Eddie Johnson tries to agree with Draymond and gets brutally fact-checked

[SkyBill40]

What the statistics show don't really seem to pass the eye test. And, to some degree, as far as "boring" is concerned... I'm having difficulty disagreeing with Green. Your mileage may vary, but seeing the game in this current state isn't all that interesting to me. While it does have some exciting times here and there, the amount of chucking is absurd.

True Shooting is as high as its even been. There's less chucking than ever before

I've never put that much value into the "true shooting" percentage statistic. There's still a boatload of chucking going on, be it good shots being taken and falling or awful ones that make no sense and have little chance of dropping, and I don't expect that to change. Seeing the game has shifted focus to being more three ball centric, I can see more guys working on their shot and that one in particular than before. Even still, it doesn't mean that three point attempts are being taken by better percentage shooters and, in most cases, it's guys who really don't have much business lofting those things up that account for the chucking.

[Tim Lehrbach]

"Fact-checking" is such low testosterone behavior. It's like you're that stereotype of the person who calls out someone's spelling mistake.

The overall statistics could say that PnR's are down across the board, but that particular person's experience might have been different to the point where he felt he needed to share it openly. People who feel the need to "dunk" on others in open forums probably haven't been **** by their wives in years.

Someday, you will be embarrassed that you were like this.

You were an internet forum moderator. Nothing I do will ever be as embarrassing.

Oh, believe me, I am mortified by many things I've said and done.

[Special_Puppy]

What the statistics show don't really seem to pass the eye test. And, to some degree, as far as "boring" is concerned... I'm having difficulty disagreeing with Green. Your mileage may vary, but seeing the game in this current state isn't all that interesting to me. While it does have some exciting times here and there, the amount of chucking is absurd.

True Shooting is as high as its even been. There's less chucking than ever before

I've never put that much value into the "true shooting" percentage statistic. There's still a boatload of chucking going on, be it good shots being taken and falling or awful ones that make no sense and have little chance of dropping, and I don't expect that to change. Seeing the game has shifted focus to being more three ball centric, I can see more guys working on their shot and that one in particular than before. Even still, it doesn't mean that three point attempts are being taken by better percentage shooters and, in most cases, it's guys who really don't have much business lofting those things up that account for the chucking.

What's the evidence that "chucking" is as high as ever? The available evidence suggests that the opposite is the case

[Bergmaniac]

Another thing that is absolutely lost today is the art of the post game... for both bigs and fundamental guards or wings. Some do it still of course and they are the stars, but back then role players were allowed to use up 4 second or more trying to make moves down low...

And they sucked at it

So teams stopped doing it

It's just wild to me that there are people who actually miss watching mediocre post players posting up a lot, this was some ugly basketball and so often took forever to set up and execute. I'd take the most blatant 3 point chucking any day of the week over watching possession after possession where a player fights for post position for 6-7 seconds, then post up for a few seconds more, and then (usually) brick a contested layup or a fadeaway. That wasn't a good basketball from an efficiency standpoint and it sure wasn't fun to watch for me. I love watching post play when it's done by players who are actually good at it but the mentality of the earlier eras that you have to use some possessions for this even though you don't have the personnel for it is something I don't miss at all.

[SkyBill40]

True Shooting is as high as its even been. There's less chucking than ever before

I've never put that much value into the "true shooting" percentage statistic. There's still a boatload of chucking going on, be it good shots being taken and falling or awful ones that make no sense and have little chance of dropping, and I don't expect that to change. Seeing the game has shifted focus to being more three ball centric, I can see more guys working on their shot and that one in particular than before. Even still, it doesn't mean that three point attempts are being taken by better percentage shooters and, in most cases, it's guys who really don't have much business lofting those things up that account for the chucking.

What's the evidence that "chucking" is as high as ever? The available evidence suggests that the opposite is the case

Visual. Watch some games. Compare the amount of threes being taken in general to say five to ten years ago. The volume of three pointers being taken has exploded since Curry came into the league and people wanted to suddenly (and laughably) feel like they could replicate his success.

