Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[winforlose]

The original proposal included the first from Det. Losing two rookie scale contracts, not having the money to keep NAW, not having the money to do a taxpayer MLE, and being forced to sign a lot of undrafteds is more than just the guys you mentioned. KD is one player and an older expiring player at that. Dilly represents our 2031 1st and a 2030 top 1 protected pick swap. Giving that plus a mid teens Det 1st for a 37 year old expiring would be bad enough. Then you lose NAW and are forced to make downgrades all over the roster to boot. Finally, Randle and Mike are not worthless. Mike is a decent playoff depth PG even at 38, and Randle coming off the bench on a 22 or 23 million dollar deal is not the worst thing. We have plenty of talent and young guys to develop, what we need is patience and to balance the roster.

Yeah not a fan of giving up the DET pick. That being said we're **** until 2028.

Blame TC for this **** hole he put us in. Dilly was and is not worth that especially considering our pick was one of the more valuable ones that got flipped for Fox.

If you base every trade off of the value we pay we will never be able to trade Gobert.

Mike is a mid-tier backup PG, Randle is trash. If Dilly is what we have to pay to get Durant over those two Id do it in a heartbeat because Dilly is not worth what we paid for him, chalk that up to yet another mistake in TCs long line of mistakes.

I'd hope we can retain NAW and the DET pick.

Dilly not worth what we paid for him? We fleeced SA with that trade. It was the 8th pick, if FO believed in rob it's a robbery. 2031 could be our 20+ pick. Swap in 2030 could be 20+ as well. SA taking a chance the pick might be low, but 5 years in the future??

Also, NAW can go. Highly doubt he is with us next year.

I think it was more about not wanting to draft anyone for salary reasons/ not believing in the fit of the best available talent relative to their existing pick and roster. By getting the pick and the swap they added assets which helped them get Fox and could be used elsewhere. The reason you don’t see that type of trade is most GMs don’t have 7 years of job security where they can afford to get nothing back in their ten years and give up a lottery player that might blossom into an all star. Pop is old, his health is failing, and he has lifetime job security. Great combination to make a deal with.

[Klomp]

So using these answers I want to point out the following. Naz is a PF who can play SF, and in a pinch small ball C. Jaden is a SF who can also play PF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. KD is a PF, who can play SF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. Do you see how adding KD could step on both Naz and Jaden. That is before you factor in that Ant is a top offensive option, Naz wants to be, and Jaden getting more shots and more involved in the offense is key to his development. Whether that happens at SF or PF.

You talk about Clark being fringe and TSJ possibly being top 8, but that answer lacks confidence (fair?) So by removing Dilly, Mike, NAW, and Randle we would be promoting TSJ to a rotation spot you are unsure about, Clark to a spot you do not feel good about, and backfilling with players who are likely worse than what we have now. Putting aside the obvious issues, why is going even more top heavy on talent a priority at a time when OKC, Houston, Memphis, and others are finding success by playing more talented backups and lowering the strain on their key players? Did we not just burn out Ant in the Dallas series (and a little in the Denver series,) and lose the playoff chase last year with a similar issue? If you think TSJ, Clark, and Dilly have potential, why not give them another year to explore it?

Finally, as for the Ant improving by playing with KD argument, Ant played four years with KAT, three years with Rudy, 2.5 years with Mike, and has been to multiple international competitions now. He has played and worked beside excellent players. Does he really need another high usage high volume shooter beside him when he has DDV, Randle, Naz, and hopefully an increased usage Jaden?

First of all, I don't believe in the notion that a 15-man roster should have one PG, one SG, one SF, one PF, and one C. All rosters should and do have crossover in the depth chart. The more important question is if players can fit together cohesively on the court. Beal and Booker aren't an issue because they are both shooting guards; they are an issue because their skillsets are not a good match. Look at Boston. They loaded up on guards and forwards while their backup center is Luke Kornet. They don't have the same issue as Phoenix because their "overlapping" players have cohesive skillsets.

I think Durant would help elevate the games of guys like Reid and McDaniels, not stifle them. Even if there was slight stifling, you're talking about arguably a Top 10 player in NBA history who is still close to the top of his game. I will take that risk any day of the week.

You are making a lot of assumptions on rotations and backfill when it is simply too early to know the details. We don't know what anything would look like, that's why I cannot give a definitive answer. But I am not letting a two-way player and two rookies from one of the shallowest draft classes ever make me second guess adding one of the greatest ever. If they have to be included, so be it. If the trade results in needing them to step up their games, so be it.

