Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[winforlose]

An area of frustration I have with the conversation is that I don't think anybody is advocating trading for Kevin Durant at the expense of Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid. I think a lot of it would depend on Naz Reid's willingness to pick up his Player Option and extend

Kevin Durant, Anthony Edwards, Rudy Gobert, and Jaden McDaniels is $160,117,742 of salary. Add Donte DiVincenzo (in the ridiculous hypothetical where he isn't needed in the trade), and Minnesota is up to $172,107,742.

With the starting five set, Minnesota would have $35,717,258 to fill out the roster (obviously becomes closer to $47MM with Donte DiVincenzo going out, but operating as if he is kept). Add Terrence Shannon Jr. and Jaylen Clark, and it is around $31 million. That is plenty of room to fill 7-8 roster spots. If Naz accepted picking up his Player Option, there would be ~$16MM to fill 6-7 roster spots.

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

With ~$16MM to fill the gaps. The taxpayer MLE is projected to be set at $5,685,000, which First Apron teams can use.


My view is that it is completely possible to build out that roster with the remaining funds. If Naz is unwilling to take his Player-Option (which is what I would expect!), then you likely have to reevaluate. I also think that, in reality, Donte DiVincenzo would be traded in a deal for Kevin Durant, which would shake-up how we are looking at the salary situation. That said, operating under the most brutal salary situation, the team would be a bit thin, but infinitely better than it is now.

Okay, so please give me your suggested trade parameters and we can discuss.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

Nope, there is no road. You already said every move must be judged as championship or bust. Five years down the road doesn't matter. Next year doesn't matter. If it doesn't result in a championship this year, it s a failure.

You keep trying to take what people say, ignore the context, and then extend their position to illogical extremes. Trading young and useful players for an older player who is expiring is a very specific type of move. It is a short term profit for long term cost move. You know this is true because most NBA players don’t play at 39 or 40, and those that do last that long don’t often play at a high level. What is the value of a short term all in move without a championship aspiration? How does getting a good older player at the expense of vital young player talent (a 2025 first, Dilly on a rookie scale, NAW pre prime,) help us in 3 years?

Again, I don't view every move with an immediacy of championship or bust. That's how trades like Luka to LA happen: Because Luka in Dallas was clearly a failure since it didn't net a championship.

And also again, not all old players are the same. You seem to have this mindset tat because Durant is 37, he will turn into Kevin Willis when the clock strikes midnight. Kevin Durant has one of the most aging-friendly skillsets of all-time.

Also, a move like this is about more than just Durant. It's about Ant too. It's about surrounding Ant with elite complementary players who can help elevate Ant's game to yet another level. You might be waiting 5-10 years for Dillingham to hopefully maybe have that kind of an impact on Ant, if ever.

Phoenix probably think like that when they trade KD and Beal to play with Booker . Sometimes it's works, sometimes not.
I agree on one point, we are good but we need at least one top player to be championship level.
Then we have 2 choices : Trading for a star, preferably younger than KD on my opinion or develop young guys ... 2 different ways, OKC develop players and get only one superstar, Boston got 2 stars and surround them with good players. There is not good or bad recipes.

[winforlose]

You keep trying to take what people say, ignore the context, and then extend their position to illogical extremes. Trading young and useful players for an older player who is expiring is a very specific type of move. It is a short term profit for long term cost move. You know this is true because most NBA players don’t play at 39 or 40, and those that do last that long don’t often play at a high level. What is the value of a short term all in move without a championship aspiration? How does getting a good older player at the expense of vital young player talent (a 2025 first, Dilly on a rookie scale, NAW pre prime,) help us in 3 years?

Again, I don't view every move with an immediacy of championship or bust. That's how trades like Luka to LA happen: Because Luka in Dallas was clearly a failure since it didn't net a championship.

And also again, not all old players are the same. You seem to have this mindset tat because Durant is 37, he will turn into Kevin Willis when the clock strikes midnight. Kevin Durant has one of the most aging-friendly skillsets of all-time.

Also, a move like this is about more than just Durant. It's about Ant too. It's about surrounding Ant with elite complementary players who can help elevate Ant's game to yet another level. You might be waiting 5-10 years for Dillingham to hopefully maybe have that kind of an impact on Ant, if ever.

