to any game we want to watch and don't need a special event to see all the league's stars. There's nothing that can be done to fix them in any sport because they're an idea that's long since outlived its usefulness.

[Fadeaway_J]

I feel like with the way the game is now, it's hard to defend at an even passable level without the kind of effort that makes no sense in an exhibition game. That makes the scores look even crazier than before, which causes the usual suspects to complain about the game as if it really means something.

[tone wone]

I feel like with the way the game is now, it's hard to defend at an even passable level without the kind of effort that makes no sense in an exhibition game. That makes the scores look even crazier than before, which causes the usual suspects to complain about the game as if it really means something.

Right. 3pt shooting combined with the natural pace makes these kinds of games hard to stay competitive. In actual games that count you see how quickly a game can get out of hand just by one team being cold or hot from 3 for a half.

It's funny because I think the changes they've done to the format have all been positive. From having the captains draft their roster (2018) to the Elam-Ending (2020) to even now with breaking it down to a mini tournament. I've liked all of them.

The internet is a really negative place. A lot of the league's energy is online. Thats how they find themselves in this constant loop of negativity. Operation Touch Grass for 2025 is needed. Shift some of it's energy offline

[falcolombardi]

I feel like with the way the game is now, it's hard to defend at an even passable level without the kind of effort that makes no sense in an exhibition game. That makes the scores look even crazier than before, which causes the usual suspects to complain about the game as if it really means something.

Right. 3pt shooting combined with the natural pace makes these kinds of games hard to stay competitive. In actual games that count you see how quickly a game can get out of hand just by one team being cold or hot from 3 for a half.

It's funny because I think the changes they've done to the format have all been positive. From having the captains draft their roster (2018) to the Elam-Ending (2020) to even now with breaking it down to a mini tournament. I've liked all of them.

The internet is a really negative place. A lot of the league's energy is online. Thats how they find themselves in this constant loop of negativity. Operation Touch Grass for 2025 is needed. Shift some of it's energy offline

They need to look in the mirror of how espn and co talk the nba in like, lets say, their latinamerican channels vs how they treat it in usa itself

Latinamerican espn announces nba like the huge deal it actually is, it adds "the best basketball league in the world" literally every time they can in their ads, they do content hyping up the teams and stars

A league like the nfl runs a tight ship in who gets to show their product and how they get to do it. Amd while nfl is bigger, nba is not some tiny grassroots league that depends on **** SAS or inside the nba to drive ratings

[sp6r=underrated]

Am I cynical for thinking the Mavs know Davis is done for the year but don't want to announce it?

[rk2023]

Am I cynical for thinking the Mavs know Davis is done for the year but don't want to announce it?

That could be the case, but I don’t know if he’s done for the year. What I do reckon could be the case is that they are waiting for his re-evaluation date to post P/R of (hopefully) a return.

[parsnips33]

Ben Taylor Toumani Camara video let's gooooo

Always come away impressed by this guy when we play Portland

[penbeast0]

I feel like with the way the game is now, it's hard to defend at an even passable level without the kind of effort that makes no sense in an exhibition game. That makes the scores look even crazier than before, which causes the usual suspects to complain about the game as if it really means something.

Right. 3pt shooting combined with the natural pace makes these kinds of games hard to stay competitive. In actual games that count you see how quickly a game can get out of hand just by one team being cold or hot from 3 for a half.

It's funny because I think the changes they've done to the format have all been positive. From having the captains draft their roster (2018) to the Elam-Ending (2020) to even now with breaking it down to a mini tournament. I've liked all of them.

The internet is a really negative place. A lot of the league's energy is online. Thats how they find themselves in this constant loop of negativity. Operation Touch Grass for 2025 is needed. Shift some of it's energy offline

I don't think we want the NBA players touching so much grass. Even where it's legal it's still not a good public look.