Again, Durant is one of the greatest players in NBA history....you must be joking if you are trying to argue that playing with Towns and Conley is the same as teaming up with one of the best ever, who also happens to be the player Ant looks up to and respects more than any other in NBA history.

[Note30]

The original proposal included the first from Det. Losing two rookie scale contracts, not having the money to keep NAW, not having the money to do a taxpayer MLE, and being forced to sign a lot of undrafteds is more than just the guys you mentioned. KD is one player and an older expiring player at that. Dilly represents our 2031 1st and a 2030 top 1 protected pick swap. Giving that plus a mid teens Det 1st for a 37 year old expiring would be bad enough. Then you lose NAW and are forced to make downgrades all over the roster to boot. Finally, Randle and Mike are not worthless. Mike is a decent playoff depth PG even at 38, and Randle coming off the bench on a 22 or 23 million dollar deal is not the worst thing. We have plenty of talent and young guys to develop, what we need is patience and to balance the roster.

Yeah not a fan of giving up the DET pick. That being said we're **** until 2028.

Blame TC for this **** hole he put us in. Dilly was and is not worth that especially considering our pick was one of the more valuable ones that got flipped for Fox.

If you base every trade off of the value we pay we will never be able to trade Gobert.

Mike is a mid-tier backup PG, Randle is trash. If Dilly is what we have to pay to get Durant over those two Id do it in a heartbeat because Dilly is not worth what we paid for him, chalk that up to yet another mistake in TCs long line of mistakes.

I'd hope we can retain NAW and the DET pick.

Dilly not worth what we paid for him? We fleeced SA with that trade. It was the 8th pick, if FO believed in rob it's a robbery. 2031 could be our 20+ pick. Swap in 2030 could be 20+ as well. SA taking a chance the pick might be low, but 5 years in the future??

Also, NAW can go. Highly doubt he is with us next year.

Fleeced? Dude is averaging 5.6 and 2.5. Maybe he'll get better but at the moment fleece def isn't the word Id use. We overpaid for mediocre talent. Not the first time.

Name a player you'd trade a pick swap and basically unprotected pick for 5.6 and 2.5.

We're also on the brink of potential collapse with no picks coming back, that pick is not trending towards 20+. It's trending towards top 10. In our current state, Ant asks out in a few years and we have no prospects of getting better.

Wild terrible take, but not surprising given your last major take was about how KAT is a trash terrible player.

[Note30]

So using these answers I want to point out the following. Naz is a PF who can play SF, and in a pinch small ball C. Jaden is a SF who can also play PF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. KD is a PF, who can play SF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. Do you see how adding KD could step on both Naz and Jaden. That is before you factor in that Ant is a top offensive option, Naz wants to be, and Jaden getting more shots and more involved in the offense is key to his development. Whether that happens at SF or PF.

You talk about Clark being fringe and TSJ possibly being top 8, but that answer lacks confidence (fair?) So by removing Dilly, Mike, NAW, and Randle we would be promoting TSJ to a rotation spot you are unsure about, Clark to a spot you do not feel good about, and backfilling with players who are likely worse than what we have now. Putting aside the obvious issues, why is going even more top heavy on talent a priority at a time when OKC, Houston, Memphis, and others are finding success by playing more talented backups and lowering the strain on their key players? Did we not just burn out Ant in the Dallas series (and a little in the Denver series,) and lose the playoff chase last year with a similar issue? If you think TSJ, Clark, and Dilly have potential, why not give them another year to explore it?

Finally, as for the Ant improving by playing with KD argument, Ant played four years with KAT, three years with Rudy, 2.5 years with Mike, and has been to multiple international competitions now. He has played and worked beside excellent players. Does he really need another high usage high volume shooter beside him when he has DDV, Randle, Naz, and hopefully an increased usage Jaden?

First of all, I don't believe in the notion that a 15-man roster should have one PG, one SG, one SF, one PF, and one C. All rosters should and do have crossover in the depth chart. The more important question is if players can fit together cohesively on the court. Beal and Booker aren't an issue because they are both shooting guards; they are an issue because their skillsets are not a good match. Look at Boston. They loaded up on guards and forwards while their backup center is Luke Kornet. They don't have the same issue as Phoenix because their "overlapping" players have cohesive skillsets.

I think Durant would help elevate the games of guys like Reid and McDaniels, not stifle them. Even if there was slight stifling, you're talking about arguably a Top 10 player in NBA history who is still close to the top of his game. I will take that risk any day of the week.