Phoenix probably think like that when they trade KD and Beal to play with Booker . Sometimes it's works, sometimes not.
I agree on one point, we are good but we need at least one top player to be championship level.
Then we have 2 choices : Trading for a star, preferably younger than KD on my opinion or develop young guys ... 2 different ways, OKC develop players and get only one superstar, Boston got 2 stars and surround them with good players. There is not good or bad recipes.

We paired Ant with KAT for 4 years, he is not exactly starving for all star teammate experience. Not to mention Rudy.

[guest81]

An area of frustration I have with the conversation is that I don't think anybody is advocating trading for Kevin Durant at the expense of Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid. I think a lot of it would depend on Naz Reid's willingness to pick up his Player Option and extend

Kevin Durant, Anthony Edwards, Rudy Gobert, and Jaden McDaniels is $160,117,742 of salary. Add Donte DiVincenzo (in the ridiculous hypothetical where he isn't needed in the trade), and Minnesota is up to $172,107,742.

With the starting five set, Minnesota would have $35,717,258 to fill out the roster (obviously becomes closer to $47MM with Donte DiVincenzo going out, but operating as if he is kept). Add Terrence Shannon Jr. and Jaylen Clark, and it is around $31 million. That is plenty of room to fill 7-8 roster spots. If Naz accepted picking up his Player Option, there would be ~$16MM to fill 6-7 roster spots.

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

With ~$16MM to fill the gaps. The taxpayer MLE is projected to be set at $5,685,000, which First Apron teams can use.


My view is that it is completely possible to build out that roster with the remaining funds. If Naz is unwilling to take his Player-Option (which is what I would expect!), then you likely have to reevaluate. I also think that, in reality, Donte DiVincenzo would be traded in a deal for Kevin Durant, which would shake-up how we are looking at the salary situation. That said, operating under the most brutal salary situation, the team would be a bit thin, but infinitely better than it is now.

I think the suns could get more than Randle plus filler for kd

[Note30]

An area of frustration I have with the conversation is that I don't think anybody is advocating trading for Kevin Durant at the expense of Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid. I think a lot of it would depend on Naz Reid's willingness to pick up his Player Option and extend

Kevin Durant, Anthony Edwards, Rudy Gobert, and Jaden McDaniels is $160,117,742 of salary. Add Donte DiVincenzo (in the ridiculous hypothetical where he isn't needed in the trade), and Minnesota is up to $172,107,742.

With the starting five set, Minnesota would have $35,717,258 to fill out the roster (obviously becomes closer to $47MM with Donte DiVincenzo going out, but operating as if he is kept). Add Terrence Shannon Jr. and Jaylen Clark, and it is around $31 million. That is plenty of room to fill 7-8 roster spots. If Naz accepted picking up his Player Option, there would be ~$16MM to fill 6-7 roster spots.

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

With ~$16MM to fill the gaps. The taxpayer MLE is projected to be set at $5,685,000, which First Apron teams can use.


My view is that it is completely possible to build out that roster with the remaining funds. If Naz is unwilling to take his Player-Option (which is what I would expect!), then you likely have to reevaluate. I also think that, in reality, Donte DiVincenzo would be traded in a deal for Kevin Durant, which would shake-up how we are looking at the salary situation. That said, operating under the most brutal salary situation, the team would be a bit thin, but infinitely better than it is now.

If we retain this

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

in a trade for KD, I will take back almost every bad thing I said about TC. **** filling out the roster. 3-4 people who can run the pick and roll and shoot the ball around Gobert makes Ants life way easier. KD is still one of the best shot creators in the game.

We'd still desperately need a backup PG and C tho.

[winforlose]

An area of frustration I have with the conversation is that I don't think anybody is advocating trading for Kevin Durant at the expense of Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid. I think a lot of it would depend on Naz Reid's willingness to pick up his Player Option and extend

Kevin Durant, Anthony Edwards, Rudy Gobert, and Jaden McDaniels is $160,117,742 of salary. Add Donte DiVincenzo (in the ridiculous hypothetical where he isn't needed in the trade), and Minnesota is up to $172,107,742.