There are, on average, 37.5 3pFG attempts per game as a league average this season with 13.4 actually being made; going back five seasons, that number was 34.1 with 12.2 made; going back another five, that figure was 22.4 and 7.8.

If that's not chucking at a high volume, I don't know what is. It also indicates a much higher reliance on baskets of that type, even if their success ratio isn't all that great.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Think looking at averages is looking at it the wrong way. Should be looking at the averages of stars. Players like Joker, Luka, LeBron and Curry pick and roll is the cheat code come playoff team. Sure those players can do other great things but pick and roll attack is consistent across all high level stars.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I've never put that much value into the "true shooting" percentage statistic. There's still a boatload of chucking going on, be it good shots being taken and falling or awful ones that make no sense and have little chance of dropping, and I don't expect that to change. Seeing the game has shifted focus to being more three ball centric, I can see more guys working on their shot and that one in particular than before. Even still, it doesn't mean that three point attempts are being taken by better percentage shooters and, in most cases, it's guys who really don't have much business lofting those things up that account for the chucking.

What's the evidence that "chucking" is as high as ever? The available evidence suggests that the opposite is the case

Visual. Watch some games. Compare the amount of threes being taken in general to say five to ten years ago. The volume of three pointers being taken has exploded since Curry came into the league and people wanted to suddenly (and laughably) feel like they could replicate his success.

There are, on average, 37.5 3pFG attempts per game as a league average this season with 13.4 actually being made; going back five seasons, that number was 34.1 with 12.2 made; going back another five, that figure was 22.4 and 7.8.

If that's not chucking at a high volume, I don't know what is. It also indicates a much higher reliance on baskets of that type, even if their success ratio isn't all that great.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

define "chucking" because I am not following.

[Special_Puppy]

What's the evidence that "chucking" is as high as ever? The available evidence suggests that the opposite is the case

Visual. Watch some games. Compare the amount of threes being taken in general to say five to ten years ago. The volume of three pointers being taken has exploded since Curry came into the league and people wanted to suddenly (and laughably) feel like they could replicate his success.

There are, on average, 37.5 3pFG attempts per game as a league average this season with 13.4 actually being made; going back five seasons, that number was 34.1 with 12.2 made; going back another five, that figure was 22.4 and 7.8.

If that's not chucking at a high volume, I don't know what is. It also indicates a much higher reliance on baskets of that type, even if their success ratio isn't all that great.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

define "chucking" because I am not following.

Right. I was under the impression that "chucking" was players firing up low quality shots and converting them at a bad rate.

[SkyBill40]

What's the evidence that "chucking" is as high as ever? The available evidence suggests that the opposite is the case

Visual. Watch some games. Compare the amount of threes being taken in general to say five to ten years ago. The volume of three pointers being taken has exploded since Curry came into the league and people wanted to suddenly (and laughably) feel like they could replicate his success.

There are, on average, 37.5 3pFG attempts per game as a league average this season with 13.4 actually being made; going back five seasons, that number was 34.1 with 12.2 made; going back another five, that figure was 22.4 and 7.8.

If that's not chucking at a high volume, I don't know what is. It also indicates a much higher reliance on baskets of that type, even if their success ratio isn't all that great.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

define "chucking" because I am not following.

Chucking, as in lots of attempts, be they good or (mostly) bad. And I'm not necessarily adding in half court or further heaves as the clock is expiring. Your opinion or definition of what constitutes "chucking" may vary.

Not everybody on the court needs to take three point shots.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Visual. Watch some games. Compare the amount of threes being taken in general to say five to ten years ago. The volume of three pointers being taken has exploded since Curry came into the league and people wanted to suddenly (and laughably) feel like they could replicate his success.

There are, on average, 37.5 3pFG attempts per game as a league average this season with 13.4 actually being made; going back five seasons, that number was 34.1 with 12.2 made; going back another five, that figure was 22.4 and 7.8.

If that's not chucking at a high volume, I don't know what is. It also indicates a much higher reliance on baskets of that type, even if their success ratio isn't all that great.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

define "chucking" because I am not following.

Chucking, as in lots of attempts, be they good or (mostly) bad. And I'm not necessarily adding in half court or further heaves as the clock is expiring. Your opinion or definition of what constitutes "chucking" may vary.