You are making a lot of assumptions on rotations and backfill when it is simply too early to know the details. We don't know what anything would look like, that's why I cannot give a definitive answer. But I am not letting a two-way player and two rookies from one of the shallowest draft classes ever make me second guess adding one of the greatest ever. If they have to be included, so be it. If the trade results in needing them to step up their games, so be it.

Again, Durant is one of the greatest players in NBA history....you must be joking if you are trying to argue that playing with Towns and Conley is the same as teaming up with one of the best ever, who also happens to be the player Ant looks up to and respects more than any other in NBA history.

C'mon man. No reasonable franchise in our exact situation would rather have Durant than Towns in the long term.

In the short term sure.

[winforlose]

So using these answers I want to point out the following. Naz is a PF who can play SF, and in a pinch small ball C. Jaden is a SF who can also play PF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. KD is a PF, who can play SF, and in a pinch can play small ball C. Do you see how adding KD could step on both Naz and Jaden. That is before you factor in that Ant is a top offensive option, Naz wants to be, and Jaden getting more shots and more involved in the offense is key to his development. Whether that happens at SF or PF.

You talk about Clark being fringe and TSJ possibly being top 8, but that answer lacks confidence (fair?) So by removing Dilly, Mike, NAW, and Randle we would be promoting TSJ to a rotation spot you are unsure about, Clark to a spot you do not feel good about, and backfilling with players who are likely worse than what we have now. Putting aside the obvious issues, why is going even more top heavy on talent a priority at a time when OKC, Houston, Memphis, and others are finding success by playing more talented backups and lowering the strain on their key players? Did we not just burn out Ant in the Dallas series (and a little in the Denver series,) and lose the playoff chase last year with a similar issue? If you think TSJ, Clark, and Dilly have potential, why not give them another year to explore it?

Finally, as for the Ant improving by playing with KD argument, Ant played four years with KAT, three years with Rudy, 2.5 years with Mike, and has been to multiple international competitions now. He has played and worked beside excellent players. Does he really need another high usage high volume shooter beside him when he has DDV, Randle, Naz, and hopefully an increased usage Jaden?

First of all, I don't believe in the notion that a 15-man roster should have one PG, one SG, one SF, one PF, and one C. All rosters should and do have crossover in the depth chart. The more important question is if players can fit together cohesively on the court. Beal and Booker aren't an issue because they are both shooting guards; they are an issue because their skillsets are not a good match. Look at Boston. They loaded up on guards and forwards while their backup center is Luke Kornet. They don't have the same issue as Phoenix because their "overlapping" players have cohesive skillsets.

I think Durant would help elevate the games of guys like Reid and McDaniels, not stifle them. Even if there was slight stifling, you're talking about arguably a Top 10 player in NBA history who is still close to the top of his game. I will take that risk any day of the week.

You are making a lot of assumptions on rotations and backfill when it is simply too early to know the details. We don't know what anything would look like, that's why I cannot give a definitive answer. But I am not letting a two-way player and two rookies from one of the shallowest draft classes ever make me second guess adding one of the greatest ever. If they have to be included, so be it. If the trade results in needing them to step up their games, so be it.

Again, Durant is one of the greatest players in NBA history....you must be joking if you are trying to argue that playing with Towns and Conley is the same as teaming up with one of the best ever, who also happens to be the player Ant looks up to and respects more than any other in NBA history.

I have a lot to say this to this, but let’s start here.

86.7 shot attempts per game this season.

20.8 FGA for Ant this season
9.3 FGA for DDV this season
14 FGA for Randle this season
11.1 FGA for Naz this season
9.6 FGA for Jaden this season
20.8+ 9.3+14+11.1+9.6= 64.8 FGA per game.
86.7 - 64.8 =21.9 FGA for the rest of the team.

For context this season KD is averaging 18.7 FGA.

Now you might look at this and be pleased. That seems balanced and when the Wolves are on their game they can beat OKC wire to wire, or upset Denver by 20+. But notice that Jaden and Naz are taking 20.7 FGA per game to Ant’s 20.8. I think we all agree that Naz and Jaden are important to the future of this team. Personally I want to see those numbers increase for both Jaden and Naz next year. It is also worth noting that DDV and Randle have both missed extended stretches this season. Naz and Jaden have not. Their numbers are therefore at least in part inflated to account for increased attempts to make up for the absence of their teammates. Replacing Randle with KD who shoots 4.7 more FGA will have an effect on both Naz and Jaden as the number of available shots is more likely to decrease than an increase as more shots go in and fewer offensive rebound are available. So help me understand how KD is going to transform Ant’s game while also not stifling the growth of Jaden and Naz.