With the starting five set, Minnesota would have $35,717,258 to fill out the roster (obviously becomes closer to $47MM with Donte DiVincenzo going out, but operating as if he is kept). Add Terrence Shannon Jr. and Jaylen Clark, and it is around $31 million. That is plenty of room to fill 7-8 roster spots. If Naz accepted picking up his Player Option, there would be ~$16MM to fill 6-7 roster spots.

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

With ~$16MM to fill the gaps. The taxpayer MLE is projected to be set at $5,685,000, which First Apron teams can use.


My view is that it is completely possible to build out that roster with the remaining funds. If Naz is unwilling to take his Player-Option (which is what I would expect!), then you likely have to reevaluate. I also think that, in reality, Donte DiVincenzo would be traded in a deal for Kevin Durant, which would shake-up how we are looking at the salary situation. That said, operating under the most brutal salary situation, the team would be a bit thin, but infinitely better than it is now.

If we retain this

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

in a trade for KD, I will take back almost every bad thing I said about TC. **** filling out the roster. 3-4 people who can run the pick and roll and shoot the ball around Gobert makes Ants life way easier. KD is still one of the best shot creators in the game.

We'd still desperately need a backup PG and C tho.

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster? Having talent is not enough, you need balance and depth. Take Jaden and DDV out for a month, does the team make the playoffs? Take Rudy and DDV out for a month does the team make the playoffs? Our current roster is only 6 games above .500 and it has depth to account for the injuries. The Suns are 2 games below .500 and they don’t.

[Note30]

An area of frustration I have with the conversation is that I don't think anybody is advocating trading for Kevin Durant at the expense of Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid. I think a lot of it would depend on Naz Reid's willingness to pick up his Player Option and extend

Kevin Durant, Anthony Edwards, Rudy Gobert, and Jaden McDaniels is $160,117,742 of salary. Add Donte DiVincenzo (in the ridiculous hypothetical where he isn't needed in the trade), and Minnesota is up to $172,107,742.

With the starting five set, Minnesota would have $35,717,258 to fill out the roster (obviously becomes closer to $47MM with Donte DiVincenzo going out, but operating as if he is kept). Add Terrence Shannon Jr. and Jaylen Clark, and it is around $31 million. That is plenty of room to fill 7-8 roster spots. If Naz accepted picking up his Player Option, there would be ~$16MM to fill 6-7 roster spots.

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

With ~$16MM to fill the gaps. The taxpayer MLE is projected to be set at $5,685,000, which First Apron teams can use.


My view is that it is completely possible to build out that roster with the remaining funds. If Naz is unwilling to take his Player-Option (which is what I would expect!), then you likely have to reevaluate. I also think that, in reality, Donte DiVincenzo would be traded in a deal for Kevin Durant, which would shake-up how we are looking at the salary situation. That said, operating under the most brutal salary situation, the team would be a bit thin, but infinitely better than it is now.

If we retain this

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

in a trade for KD, I will take back almost every bad thing I said about TC. **** filling out the roster. 3-4 people who can run the pick and roll and shoot the ball around Gobert makes Ants life way easier. KD is still one of the best shot creators in the game.

We'd still desperately need a backup PG and C tho.

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster? Having talent is not enough, you need balance and depth. Take Jaden and DDV out for a month, does the team make the playoffs? Take Rudy and DDV out for a month does the team make the playoffs? Our current roster is only 6 games above .500 and it has depth to account for the injuries. The Suns are 2 games below .500 and they don’t.

We're already ****. Not sure what depth were really losing. Dilly Conley and Julius Randle for KD is the trade this looks like.

We can't trade NAW I assume he leaves in FA. If we could retain him that's one piece back. In which case were looking for a backup PG replacement. That's one player.

All of the things you mentioned could happen today and screw us

[Domejandro]

I think the suns could get more than Randle plus filler for kd

For the record, I fully agree.

[winforlose]

If we retain this

Donte DiVincenzo /
Anthony Edwards / Jaylen Clark
Jaden McDaniels / Terrence Shannon Jr.
Kevin Durant / Naz Reid
Rudy Gobert /

in a trade for KD, I will take back almost every bad thing I said about TC. **** filling out the roster. 3-4 people who can run the pick and roll and shoot the ball around Gobert makes Ants life way easier. KD is still one of the best shot creators in the game.

