RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[DOT]

TL;DR: Jordan isn't the GOAT because he never lost in the Finals. It's because once he learned how to win titles...he never lost a playoff series again.*[/b]

(That 1995 return at season's end was weird. No One really counts 45 Jordan coming back after 2 years away against him. That playoff run was basically his pre-season.)

"If you ignore the exceptions, there are no exceptions"

Jordan's the GOAT because he was never the reason his team lost. LeBron was the reason his team lost once. That's really all the difference is. Pretty close 1A-1B imo. It was 1A-1B-1C with Kareem for a while, but once LeBron got the scoring title, Kareem had no real argument

Y'all just mythologizing MJ as someone who had no faults as a player and is untouchable is doing too much.

[Jamaaliver]

"He never lost a playoff series once he learned how to win. Expect for that time he did lose a playoff series. But we don't count that one because he decided to quit for 1.5 years."

Strong mental gymnastics from the MJ mythologists

I'll say it again for the cool kids in the back.

Beginning in Nov of 1990: when Michael Jordan played a full season of NBA basketball -- he didn't lose a single playoff series.



In a league with 28+ teams, that's pretty f***ing impressive.

[DOT]

"He never lost a playoff series once he learned how to win. Expect for that time he did lose a playoff series. But we don't count that one because he decided to quit for 1.5 years."

Strong mental gymnastics from the MJ mythologists

I'll say it again for the cool kids in the back.

Beginning in Nov of 1990: when Michael Jordan played a full season of NBA basketball -- he didn't lose a single playoff series.



In a league with 28+ teams, that's pretty f***ing impressive.

So if MJ had gone to the Finals in 1994 and/or 1995 and lost, it would have damaged his legacy?

[Jamaaliver]

Ring chasing by teaming up also didn't start until Lebron

In that regard, teaming up with other superstars and GM'ing your own teams also wasn't seen as a legitimate way to win until Lebron started doing it.

Nah, star players were trying, unsuccessfully, to team up as soon as Jordan's second retirement.

[ScrantonBulls]

"He never lost a playoff series once he learned how to win. Expect for that time he did lose a playoff series. But we don't count that one because he decided to quit for 1.5 years."

Strong mental gymnastics from the MJ mythologists

I'll say it again for the cool kids in the back.

Beginning in Nov of 1990: when Michael Jordan played a full season of NBA basketball -- he didn't lose a single playoff series.



In a league with 28+ teams, that's pretty f***ing impressive.

So if MJ had gone to the Finals in 1994 and/or 1995 and lost, it would have damaged his legacy?

Of course not. Those would be glowing achievements in their minds - especially 95 given that he only played a partial season. These are people that can find no fault in MJ. They give him credit for his teammates developing and all the credit for his teams winning. Just look at the guy you're responding to. Those Bulls teams didn't win because the players such as Pippen or Horace developed, or because they had the best coach, or simply because they had by far the most talented team in the league They won because "MJ learned how to win titles" The hero worshipping around MJ is second to none.

[Jamaaliver]

I'll say it again for the cool kids in the back.

Beginning in Nov of 1990: when Michael Jordan played a full season of NBA basketball -- he didn't lose a single playoff series.



In a league with 28+ teams, that's pretty f***ing impressive.

So if MJ had gone to the Finals in 1994 and/or 1995 and lost, it would have damaged his legacy?

That's a great question...probably so, TBH.

I mean, Kareem had 3 NCAA Titles, 6 NBA Titles 6 NBA MVPs and the all time scoring record at the end of his career. But Jordan was being elevated ahead of him with barely half of those accolades on his resume.

Because Jordan was dominant and...because we watched Kareem decline and become mortal before our eyes.



If Jordan starts losing multiple playoff series during the 1990s, he still among the All Time greats, but he wouldn't have been the consensus best player ever.

[DOT]

I'll say it again for the cool kids in the back.

Beginning in Nov of 1990: when Michael Jordan played a full season of NBA basketball -- he didn't lose a single playoff series.



In a league with 28+ teams, that's pretty f***ing impressive.

So if MJ had gone to the Finals in 1994 and/or 1995 and lost, it would have damaged his legacy?

That's a great question...probably so, TBH.

I mean, Kareem had 3 NCAA Titles, 6 NBA Titles 6 NBA MVPs and the all time scoring record at the end of his career. But Jordan was being elevated ahead of him with barely half of those accolades on his resume.

Because Jordan was dominant and...because we watched Kareem decline and become mortal before our eyes.



If Jordan starts losing multiple playoff series during the 1990s, he still among the All Time greats, but he wouldn't have been the consensus best player ever.

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

That's just kinda dumb. Not even kinda, that's just straight up a dumb opinion.

[Snakebites]

I'll say it again for the cool kids in the back.

Beginning in Nov of 1990: when Michael Jordan played a full season of NBA basketball -- he didn't lose a single playoff series.



In a league with 28+ teams, that's pretty f***ing impressive.