Also assuming Jaden and Naz both start with KD and Ant who is the fifth starter DDV or Rudy? There are 240 available minutes. How many minutes do you envision each player getting on average? How many of them are together (talented concentrated at the top like the playoffs,) and how many are staggered (talent more evenly distributed for the regular season?) You talk about not wanting to base decisions on guys like Dilly, Clark, and TSJ, but you also are dramatically changing their importance. Any increase in depth chart priorities for any of them mean they must take and make more shots, stay out of foul trouble, hold up to the NBA schedule with increased PT, and play winning basketball.

On the one hand you criticize the notion of every move needing to be championship or bust. But on the other you talk about how good KD is at scoring and how more scoring will increase winning. You talk about how players with similar skill sets have too much overlap, but then you want to pair slim with the slim reaper and then you throw Naz on top. There is a ton of overlap there, and not necessarily for the better. You talk about how great KD is “top 10 all time,” but also acknowledge he missed 20% of his potential games in his career. If he misses 20% of a season that 16.4 games. You talk about how important KD is to the suns 24-17 with him 2-11 without him. Well if he misses 16.4 games that would be us. Even with KD they are only 7 games above .500.

What this all boils down to (at least based on your posts,) is that you badly want to Ant to be influenced by KD. You want him to be around greatness and to learn from his example. What I cannot help but remember is that KD for all his talent never wanted to build anything himself. He left a well positioned OKC to take less money and win rings with the current champs. Then he left the dynasty to form a super team ready made to contend. When that failed he insisted on going to a ready made contender. Shrink talks about how rare it is to have players who want to be here. I don’t believe that KD will encourage Ant to stay. I think the lesson Ant learns from KD is don’t care about the fans or franchise loyalty. Don’t be Jokic or Giannias who win one ring and drag their team to the top. Be the guy who gets multiple rings by caring more about winning than anyone or anything else. I don’t want that near Ant, and I hope you don’t either.

[TimberKat]

I look at KD as an other scoring option that takes some responsibilities off Ant so he is not pressed and out of gas in the 4th qtr. KD's mid range and post up efficiency opens up opportunities to other players as they will have cleaner looks. He rebounds and defend better than Towns/Naz. When we are down 2 pt. We could have a DK mid range or Ant open 3 as opposed to Ant forced 3. Just that alone would had given us at last 3 more wins this year.

Overall we will end up with 2 or 3 more possessions per game. As a team, we will have higher scoring efficiency and won't lose any defense as replacement for Randle and Naz. JMcD and guards will have more open looks.

[guest81]

We're already ****. Not sure what depth were really losing. Dilly Conley and Julius Randle for KD is the trade this looks like.

We can't trade NAW I assume he leaves in FA. If we could retain him that's one piece back. In which case were looking for a backup PG replacement. That's one player.

All of the things you mentioned could happen today and screw us

The original proposal included the first from Det. Losing two rookie scale contracts, not having the money to keep NAW, not having the money to do a taxpayer MLE, and being forced to sign a lot of undrafteds is more than just the guys you mentioned. KD is one player and an older expiring player at that. Dilly represents our 2031 1st and a 2030 top 1 protected pick swap. Giving that plus a mid teens Det 1st for a 37 year old expiring would be bad enough. Then you lose NAW and are forced to make downgrades all over the roster to boot. Finally, Randle and Mike are not worthless. Mike is a decent playoff depth PG even at 38, and Randle coming off the bench on a 22 or 23 million dollar deal is not the worst thing. We have plenty of talent and young guys to develop, what we need is patience and to balance the roster.

Yeah not a fan of giving up the DET pick. That being said we're **** until 2028.

Blame TC for this **** hole he put us in. Dilly was and is not worth that especially considering our pick was one of the more valuable ones that got flipped for Fox.

If you base every trade off of the value we pay we will never be able to trade Gobert.

Mike is a mid-tier backup PG, Randle is trash. If Dilly is what we have to pay to get Durant over those two Id do it in a heartbeat because Dilly is not worth what we paid for him, chalk that up to yet another mistake in TCs long line of mistakes.

I'd hope we can retain NAW and the DET pick.

Wolves have one of the most talented rosters in the league and most of the roster is under 25 and pretty much locked up. But yea sure we're screwed because we don't have a bunch of mid round first picks

[Klomp]

C'mon man. No reasonable franchise in our exact situation would rather have Durant than Towns in the long term.