I'd like playing in the All-Star game to be an automatic contract bonus in the standard player contract. Then have the 5 top players in East and West picked by vote of ticket buyers at games (can print the voting right on the back of the ticket and have them turn them in on the way out) rather than by internet voters or people who only stream or watch on TV. For the rest of the squad, have each fanbase's vote that didn't get one of the 5 starting spots calculated separately for their own players so that each franchise has one player (two if two or more get voted from the same squad). It becomes more of an honor that way and the contract bonus gives more incentive for stars to be nice to fans at games if they want their votes.

[AEnigma]

Have the 5 top players in East and West picked by vote of ticket buyers at games (can print the voting right on the back of the ticket and have them turn them in on the way out) rather than by internet voters or people who only stream or watch on TV.

This is unfair to Giannis.

(The concept is nice, but the application is much more annoying and difficult for something that would not produce any clear improvement from how starters are currently selected.)

[penbeast0]

Have the 5 top players in East and West picked by vote of ticket buyers at games (can print the voting right on the back of the ticket and have them turn them in on the way out) rather than by internet voters or people who only stream or watch on TV.

This is unfair to Giannis.

(The concept is nice, but the application is much more annoying and difficult for something that would not produce any clear improvement from how starters are currently selected.)

Why Giannis particularly?

The guys it hurts are the second best players on good teams letting teams like the Wizards where the best player is someone like Jordan Poole or Bilal Coulibaly who are pretty undeserving instead of a guy like Rudy Gobert from the T-Wolves who probably is. So you won't get the best 30 players in the league out there. But hopefully you get more of the idea that the players should be ambassadors to the fans.

For example, growing up a Baltimore/Washington Bullets fan, Elvin Hayes was probably seen around the league as more of an All-Star player than Wes Unseld because of his scoring. But, Hayes was not a guy who went out of his way to sign autographs or do community events while Unseld was. So while a league wide vote would probably favor Hayes, a live fan Washington vote would probably favor Unseld.

[AEnigma]

Have the 5 top players in East and West picked by vote of ticket buyers at games (can print the voting right on the back of the ticket and have them turn them in on the way out) rather than by internet voters or people who only stream or watch on TV.

This is unfair to Giannis.

(The concept is nice, but the application is much more annoying and difficult for something that would not produce any clear improvement from how starters are currently selected.)

Why Giannis particularly?

Joke about fans struggling to spell his name.

The guys it hurts are the second best players on good teams letting teams like the Wizards where the best player is someone like Jordan Poole or Bilal Coulibaly who are pretty undeserving instead of a guy like Rudy Gobert from the T-Wolves who probably is. So you won't get the best 30 players in the league out there. But hopefully you get more of the idea that the players should be ambassadors to the fans.

For example, growing up a Baltimore/Washington Bullets fan, Elvin Hayes was probably seen around the league as more of an All-Star player than Wes Unseld because of his scoring. But, Hayes was not a guy who went out of his way to sign autographs or do community events while Unseld was. So while a league wide vote would probably favor Hayes, a live fan Washington vote would probably favor Unseld.

Yeah, I am not seeing that hypothetical reversal as an improvement for the league itself. If anything, that seems likely to hurt fanbases: do you want your best player leaving the team because a worse player is more liked by local fans?

I understand the NBA desperately wants to maintain the unique cultural value of its all-star weekend (in contrast to the comparative afterthoughts of the NFL/MLB/NHL), but this year was actively ruined in a way far beyond the damage from NBA stars being just as reluctant to give maximum effort in an exhibition game as the stars of every other major league are. Friday was fine. Saturday probably suffered views because of the Canada/U.S. hockey game, but the events themselves were also fine (even if the skills competition could stand to be replaced by something else). And Sunday could have been alright but was instead irreparably derailed by inept and tone-deaf production actively spiting the players it was supposed to be celebrating (which is why I have mixed feelings on a committed “U.S. versus the World” format: international stars are already antagonised by a media environment mired in 1990s neoteny).

[Texas Chuck]

Am I cynical for thinking the Mavs know Davis is done for the year but don't want to announce it?

Nope. It seems like the most likely explanation after they trashed Luka's availability on the way out. They don't have the guts to admit they traded for a bigger health risk and he lasted all of one half.

Grow a pair, Dallas.