Not everybody on the court needs to take three point shots.

you mean shots from three or any shot? Because it seema to me you're just saying they shoot too much from three, but I am not clear what "too much" ia supposed to mean in this context.
To the point they are hurting the team? Or based on your personal taste?

[LockoutSeason]

Visual. Watch some games. Compare the amount of threes being taken in general to say five to ten years ago. The volume of three pointers being taken has exploded since Curry came into the league and people wanted to suddenly (and laughably) feel like they could replicate his success.

There are, on average, 37.5 3pFG attempts per game as a league average this season with 13.4 actually being made; going back five seasons, that number was 34.1 with 12.2 made; going back another five, that figure was 22.4 and 7.8.

If that's not chucking at a high volume, I don't know what is. It also indicates a much higher reliance on baskets of that type, even if their success ratio isn't all that great.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

define "chucking" because I am not following.

Chucking, as in lots of attempts, be they good or (mostly) bad. And I'm not necessarily adding in half court or further heaves as the clock is expiring. Your opinion or definition of what constitutes "chucking" may vary.

Not everybody on the court needs to take three point shots.

Chucking has nothing to do with the amount of attempts.

Shooting 2/20 is chucking

Shooting 14/20 isn’t chucking

Same amount of attempts, except one is chucking and one isn’t.

Players nowadays are more efficient than ever and see better at shooting so you’re trying to redefine “chucking” as just taking a lot of shots.

[SkyBill40]

define "chucking" because I am not following.

Chucking, as in lots of attempts, be they good or (mostly) bad. And I'm not necessarily adding in half court or further heaves as the clock is expiring. Your opinion or definition of what constitutes "chucking" may vary.

Not everybody on the court needs to take three point shots.

you mean shots from three or any shot? Because it seema to me you're just saying they shoot too much from three, but I am not clear what "too much" ia supposed to mean in this context.
To the point they are hurting the team? Or based on your personal taste?

I was referencing three point attempts specifically, although two point shot attempts also being bad is an equally annoying thing. And they are, in many instances, hurtful to the team as it leads to a blown possession and also personally frustrating to watch.

[SkyBill40]

define "chucking" because I am not following.

Chucking, as in lots of attempts, be they good or (mostly) bad. And I'm not necessarily adding in half court or further heaves as the clock is expiring. Your opinion or definition of what constitutes "chucking" may vary.

Not everybody on the court needs to take three point shots.

Chucking has nothing to do with the amount of attempts.

Shooting 2/20 is chucking

Shooting 14/20 isn’t chucking

Same amount of attempts, except one is chucking and one isn’t.

Players nowadays are more efficient than ever and see better at shooting so you’re trying to redefine “chucking” as just taking a lot of shots.

Again, it's a personal thing to me and I said as much. I am not trying to "redefine" anything as that's your reach. I didn't ask nor expect you to agree, either. It's a purely subjective thing. The sooner you get to accepting that for precisely what it is, the better off you'll be.

In your example, yeah, there's a lot of attempts taken and one is glaringly more efficient than the other. But since I'm talking about three point shots, when was the last time someone shot 14/20 from range? And how often does that happen? Chucking isn't mutually exclusive here as attempts of any kind in a high volume but low completion can be a detriment to the game in general.

[DOT]

Chucking isn't mutually exclusive here as attempts of any kind in a high volume but low completion can be a detriment to the game in general.

Field goal percentages haven't really changed since the 90s

Since 2018 it's fluctuated between 46% and 48%, between 1991 and 2000 it fluctuated between 44% and 48%

So by your own definition of high volume but low completion, there's no more chucking now than there was in the 90s. Just going by raw makes per attempts not factoring in the 3pt line, shots are going in at about the same rate as they used to.

[Black star]

Saying the end of a complex set of actions is all that matters is pretty wild. It ignores everything the defense does adn everything they offense is trying to do. It's leaving 95% of what's happening out of the equation.

I agree with you it's not all that matters. In the same way that all the off ball movement and screens that happen before the shot goes up isn't all that matters.