In the short term sure.

First of all, I never said that.

Secondly, these moves were two separate moves and should be treated as much. The Towns trade happened. Good or bad, it's over. Now the question is where do you go from here with the pieces you ave in front of you? If you don't necessarily worry about being a 45-plus win team in the next few years, go ahead and run it through with all of the young guys. Make minimal moves if you really like how the entire roster looks right now. Me though? I make the Towns trade with an eye on what the next trade could be. The mismatched fit of the players can be worked around for a year, but in no way did I ever expect this to be the 12-man core for the next 10 years.

Is Durant the best option? I honestly don't know yet. I think he might be, but also I do agree that there is some risk involved. So it will come down to what players need to be involved in order to make the trade value match and what hoops need to be jumped through to make the money work. But I'm not eliminating the option off the bat due to a closed mind, either.

[Klomp]

What this all boils down to (at least based on your posts,) is that you badly want to Ant to be influenced by KD. You want him to be around greatness and to learn from his example. What I cannot help but remember is that KD for all his talent never wanted to build anything himself. He left a well positioned OKC to take less money and win rings with the current champs. Then he left the dynasty to form a super team ready made to contend. When that failed he insisted on going to a ready made contender. Shrink talks about how rare it is to have players who want to be here. I don’t believe that KD will encourage Ant to stay. I think the lesson Ant learns from KD is don’t care about the fans or franchise loyalty. Don’t be Jokic or Giannias who win one ring and drag their team to the top. Be the guy who gets multiple rings by caring more about winning than anyone or anything else. I don’t want that near Ant, and I hope you don’t either.

Guess what? Ant might already have that mindset.... So what do you want to do in the meantime, team him up with guys who also care more about winning than anything else or guys who may be loyal but might not move the needle in winning games? You take the loyal losers, I'll take the winners.

I would love for Ant to spend his whole career here. But I'm not pairing him with lesser talents because I'm scared they might talk to him about joining another team 5-10 years down the road maybe. I want guys who pour their souls into winning.

You all were terrified about adding Patrick Beverley for similar reasons....yet he wond up one of the best additions in the last 5 years because of his influence on the players and how important they took winning.

[Note30]

The original proposal included the first from Det. Losing two rookie scale contracts, not having the money to keep NAW, not having the money to do a taxpayer MLE, and being forced to sign a lot of undrafteds is more than just the guys you mentioned. KD is one player and an older expiring player at that. Dilly represents our 2031 1st and a 2030 top 1 protected pick swap. Giving that plus a mid teens Det 1st for a 37 year old expiring would be bad enough. Then you lose NAW and are forced to make downgrades all over the roster to boot. Finally, Randle and Mike are not worthless. Mike is a decent playoff depth PG even at 38, and Randle coming off the bench on a 22 or 23 million dollar deal is not the worst thing. We have plenty of talent and young guys to develop, what we need is patience and to balance the roster.

Yeah not a fan of giving up the DET pick. That being said we're **** until 2028.

Blame TC for this **** hole he put us in. Dilly was and is not worth that especially considering our pick was one of the more valuable ones that got flipped for Fox.

If you base every trade off of the value we pay we will never be able to trade Gobert.

Mike is a mid-tier backup PG, Randle is trash. If Dilly is what we have to pay to get Durant over those two Id do it in a heartbeat because Dilly is not worth what we paid for him, chalk that up to yet another mistake in TCs long line of mistakes.

I'd hope we can retain NAW and the DET pick.

Wolves have one of the most talented rosters in the league and most of the roster is under 25 and pretty much locked up. But yea sure we're screwed because we don't have a bunch of mid round first picks

Damn you're delusional. We have Ant. That's it. Without him this is a bottom 3 team in the WC.

Most talented roster lol what a **** joke.

We're 7th seed. We're one injury away from being 11th. Which would be probably a 13th pick.

Mid picks are where you find a bunch of good players. It's the lottery for the first 14 picks.

But keep smoking that good ****.

Chill with the name calling.