[sp6r=underrated]

But companies make stupid decisions all the time. And I think that is what this is. Ownership ordered the basketball people to trade him by date X and they did it. I doubt the GM really believes his talking points.

I used to think the owner was the primary driver of the trade and they put heavy pressure to get Luka off the team. Nico was a yes man and decided to go for a player he really admired.

Based on the early reporting I no longer believe the above. I now lean towards this trade being from the basketball people and specifically Nico. He has a really narrow vision for what a best player on title team should look like and Luka doesn't meet it.

He sincerely believed Luka had peaked already, was set for a swift decline and sincerely believed Davis was a level up or a much better fit for this roster. Ownership either gave him the keys to the kingdom ala Riley in Miami or ownership is very deferential so when he proposed the trade they weren't inclined to fight back

IF the reporting changes i'll readress it but that is where I lean now.

[Special_Puppy]

But companies make stupid decisions all the time. And I think that is what this is. Ownership ordered the basketball people to trade him by date X and they did it. I doubt the GM really believes his talking points.

I used to think the owner was the primary driver of the trade and they put heavy pressure to get Luka off the team. Nico was a yes man and decided to go for a player he really admired.

Based on the early reporting I no longer believe the above. I now lean towards this trade being from the basketball people and specifically Nico. He has a really narrow vision for what a best player on title team should look like and Luka doesn't meet it.

He sincerely believed Luka had peaked already, was set for a swift decline and sincerely believed Davis was a level up or a much better fit for this roster. Ownership either gave him the keys to the kingdom ala Riley in Miami or ownership is very deferential so when he proposed the trade they weren't inclined to fight back

IF the reporting changes i'll readress it but that is where I lean now.

My understanding is that ownership didn't know much about basketball so they weren't comfortable pushing back against Nico

[sp6r=underrated]

But companies make stupid decisions all the time. And I think that is what this is. Ownership ordered the basketball people to trade him by date X and they did it. I doubt the GM really believes his talking points.

I used to think the owner was the primary driver of the trade and they put heavy pressure to get Luka off the team. Nico was a yes man and decided to go for a player he really admired.

Based on the early reporting I no longer believe the above. I now lean towards this trade being from the basketball people and specifically Nico. He has a really narrow vision for what a best player on title team should look like and Luka doesn't meet it.

He sincerely believed Luka had peaked already, was set for a swift decline and sincerely believed Davis was a level up or a much better fit for this roster. Ownership either gave him the keys to the kingdom ala Riley in Miami or ownership is very deferential so when he proposed the trade they weren't inclined to fight back

IF the reporting changes i'll readress it but that is where I lean now.

My understanding is that ownership didn't know much about basketball so they weren't comfortable pushing back against Nico

"I can say one thing for sure: Whether or not history will ultimately judge this as a smart trade, they did what they thought was in the best interest of their organization," Silver said. "I have absolutely no knowledge or belief there were any ulterior motives, no doubt in my mind that the Dumont-Adelson families bought that team to keep it in Dallas. I have no doubt whatsoever that they're committed to the long-term success of that franchise."

"Time will tell whether it was a smart trade," Silver said. "But they should believe in their organization."

You know a trade sucks when a Commissioner feels the need to make a statement like the one above.

[jalengreen]

The ownership theories never really made much sense to me. Seemed far more likely that Nico knew he had a green light to do what he wanted because the ownership doesn't care about basketball, and what he wanted was getting rid of Luka. "You guys okay with me trading Doncic?" "Who?" "Great, thanks"

Engelmann (guy who created RPM) wrote an article giving his perspective as somebody who worked with the Mavs and overlapped with Nico for a year, and he said that Nico surrounded himself with "yes men". Made it seem like he probably wasn't in a position to face much constructive scrutiny from any other Mavs executives.

Engelmann also pointed to the idea that Luka's impact was overstated by his box score impact, and that this was backed up by the Mavs' internal models (RAPM variants I'm assuming) which led for Engelmann to pitch the idea of trading Luka while he was with the team. Along with other concerns like how easy it is to build a team around him or his commitment to defense. Obviously didn't happen then and probably never could have under Cuban, but there may have been brewing dissatisfaction with Luka among the higher ups.