So just pointing at the increase in complexity of one part of the game doesn't invalidate the fact that another part of the game is getting simpler. Two things can be happening from different perspectives

No...this is just stupid. The game is 48 minutes. The determination of complexity it the entirety of the 48 minutes. The point Ben made was that people are only looking at one point and not what leads to it. He wasn't saying we should ignore EITHER. But the game has always mostly been long jumpers and shots in the paint. That's just the nature of the game.

Multiple factors go into that complexity. In the video he is putting the emphasis on all the off ball movements and actions factor. You are also putting the emphasis on all the off ball movements and actions. Which misses the point that other parts of the game also contribute significantly to the game's complexity such as a shot variety factor. And if you can't understand that point then we are talking in circles

[SkyBill40]

Chucking isn't mutually exclusive here as attempts of any kind in a high volume but low completion can be a detriment to the game in general.

Field goal percentages haven't really changed since the 90s

Since 2018 it's fluctuated between 46% and 48%, between 1991 and 2000 it fluctuated between 44% and 48%

So by your own definition of high volume but low completion, there's no more chucking now than there was in the 90s. Just going by raw makes per attempts not factoring in the 3pt line, shots are going in at about the same rate as they used to.

And that's great... except I was focusing strictly on 3pFGA and not attempts in general since that's what the person who started the conversation with me wanted to home in on.

[DOT]

Chucking isn't mutually exclusive here as attempts of any kind in a high volume but low completion can be a detriment to the game in general.

Field goal percentages haven't really changed since the 90s

Since 2018 it's fluctuated between 46% and 48%, between 1991 and 2000 it fluctuated between 44% and 48%

So by your own definition of high volume but low completion, there's no more chucking now than there was in the 90s. Just going by raw makes per attempts not factoring in the 3pt line, shots are going in at about the same rate as they used to.

And that's great... except I was focusing strictly on 3pFGA and not attempts in general.

Right, because if we point out that you're seeing the same ratio of makes to misses in general, that kinda destroys your entire argument.

[Black star]

This should be required watching for anyone complaining about today's game being too simple:

Watch on YouTube

This has big "the economy is fine and all you plebians just need to look at all our statistics about how good the economy is instead of complaining about costs" energy.

Yes the game is simpler when the majority of actions result in a three or a lay up attempt. You can't just point to more complex off ball actions and say "everybody has to start paying attention to that now and use that to decide if its interesting" because that's not the metric people watching use to determine whether the gameplay is simple or not.

not relying on hard data enough is what is leasing to this disaster, in the US and WW

That's funny because I would say not engaging with people's real complaints is what led to the disaster but you're probably right. If they had just lectured harder at people things would have worked out

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Chucking, as in lots of attempts, be they good or (mostly) bad. And I'm not necessarily adding in half court or further heaves as the clock is expiring. Your opinion or definition of what constitutes "chucking" may vary.

Not everybody on the court needs to take three point shots.

you mean shots from three or any shot? Because it seema to me you're just saying they shoot too much from three, but I am not clear what "too much" ia supposed to mean in this context.
To the point they are hurting the team? Or based on your personal taste?

I was referencing three point attempts specifically, although two point shot attempts also being bad is an equally annoying thing. And they are, in many instances, hurtful to the team as it leads to a blown possession and also personally frustrating to watch.

they are not if you make them efficiently, that's the whole point of the discussion!

[SkyBill40]

Field goal percentages haven't really changed since the 90s

Since 2018 it's fluctuated between 46% and 48%, between 1991 and 2000 it fluctuated between 44% and 48%

So by your own definition of high volume but low completion, there's no more chucking now than there was in the 90s. Just going by raw makes per attempts not factoring in the 3pt line, shots are going in at about the same rate as they used to.

And that's great... except I was focusing strictly on 3pFGA and not attempts in general.

Right, because if we point out that you're seeing the same ratio of makes to misses in general, that kinda destroys your entire argument.

Argument wasn't ever about makes. It was about the increased volume of said shots having been taken. Stop trying to broaden the discussion beyond the specific scope and focus on what is at hand here, shall we?

Three point percentage has hovered around 35% since the early 90's to now. Not what I'd call horribly efficient, but I guess some will see it that way.