We'd still desperately need a backup PG and C tho.

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster? Having talent is not enough, you need balance and depth. Take Jaden and DDV out for a month, does the team make the playoffs? Take Rudy and DDV out for a month does the team make the playoffs? Our current roster is only 6 games above .500 and it has depth to account for the injuries. The Suns are 2 games below .500 and they don’t.

We're already ****. Not sure what depth were really losing. Dilly Conley and Julius Randle for KD is the trade this looks like.

We can't trade NAW I assume he leaves in FA. If we could retain him that's one piece back. In which case were looking for a backup PG replacement. That's one player.

All of the things you mentioned could happen today and screw us

The original proposal included the first from Det. Losing two rookie scale contracts, not having the money to keep NAW, not having the money to do a taxpayer MLE, and being forced to sign a lot of undrafteds is more than just the guys you mentioned. KD is one player and an older expiring player at that. Dilly represents our 2031 1st and a 2030 top 1 protected pick swap. Giving that plus a mid teens Det 1st for a 37 year old expiring would be bad enough. Then you lose NAW and are forced to make downgrades all over the roster to boot. Finally, Randle and Mike are not worthless. Mike is a decent playoff depth PG even at 38, and Randle coming off the bench on a 22 or 23 million dollar deal is not the worst thing. We have plenty of talent and young guys to develop, what we need is patience and to balance the roster.

[Loaf_of_bread]

Randle, rob and detroit 1st for kd?

[Klomp]

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster?

Might as well fold the team now if you are expecting a perfectly constructed roster from 1 through 15 all while replenishing all of our assets and staying out of the second apron, because there will be no satisfying what you are looking for.

Just because one roster failed that wasn't perfectly constructed doesn't mean that all others from this point forward are destined for guaranteed failure as well.

[Klomp]

Okay, so please give me your suggested trade parameters and we can discuss.

Here's the pecking order of who I'm personally willing and unwilling to include in a trade.

Unwilling: Anthony Edwards, Naz Reid, Jaden McDaniels
Willing: Anyone else, construct a trade almost however you want in order to get a deal done

[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

[winforlose]

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster?

Might as well fold the team now if you are expecting a perfectly constructed roster from 1 through 15 all while replenishing all of our assets and staying out of the second apron, because there will be no satisfying what you are looking for.

Just because one roster failed that wasn't perfectly constructed doesn't mean that all others from this point forward are destined for guaranteed failure as well.

I have been defending and responding a lot, now I would like to ask some questions of you.

1. What do you believe Rob Dillingham’s ceiling will be? Likewise where do you expect his floor to be? You can answer for 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, or all of the above.

2. Do you believe Naz Reid has 20/10 potential on efficient shooting when in his prime as a starting PF?

3. Do you believe Leonard Miller will one day be a rotation worthy player for an NBA contender?

4. Do you believe Jaylen Clark has enough consistent offense to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

5. Do you believe Terrance Shannon has enough defensive potential and offensive tools to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

6. What do you envision for the future of Jaden McDaniels?

I promise I will use your answers productively in a response to your above quoted comment.

[shrink]

While I don’t see a realistic way to get him, this is what Kevin Durant can do to opponents

Read on Twitter

[TimberKat]

While I don’t see a realistic way to get him, this is what Kevin Durant can do to opponents

Read on Twitter

If he wants to be here it's a very real possibility. Due to cap raise, we won't be in 2nd apron even with this year's salary. For next year, Google and Hoopshype is saying. Cap will be 170M, 2nd Apron will be 229m, Wolves salary with player options is $185M. I think we will move both Randle and Naz to get KD. However, Ant, KD, Gobert is basically last year's team with KD even a better fit than Towns

[shrink]

I think the biggest issue in a KD trade is finding enough matching salary that we are willing to give up to match.

[BlacJacMac]

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster?

Might as well fold the team now if you are expecting a perfectly constructed roster from 1 through 15 all while replenishing all of our assets and staying out of the second apron, because there will be no satisfying what you are looking for.

Just because one roster failed that wasn't perfectly constructed doesn't mean that all others from this point forward are destined for guaranteed failure as well.

Not only that, but the Suns are a very badly constructed roster. Way too much offensive overlap, not nearly enough defense.

