Sam Vecenie: Brandon Ingram EXTENDED in Toronto! What exactly is the Raptors plan?!

[earthtone]

Yeah, issue isn't so much the tax implications and 10% cap rises will give us breathing room - though it will be tight for a year or two. Bigger issue is that we have a lot of high teens/low 20s % of the cap deals, There is use for these deals in trades but they are becoming harder and harder to move under the current CBA. Going into next year, we either have a bunch of guys on minimum/rookie deals or making ~$30m+. Outside of Poeltl, we don't have the $15m-$20m contracts to move. So it makes trades a lot more difficult. That's my main issue with the way our cap has shaped up.

Yah, definitely fair, going to be interesting to see how the trade market shapes up. This CBA looks like it's going to eliminate a ton of the middle-class of player salaries and create rosters filled with Max players and Vet mins. Probably going to be around 100 guys in the league making 20mil or more next year tho, so not too worried about potential trade avenues opening

[mdenny]

As others have suggested...we are in a unique position of asset accumulation. There's only a handful of teams in the same position for an amalgamating trade for a disgruntled star/disgruntled FO scenario:

1 we have all our picks

2 we have enough depth to make a 2 for 1 amalgamating trade without stripping the team of enough starter-quality players

3 we have a salary roster with a variety of different levels of salary from which to cull a salary matching trade


1 is self-explanatory.
2 is important. For example...when ppl spoke of trading for Durant a few seasons ago....you couldn't do that without adding OG to the trade. Which would've left us with Fred, Durant, Siakam. Or in other words...not enough leftover to compete for chip. If we hit on this pick....we would have 6 quality starting players. Plus they are generally young. A perfect position to add a star through trade.

3 is also crucial. Alot of teams have their salary distribution tied into one or 2 max level contracts. We have 20 milly aav, 27 aav, 35 aav, 40 aav and 45 aav. Alot of teams looking for the amalgmating trade can't piece together the right contracts to match salary. We have TONS of flexibility/options to do this.

Here's an example: if Houston had tried to make the amalgamating trade....EVERY conceivable package would've HAD to include Fred. In order to reach 60 million in matching salary....it HAD to be Fred plus others. Now look at us:

RJ + Barnes
Barnes + iq
Ingram + Iq
Ingram + Rj
Poetl + Ingram
Barnes + poetl
Iq + poetl

All of these combinations gets you to 60 or above. And there are ALOT more permutations. With a team like Houston...every conceivable package started with Fred. Someone can check my math...but I think we have 20 distinct permutations of equalling at least 55 million in matching salary. (5×4)

By adding a top 10 pick this summer....we have a chance (of it hits) to pull off a final major move to create a contender.

Suppose we're 2 months into next season and we realize we hit on the pick. Suppose it's a PF (ie Flagg).

We could then pivot in a direction to get a star guard. Some examples might be Lamelo or Booker or Morant.

Barnes, RJ, 3 swaps could get us a star guard.

So for example:

Iq
Booker
Ingram
Star rookie (perhaps flagg)
Poetl

Now we are cooking with fish grease.

Suppose we hit on a rookie guard instead of a front court player. Then we could try a similar trade targeting a front court guy who is disgruntled or FO is disgruntled/looking to tear down. Let's say Giannis.

Something like 4 picks/4 swaps, Walter, IQ, RJ

So:

Star rookie who hits
Ingram
Scotty
Giannis
Poetl.

Obviously that lineup needs tweaking but you are still cooking with fish grease.

These examples are meant to convey what is possible. It's essentially the kawhi trade route. Not sure why ppl dismiss that as lucky. Disgruntled stars happens every season. Teams decide to tear down every season. It's impossible to know exactly who it will be or which teak....but it happens like clockwork.

The point here is that we satisfy the above 3 criteria perfectly to pounce on an opportunity like that. We haven't been in that position since the kawhi trade.

So the main critique of our current situation is that we have too many fringe stars for too many big contracts. Which i agree is a problem. But it is that EXACT position that a team needs to be in, in order to pounce on the disgruntled star/team tear down opportunities that are bound to happen.

The list of possible players is pretty long right now. Everyone knows Booker and Durant are possibilities. I could see Dallas falling apart (AD/kyrie). I could see giannis finally deciding to move on. I could see lamelo or Trae deciding to move on. Embiid is obviously at risk. Morant isn't in a stable position. And then there's the situations you don't see coming loke the doncic trade. Maybe things fall apart in Denver. Maybe something happens in the Thunder locker room.

I figure we have a 2 year window to wait for the chance to pounce.

[Scase]

Just got around to listening to this.

They spent too much time talking about the fit issues given they themselves said explicitly that this is a talent play. The roster clearly is not set (at least to me) so I'm not sure why that would be the primary focus of this. IMO, Scottie + Ingram + IQ is a good fit and complementary in skill-set. I also believe IQ can play off-ball. The primary fit issue here is Barrett, but I don't see him here long term (or can't see how it would work).

I agree with them on the cost of the roster. And this is why I wanted to see Barrett moved in the deal (which would have also accelerated solving the broader fit issues). I suspect RJ will be moved though it's more difficult now because you have to be cognizant of the salary commitment you are brining back. Whereas if you had swapped RJ for Ingram, things would have been a lot easier.