[Klomp]

Now you might look at this and be pleased. That seems balanced and when the Wolves are on their game they can beat OKC wire to wire, or upset Denver by 20+. But notice that Jaden and Naz are taking 20.7 FGA per game to Ant’s 20.8. I think we all agree that Naz and Jaden are important to the future of this team. Personally I want to see those numbers increase for both Jaden and Naz next year. It is also worth noting that DDV and Randle have both missed extended stretches this season. Naz and Jaden have not. Their numbers are therefore at least in part inflated to account for increased attempts to make up for the absence of their teammates. Replacing Randle with KD who shoots 4.7 more FGA will have an effect on both Naz and Jaden as the number of available shots is more likely to decrease than an increase as more shots go in and fewer offensive rebound are available. So help me understand how KD is going to transform Ant’s game while also not stifling the growth of Jaden and Naz.

I think it's important to be able to recognize that not every player has the capacity to be "the guy" on a great or even good team. On one hand, you could argue that Minnesota "stifled" Andrew Wiggins by trading for Jimmy Butler. On the other hand, could you really say with a straight face that you thought Andrew Wiggins could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team?

Fast forward to today....sure, a Durant trade might "stifle" McDaniels or Reid....but can you really say with a straight face that you think Jaden McDaniels and/or Naz Reid could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team? I'd personally give them being a third option, but honestly that might be optimistic. These two are both great stories, but there is a wide gap between good and elite. Kevin Durant is elite, and has been for going on almost 20 years. Sure, a fall-off could come at any moment, at which he becomes the level of.....a Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid level, if we're being honest.

[winforlose]

Now you might look at this and be pleased. That seems balanced and when the Wolves are on their game they can beat OKC wire to wire, or upset Denver by 20+. But notice that Jaden and Naz are taking 20.7 FGA per game to Ant’s 20.8. I think we all agree that Naz and Jaden are important to the future of this team. Personally I want to see those numbers increase for both Jaden and Naz next year. It is also worth noting that DDV and Randle have both missed extended stretches this season. Naz and Jaden have not. Their numbers are therefore at least in part inflated to account for increased attempts to make up for the absence of their teammates. Replacing Randle with KD who shoots 4.7 more FGA will have an effect on both Naz and Jaden as the number of available shots is more likely to decrease than an increase as more shots go in and fewer offensive rebound are available. So help me understand how KD is going to transform Ant’s game while also not stifling the growth of Jaden and Naz.

I think it's important to be able to recognize that not every player has the capacity to be "the guy" on a great or even good team. On one hand, you could argue that Minnesota "stifled" Andrew Wiggins by trading for Jimmy Butler. On the other hand, could you really say with a straight face that you thought Andrew Wiggins could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team?

Fast forward to today....sure, a Durant trade might "stifle" McDaniels or Reid....but can you really say with a straight face that you think Jaden McDaniels and/or Naz Reid could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team? I'd personally give them being a third option, but honestly that might be optimistic. These two are both great stories, but there is a wide gap between good and elite. Kevin Durant is elite, and has been for going on almost 20 years. Sure, a fall-off could come at any moment, at which he becomes the level of.....a Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid level, if we're being honest.

This is where you are argument starts to fail. We don’t need a 1A we have Ant. We had a 1B he cost us 50+ million and we traded him. You might remember him, tall guy, we used his initials to refer to him, plays at MSG. You could get KD to be 1B, but the funny thing is even if Naz gets 25 million, that is half of what KD makes this year, and less than half of what he makes next year. Jaden is making a little under 25 next year. You put those two salaries together and you still don’t equal KD. So if KD drops off and become MCD level or Naz level the term for him is MASSIVELY OVERPAID! Especially in a 2nd apron era where teams are looking for value deals. Plus Naz and Jaden are both pre prime. You can say you don’t believe in a prime jump, but you saw it with KAT, and you have seen it many times around the league. Durant is half a decade past his prime. His trajectory is downward. Meanwhile Naz and Jaden like Ant are on an upward trajectory. Giving Naz and Jaden the proper role and responsibility to match that increase in ability is key to development. Making them adjust to KD is the absolute worst thing you could do to them if you want them to hit their apex.

You say we are not in championship or bust mode, but you advocate for a trade in a championship or bust phase of his career. At 37 KD is not gonna be chill with an early playoff exit. He wants legacy and that means rings. You want a happy KD being a positive influence, but what you will get is an unhappy KD counting down the days till he can ditch us for the best contender who will pay him.

[fattymcgee]

Fleeced? Dude is averaging 5.6 and 2.5. Maybe he'll get better but at the moment fleece def isn't the word Id use. We overpaid for mediocre talent. Not the first time.

Name a player you'd trade a pick swap and basically unprotected pick for 5.6 and 2.5.

We're also on the brink of potential collapse with no picks coming back, that pick is not trending towards 20+. It's trending towards top 10. In our current state, Ant asks out in a few years and we have no prospects of getting better.