Replace Plumlee/Richards with Gobert. Replace Beal with Jaden. Replace Allen and O'Neale with Naz and DDV.

Put our guys around Durant and Booker and you have a much better team.

Now swap Booker for Ant because KD is on the Wolves and you have a very scary team. Even if its isn't very deep at the end of the bench.

[winforlose]

Ask the Suns how well it goes having a shallow and poorly constructed roster?

Might as well fold the team now if you are expecting a perfectly constructed roster from 1 through 15 all while replenishing all of our assets and staying out of the second apron, because there will be no satisfying what you are looking for.

Just because one roster failed that wasn't perfectly constructed doesn't mean that all others from this point forward are destined for guaranteed failure as well.

Not only that, but the Suns are a very badly constructed roster. Way too much offensive overlap, not nearly enough defense.

Replace Plumlee/Richards with Gobert. Replace Beal with Jaden. Replace Allen and O'Neale with Naz and DDV.

Put our guys around Durant and Booker and you have a much better team.

Now swap Booker for Ant because KD is on the Wolves and you have a very scary team. Even if its isn't very deep at the end of the bench.

I hear you. Before I respond I feel like these questions would aid our discussion.

1. What do you believe Rob Dillingham’s ceiling will be? Likewise where do you expect his floor to be? You can answer for 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, or all of the above.

2. Do you believe Naz Reid has 20/10 potential on efficient shooting when in his prime as a starting PF?

3. Do you believe Leonard Miller will one day be a rotation worthy player for an NBA contender?

4. Do you believe Jaylen Clark has enough consistent offense to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

5. Do you believe Terrance Shannon has enough defensive potential and offensive tools to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

6. What do you envision for the future of Jaden McDaniels?

[BlacJacMac]

Might as well fold the team now if you are expecting a perfectly constructed roster from 1 through 15 all while replenishing all of our assets and staying out of the second apron, because there will be no satisfying what you are looking for.

Just because one roster failed that wasn't perfectly constructed doesn't mean that all others from this point forward are destined for guaranteed failure as well.

Not only that, but the Suns are a very badly constructed roster. Way too much offensive overlap, not nearly enough defense.

Replace Plumlee/Richards with Gobert. Replace Beal with Jaden. Replace Allen and O'Neale with Naz and DDV.

Put our guys around Durant and Booker and you have a much better team.

Now swap Booker for Ant because KD is on the Wolves and you have a very scary team. Even if its isn't very deep at the end of the bench.

I hear you. Before I respond I feel like these questions would aid our discussion.

1. What do you believe Rob Dillingham’s ceiling will be? Likewise where do you expect his floor to be? You can answer for 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, or all of the above.

2. Do you believe Naz Reid has 20/10 potential on efficient shooting when in his prime as a starting PF?

3. Do you believe Leonard Miller will one day be a rotation worthy player for an NBA contender?

4. Do you believe Jaylen Clark has enough consistent offense to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

5. Do you believe Terrance Shannon has enough defensive potential and offensive tools to be a top 8 rotation player for an NBA contender?

6. What do you envision for the future of Jaden McDaniels?

1. Ceiling: Borderline All-Star, near neutral defender. Floor: Inefficient bench gunner. He could be Darius Garland. He could be Brandon Jennings. He could float around the league on "prove it" contracts after his rookie deal.

2. Yes.

3. I honestly have no idea. He clearly has talent, but there appears to be a key component missing. I get Anthony Randolph vibes from him.

4. Yes. I don't know if he'll ever be a 36% or better 3pt shooter, but his understanding of moving without the ball is very advanced for a "non-offensive" player. He's already showing smarter and more varied cutting ability than he ever did in college. He's also a crafty passer. I don't worry about his struggles finishing. I don't think he's completely over the mental aspect of the leg injury, so he tends to overprotect himself and not go up with full power at the rim.

5. Yes. I think he can be a more rounded Corey Maggette type player. People forget that he was his team defensive stopper at Texas Tech before reinventing himself as a high volume scorer at Illinois. He's a kid that will fit whatever role he's asked. And he seem much more committed and coachable than Minott and Miller.

6. I think he's a star in the making. I believe he has the talent to be part of a "Big 3" on a contender.