NO wouldn’t have wanted RJ though. Would have made them a tax team next year by about $12m which is one of the issues they were looking to fix. Would have needed another team to take RJ.

I am interested to see how they all play together. I’m not yet convinced they (RJ, BI, SB) can’t play together. I do think RJ is best suited for 6th man.

Am I nuts, or would RJ + boucher for BI +a pick, and re-route herb jones elsewhere have worked? Gets them an expiring in boucher who comes off the books to cover that 12-13mil, they likely get a FRP or a couple seconds for Herb, and they get younger.

Obviously you need to find that 3rd team, but herb has decent value last I checked, so it doesn't seem like it would be too hard, or am I missing something?

[Pointgod]

Just got around to listening to this.

They spent too much time talking about the fit issues given they themselves said explicitly that this is a talent play. The roster clearly is not set (at least to me) so I'm not sure why that would be the primary focus of this. IMO, Scottie + Ingram + IQ is a good fit and complementary in skill-set. I also believe IQ can play off-ball. The primary fit issue here is Barrett, but I don't see him here long term (or can't see how it would work).

I agree with them on the cost of the roster. And this is why I wanted to see Barrett moved in the deal (which would have also accelerated solving the broader fit issues). I suspect RJ will be moved though it's more difficult now because you have to be cognizant of the salary commitment you are brining back. Whereas if you had swapped RJ for Ingram, things would have been a lot easier.

NO wouldn’t have wanted RJ though. Would have made them a tax team next year by about $12m which is one of the issues they were looking to fix. Would have needed another team to take RJ.

I am interested to see how they all play together. I’m not yet convinced they (RJ, BI, SB) can’t play together. I do think RJ is best suited for 6th man.

Am I nuts, or would RJ + boucher for BI +a pick, and re-route herb jones elsewhere have worked? Gets them an expiring in boucher who comes off the books to cover that 12-13mil, they likely get a FRP or a couple seconds for Herb, and they get younger.

Obviously you need to find that 3rd team, but herb has decent value last I checked, so it doesn't seem like it would be too hard, or am I missing something?

New Orleans would be crazy to trade Herb and Ingram without getting ALOT of picks back. Herb is basically their version of OG defensively locked into a bargain contract. Trey Murphy is basically the Ingram replacement and if they’ll probably have a top 5 pick next year. The Pelicans need to sack up and trade Zion to build through the draft because their ownership is too **** cheap to pay for talent. I don’t see any value for RJ on that roster when they could find a similar type of player through the draft.

[Scase]

NO wouldn’t have wanted RJ though. Would have made them a tax team next year by about $12m which is one of the issues they were looking to fix. Would have needed another team to take RJ.

I am interested to see how they all play together. I’m not yet convinced they (RJ, BI, SB) can’t play together. I do think RJ is best suited for 6th man.

Am I nuts, or would RJ + boucher for BI +a pick, and re-route herb jones elsewhere have worked? Gets them an expiring in boucher who comes off the books to cover that 12-13mil, they likely get a FRP or a couple seconds for Herb, and they get younger.

Obviously you need to find that 3rd team, but herb has decent value last I checked, so it doesn't seem like it would be too hard, or am I missing something?

New Orleans would be crazy to trade Herb and Ingram without getting ALOT of picks back. Herb is basically their version of OG defensively locked into a bargain contract. Trey Murphy is basically the Ingram replacement and if they’ll probably have a top 5 pick next year. The Pelicans need to sack up and trade Zion to build through the draft because their ownership is too **** cheap to pay for talent. I don’t see any value for RJ on that roster when they could find a similar type of player through the draft.

Fair point, I think I'm not in the loop with how well Herb has been playing. I figured RJ would be a decent return for them with a youngish player on a cheap contract, but yeah you can probably find any of 3-5 guys in this draft alone that will probably do what RJ can do, in a couple years.

[Pointgod]

Am I nuts, or would RJ + boucher for BI +a pick, and re-route herb jones elsewhere have worked? Gets them an expiring in boucher who comes off the books to cover that 12-13mil, they likely get a FRP or a couple seconds for Herb, and they get younger.

Obviously you need to find that 3rd team, but herb has decent value last I checked, so it doesn't seem like it would be too hard, or am I missing something?

New Orleans would be crazy to trade Herb and Ingram without getting ALOT of picks back. Herb is basically their version of OG defensively locked into a bargain contract. Trey Murphy is basically the Ingram replacement and if they’ll probably have a top 5 pick next year. The Pelicans need to sack up and trade Zion to build through the draft because their ownership is too **** cheap to pay for talent. I don’t see any value for RJ on that roster when they could find a similar type of player through the draft.

Fair point, I think I'm not in the loop with how well Herb has been playing. I figured RJ would be a decent return for them with a youngish player on a cheap contract, but yeah you can probably find any of 3-5 guys in this draft alone that will probably do what RJ can do, in a couple years.

Jones is having a down year but last season is an indication of his potential. Elite defence combined with efficient shooting and surprising assists numbers all for 10 million a year. The reason RJ doesn’t make any sense on that team is that they have Dejounte Murray who’s going to come back, they’ll probably draft another wing or PG and already have enough guards that are cheaper than RJ on the roster.