[sp6r=underrated]

The ownership theories never really made much sense to me. Seemed far more likely that Nico knew he had a green light to do what he wanted because the ownership doesn't care about basketball, and what he wanted was getting rid of Luka. "You guys okay with me trading Doncic?" "Who?" "Great, thanks"

.

Just going to outline why I used to believe this came from ownership. I never thought this was some weird move to help ship the team to Las Vegas. Nor did I think this was some Commissioner-Owner deal to help LA. I thought that was nutty and still do.

1. Almost everyone who knows basketball regards this as a really bad trade from a basketball perspective.
2. It is extremely rare for a superstar to be traded, even if his attitude is beyond awful.
3. The ownership is new.
4. In sports and non-sports transaction involving assets as valuable as Luka reach the ownership box.
5. The team made finals last year.
6. Professional gms would know a trade like this would hurt their reputation.

Give that I assumed the owner didn't want to pay Luka and decided to play GM. I had a hard time believing a professional GM would regard trading Luka as the right idea. And if you're gonna trade Luka trade him for an older player. It just didn't make any basketball sense to me so I assumed it was a business/ego decision from the owner with Nico being the fall guy.

One reason I no longer believe the theory is that Nico is leaking about death threats but he isn't leaking any info about him opposing the trade. If this came from the owner he would be leaking like a sleeve and he just isn't doing so.

Amazingly enough nico this was a good idea.

[jalengreen]

The ownership theories never really made much sense to me. Seemed far more likely that Nico knew he had a green light to do what he wanted because the ownership doesn't care about basketball, and what he wanted was getting rid of Luka. "You guys okay with me trading Doncic?" "Who?" "Great, thanks"

.

Just going to outline why I used to believe this came from ownership. I never thought this was some weird move to help ship the team to Las Vegas. Nor did I think this was some Commissioner-Owner deal to help LA. I thought that was nutty and still do.

1. Almost everyone who knows basketball regards this as a really bad trade from a basketball perspective.
2. It is extremely rare for a superstar to be traded, even if his attitude is beyond awful.
3. The ownership is new.
4. In sports and non-sports transaction involving assets as valuable as Luka reach the ownership box.
5. The team made finals last year.
6. Professional gms would know a trade like this would hurt their reputation.

Give that I assumed the owner didn't want to pay Luka and decided to play GM. I had a hard time believing a professional GM would regard trading Luka as the right idea. And if you're gonna trade Luka trade him for an older player. It just didn't make any basketball sense to me so I assumed it was a business/ego decision from the owner with Nico being the fall guy.

One reason I no longer believe the theory is that Nico is leaking about death threats but he isn't leaking any info about him opposing the trade. If this came from the owner he would be leaking like a sleeve and he just isn't doing so.

Amazingly enough nico this was a good idea.

I just don't see why Nico would have been a willing fall guy so it never made sense to me. If you didn't want to trade Luka and your ownership is forcing you to, then you would surely resign unless you were just desperate to hold onto a GM job no matter what, but I don't think that described Nico - he had a pretty good reputation before this trade. Like the 6th point you mentioned: as a GM, you'd take a reputation hit, why not just resign and avoid that?

And also, nothing in this ownership angle attempts to explain why they'd take a bad return, does it? Like, why would the ownership specifically want Anthony Davis? And not try to shop Luka around?

[rk2023]

Ben Taylor Toumani Camara video let's gooooo

Always come away impressed by this guy when we play Portland

Ended up as the best player in the Nurkic and Ayton trade XD

[jalengreen]

Damn Wemby out for season, that's such a bummer. Will miss out on All-NBA First Team and Defensive Player of the Year. Not sure who the DPOY frontrunner is now?

Brandon Ingram had the same thing and came back fine so I don't think this should be a long term concern. Could honestly end up working out in the Spurs' favor long term if they end up with another top draft pick (tho maybe Fox prevents that)