So if MJ had gone to the Finals in 1994 and/or 1995 and lost, it would have damaged his legacy?

That's a great question...probably so, TBH.

I mean, Kareem had 3 NCAA Titles, 6 NBA Titles 6 NBA MVPs and the all time scoring record at the end of his career. But Jordan was being elevated ahead of him with barely half of those accolades on his resume.

Because Jordan was dominant and...because we watched Kareem decline and become mortal before our eyes.



If Jordan starts losing multiple playoff series during the 1990s, he still among the All Time greats, but he wouldn't have been the consensus best player ever.

What does Jordan’s legacy look like if he had to run into the Splash Warriors four years in a row?

[Jamaaliver]

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

If Prime Jordan had lost multiple series to Prime Olajuwon in the playoffs...he's not the consensus greatest of all time.

Because he lost...in his prime.

That's not really controversial.

[Jamaaliver]

What does Jordan’s legacy look like if he had to run into the Splash Warriors four years in a row?

I have no idea.


Different eras.
Different rules.

[DOT]

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

If Prime Jordan had lost multiple series to Prime Olajuwon in the playoffs...he's not the consensus greatest of all time.

Because he lost...in his prime.

That's not really controversial.

See, this is why I hate hypotheticals

Cause dudes can just lie on them to win an argument, when you and I both know there's no way you'd be saying it would've been better for MJ to lose before making the Finals in those years had he gone to 8 straight and only won 6.

[ScrantonBulls]

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

If Prime Jordan had lost multiple series to Prime Olajuwon in the playoffs...he's not the consensus greatest of all time.

Because he lost...in his prime.

That's not really controversial.

See, this is why I hate hypotheticals

Cause dudes can just lie on them to win an argument, when you and I both know there's no way you'd be saying it would've been better for MJ to lose before making the Finals in those years had he gone to 8 straight and only won 6.

I mean, we know Jordan DID lose in 95. He lost before reaching the finals. But apparently we just ignore that because he quit for 1.5 years and only played a partial season? It makes no sense and shows the complete lack of logic that many MJ fans use when mythologizing him.

[Jamaaliver]

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

See, this is why I hate hypotheticals

You're literally the one who posed the hypothetical scenario....

[ScrantonBulls]

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

If Prime Jordan had lost multiple series to Prime Olajuwon in the playoffs...he's not the consensus greatest of all time.

Because he lost...in his prime.

That's not really controversial.

It's telling that you talk about basketball like it is an individual sport. It feels like you don't evaluate it as if it is a team sport...

[Jamaaliver]

I mean, we know Jordan DID lose in 95. He lost before reaching the finals. But apparently we just ignore that because he quit for 1.5 years and only played a partial season? It makes no sense and shows the complete lack of logic that many MJ fans use when mythologizing him.

It does if you were there.



MJ failed to be named an All Star in 1995. Why?
Because he showed up 3 weeks before the season ended.

MJ failed to be be named All NBA in 1995. Why?
Because he showed up 3 weeks before the season ended.

MJ failed to garner a single MVP vote in 1995. Why?
Because he showed up 3 weeks before the season ended.


The dude started playing basketball in Mid March and was done before Labor Memorial Day.

Even Shaq, whose Orlando Team knocked the Bulls out of those 1995 playoffs, *doesn't try to take much credit for it.



NOTE: I am NOT a Jordan fan.

[Jamaaliver]

It's telling that you talk about basketball like it is an individual sport. It feels like you evaluate it as if it is a team sport...

That's a fair point.

I've always thought pitchers and QBs took too much blame in baseball and football, respectively. I mean, they're only on the field for half of the game.

But in basketball, I think we've consistently seen that a single great player can carry an NBA team to the promised land.

Luka last season.
Jokic in 2023.
Giannis in 2021.
Steph in 2015.
Kawhi in 2019.
Lebron in 2007, 2015 and 2016.


If you remove that one player, those teams pretty quickly fall apart.

[ScrantonBulls]

I mean, we know Jordan DID lose in 95. He lost before reaching the finals. But apparently we just ignore that because he quit for 1.5 years and only played a partial season? It makes no sense and shows the complete lack of logic that many MJ fans use when mythologizing him.

It does if you were there.



MJ failed to be named an All Star in 1995. Why?
Because he showed up 3 weeks before the season ended.

MJ failed to be be named All NBA in 1995. Why?
Because he showed up 3 weeks before the season ended.

MJ failed to garner a single MVP vote in 1995. Why?
Because he showed up 3 weeks before the season ended.


The dude started playing basketball in Mid March and was done before Labor Memorial Day.

Even Shaq, whose Orlando Team knocked the Bulls out of those 1995 playoffs, *doesn't try to take much credit for it.



NOTE: I am NOT a Jordan fan.

He actually came back over a month before the season ended. Three weeks is wrong.