Wild terrible take, but not surprising given your last major take was about how KAT is a trash terrible player.

Your logic baffles me. We definitely got the better end of that trade.
Your reasoning is using rookie raw stats that plays on a playoff team that sits behind 4 good rotation level guards. How would you expect any rookie to put up good raw numbers in these circumstances?

His Per 36 numbers look pretty damned good for a rookie and he's just turned 20.
16.6PPG & 7.0 ASST on .456/.377

Damn you're delusional. We have Ant. That's it. Without him this is a bottom 3 team in the WC.

Most talented roster lol what a **** joke.

We're 7th seed. We're one injury away from being 11th. Which would be probably a 13th pick.

Mid picks are where you find a bunch of good players. It's the lottery for the first 14 picks.

But keep smoking that good ****.

Exaggerate much? Right now we are 2+ injuries away yet we are winning more games than we are losing. We are missing our #2 & #4 scorer and Conley lately too. Roster seems pretty solid to me.

[guest81]

Yeah not a fan of giving up the DET pick. That being said we're **** until 2028.

Blame TC for this **** hole he put us in. Dilly was and is not worth that especially considering our pick was one of the more valuable ones that got flipped for Fox.

If you base every trade off of the value we pay we will never be able to trade Gobert.

Mike is a mid-tier backup PG, Randle is trash. If Dilly is what we have to pay to get Durant over those two Id do it in a heartbeat because Dilly is not worth what we paid for him, chalk that up to yet another mistake in TCs long line of mistakes.

I'd hope we can retain NAW and the DET pick.

Wolves have one of the most talented rosters in the league and most of the roster is under 25 and pretty much locked up. But yea sure we're screwed because we don't have a bunch of mid round first picks

Damn you're delusional. We have Ant. That's it. Without him this is a bottom 3 team in the WC.

Most talented roster lol what a **** joke.

We're 7th seed. We're one injury away from being 11th. Which would be probably a 13th pick.

Mid picks are where you find a bunch of good players. It's the lottery for the first 14 picks.

But keep smoking that good ****.

Pretty sure you could say most every team in the league would be terrible without their best player. Can you give like one example of a team ever that's been a top team without their best player?

[BlacJacMac]

Now you might look at this and be pleased. That seems balanced and when the Wolves are on their game they can beat OKC wire to wire, or upset Denver by 20+. But notice that Jaden and Naz are taking 20.7 FGA per game to Ant’s 20.8. I think we all agree that Naz and Jaden are important to the future of this team. Personally I want to see those numbers increase for both Jaden and Naz next year. It is also worth noting that DDV and Randle have both missed extended stretches this season. Naz and Jaden have not. Their numbers are therefore at least in part inflated to account for increased attempts to make up for the absence of their teammates. Replacing Randle with KD who shoots 4.7 more FGA will have an effect on both Naz and Jaden as the number of available shots is more likely to decrease than an increase as more shots go in and fewer offensive rebound are available. So help me understand how KD is going to transform Ant’s game while also not stifling the growth of Jaden and Naz.

I think it's important to be able to recognize that not every player has the capacity to be "the guy" on a great or even good team. On one hand, you could argue that Minnesota "stifled" Andrew Wiggins by trading for Jimmy Butler. On the other hand, could you really say with a straight face that you thought Andrew Wiggins could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team?

Fast forward to today....sure, a Durant trade might "stifle" McDaniels or Reid....but can you really say with a straight face that you think Jaden McDaniels and/or Naz Reid could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team? I'd personally give them being a third option, but honestly that might be optimistic. These two are both great stories, but there is a wide gap between good and elite. Kevin Durant is elite, and has been for going on almost 20 years. Sure, a fall-off could come at any moment, at which he becomes the level of.....a Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid level, if we're being honest.

This is where you are argument starts to fail. We don’t need a 1A we have Ant. We had a 1B he cost us 50+ million and we traded him. You might remember him, tall guy, we used his initials to refer to him, plays at MSG. You could get KD to be 1B, but the funny thing is even if Naz gets 25 million, that is half of what KD makes this year, and less than half of what he makes next year. Jaden is making a little under 25 next year. You put those two salaries together and you still don’t equal KD. So if KD drops off and become MCD level or Naz level the term for him is MASSIVELY OVERPAID! Especially in a 2nd apron era where teams are looking for value deals. Plus Naz and Jaden are both pre prime. You can say you don’t believe in a prime jump, but you saw it with KAT, and you have seen it many times around the league. Durant is half a decade past his prime. His trajectory is downward. Meanwhile Naz and Jaden like Ant are on an upward trajectory. Giving Naz and Jaden the proper role and responsibility to match that increase in ability is key to development. Making them adjust to KD is the absolute worst thing you could do to them if you want them to hit their apex.