Anyway... So you pick and choose when to apply context. You'll blindly ignore context when looking at LeBron's finals record. He carried a sorry ass 2007 Cavs team as a 22 year old against the Spurs dynasty? Doesn't matter, lost. His best teammates were injured or he carried a sorry ass 2018 Cavs team against the stacked Warriors dynasty? Doesnt matter. Too lazy or biased to use context.

But MJ quits for 1.5 years and only plays a partial season? We just use context and strike it from the records! It's just lazy and illogical thinking.

[Snakebites]

What does Jordan’s legacy look like if he had to run into the Splash Warriors four years in a row?

I have no idea.


Different eras.
Different rules.

That’s kind of dodging the question. That Warriors team was way better than anything Jordan ever faced, and he had to face some version of it 4 straight seasons. Heck, so were the 2014 Spurs.

That was the point-it illustrates is that rings and overall playoff success are a dubious criteria.

By all means invoke “different eras different rules”.

Just know that there’s literally no argument on either side that can’t be nullified by that.

[michaelm]

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

If Prime Jordan had lost multiple series to Prime Olajuwon in the playoffs...he's not the consensus greatest of all time.

Because he lost...in his prime.

That's not really controversial.

It's telling that you talk about basketball like it is an individual sport. It feels like you don't evaluate it as if it is a team sport...

And yet you are a fan of an individual player who has bounced around teams mostly in pursuit of individual glory, although I do think he wanted to win titles for his home town, in a team sport apparently seeing no contradiction in same.

Your entire schtick is to quote selective individual stats and metrics in an attempt to make a case for LeBron while exalting Jordan’s team mates and demeaning LeBron’s, all the while taking Jordan partisans to task for not giving Jordan’s team mates and Pippen in particular enough credit. And talking of context you constantly bring up Jordan’s break between the 2 threepeats but ignore that this was after his father was murdered in a roadside shooting.

I actually agree Jordan’s teams were better, but this was after he realised /was persuaded he needed to take a more team approach involving a game plan which took the ball out of his hands to a degree, a choice LeBron has never made, and a significant reason why people consider Jordan to be so great. Given the way LeBron has assembled his teams since 2010 he doesn’t seem to even be familiar with the concept of team/ensemble play, much like some of his partisans such as you who would appear to consider assembling a team with good fit and playing a team game to be unfair/cheating. The 2014 Spurs and GSW teams which you and others bring up as tough opposition were teams which were assembled to have good fit and played team basketball. Kerr pretty much refrained from just running Curry/KD pick and roll all the time even though this was pretty much unstoppable because it was against his philosophy.

And if we are talking a team sport LeBron was rightly praised for bringing the Cavs their only title, but the only titles won by the Bulls were won by Jordan teams, except there were 6 of them.

[bledredwine]

So if MJ had gone to the Finals in 1994 and/or 1995 and lost, it would have damaged his legacy?

That's a great question...probably so, TBH.

I mean, Kareem had 3 NCAA Titles, 6 NBA Titles 6 NBA MVPs and the all time scoring record at the end of his career. But Jordan was being elevated ahead of him with barely half of those accolades on his resume.

Because Jordan was dominant and...because we watched Kareem decline and become mortal before our eyes.



If Jordan starts losing multiple playoff series during the 1990s, he still among the All Time greats, but he wouldn't have been the consensus best player ever.

If Jordan had gone to 8 straight Finals and been 6-2, you'd be sitting here saying "he really should've retired for a year and a half, then come back and been bounced in the semis before winning the last 3"?

That's just kinda dumb. Not even kinda, that's just straight up a dumb opinion.

of course it's telling that after some time, he was winning the championship, defensive team and scoring title every single year.

Fact is, he dominated the sport like Lebron never has been able to.

It's dumb to call that opinion dumb. If Jordan couldn't get it done six times, especially if he got slaughtered, choked, or put his team in a tough situation multiple times, of course it wouldn't be as obvious. But he rose to the occasion and dominated every single time.

6 for 6 with no game 7 is largely due to his dominance and is said with good reasons. Lebron fans dismiss it because frankly, Lebron doesn't have that capability.

It'd be one thing if Lebron stepped up every single time with less help... but Lebron....

1. Absolutely choked in 2011

2. Choked in 2010 against Boston, getting eliminated

3. Almost choked against the Spurs when saved with Allen's 3 Bosh's rebound

4. Finally hit the 35 ppg mark, but shot .397 from the field against GS in the finals when he truly had to carry an offense (can't find that from Jordan even averaging 41 ppg... on .550 from the field)

5. Was slaughtered twice, all time historical slaughters in the finals

6. 4 matchups won Finals MVP, Durant outplaying him significantly in the clutch in particular, but with higher PER etc overall
Chose not to guard KD the following year, wonder why if he's such an effective defender?



That is way too many shortcomings in the finals alone. You won't find one of those from Jordan. In terms of dominating the game, Jordan was on another level. Popovich literally left Lebron open from midrange as a strategy in the finals (which Lebron did capitalize on). But think anyone would dare do that with Jordan? That's not a GOAT.