You say we are not in championship or bust mode, but you advocate for a trade in a championship or bust phase of his career. At 37 KD is not gonna be chill with an early playoff exit. He wants legacy and that means rings. You want a happy KD being a positive influence, but what you will get is an unhappy KD counting down the days till he can ditch us for the best contender who will pay him.

When was KAT's "prime jump"? At 22-23?

[winforlose]

I think it's important to be able to recognize that not every player has the capacity to be "the guy" on a great or even good team. On one hand, you could argue that Minnesota "stifled" Andrew Wiggins by trading for Jimmy Butler. On the other hand, could you really say with a straight face that you thought Andrew Wiggins could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team?

Fast forward to today....sure, a Durant trade might "stifle" McDaniels or Reid....but can you really say with a straight face that you think Jaden McDaniels and/or Naz Reid could be a 1A or 1B for a good to great team? I'd personally give them being a third option, but honestly that might be optimistic. These two are both great stories, but there is a wide gap between good and elite. Kevin Durant is elite, and has been for going on almost 20 years. Sure, a fall-off could come at any moment, at which he becomes the level of.....a Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid level, if we're being honest.

This is where you are argument starts to fail. We don’t need a 1A we have Ant. We had a 1B he cost us 50+ million and we traded him. You might remember him, tall guy, we used his initials to refer to him, plays at MSG. You could get KD to be 1B, but the funny thing is even if Naz gets 25 million, that is half of what KD makes this year, and less than half of what he makes next year. Jaden is making a little under 25 next year. You put those two salaries together and you still don’t equal KD. So if KD drops off and become MCD level or Naz level the term for him is MASSIVELY OVERPAID! Especially in a 2nd apron era where teams are looking for value deals. Plus Naz and Jaden are both pre prime. You can say you don’t believe in a prime jump, but you saw it with KAT, and you have seen it many times around the league. Durant is half a decade past his prime. His trajectory is downward. Meanwhile Naz and Jaden like Ant are on an upward trajectory. Giving Naz and Jaden the proper role and responsibility to match that increase in ability is key to development. Making them adjust to KD is the absolute worst thing you could do to them if you want them to hit their apex.

You say we are not in championship or bust mode, but you advocate for a trade in a championship or bust phase of his career. At 37 KD is not gonna be chill with an early playoff exit. He wants legacy and that means rings. You want a happy KD being a positive influence, but what you will get is an unhappy KD counting down the days till he can ditch us for the best contender who will pay him.

When was KAT's "prime jump"? At 22-23?

23/24 and 24/25. 22/23 was a bad year for KAT. His horrible infection really derailed his season. He lost a ton of weight, was prevented from working on his game, and left vulnerable to a soft tissue injury which took longer than expected to recover from. But the defensive leap, the smoothness of his transition to PF, and the ability to play at such an elite level know even with thumb issues show KAT is in his prime.

[Klomp]

This is where you are argument starts to fail. We don’t need a 1A we have Ant. We had a 1B he cost us 50+ million and we traded him. You might remember him, tall guy, we used his initials to refer to him, plays at MSG. You could get KD to be 1B, but the funny thing is even if Naz gets 25 million, that is half of what KD makes this year, and less than half of what he makes next year. Jaden is making a little under 25 next year. You put those two salaries together and you still don’t equal KD. So if KD drops off and become MCD level or Naz level the term for him is MASSIVELY OVERPAID! Especially in a 2nd apron era where teams are looking for value deals. Plus Naz and Jaden are both pre prime. You can say you don’t believe in a prime jump, but you saw it with KAT, and you have seen it many times around the league. Durant is half a decade past his prime. His trajectory is downward. Meanwhile Naz and Jaden like Ant are on an upward trajectory. Giving Naz and Jaden the proper role and responsibility to match that increase in ability is key to development. Making them adjust to KD is the absolute worst thing you could do to them if you want them to hit their apex.

You say we are not in championship or bust mode, but you advocate for a trade in a championship or bust phase of his career. At 37 KD is not gonna be chill with an early playoff exit. He wants legacy and that means rings. You want a happy KD being a positive influence, but what you will get is an unhappy KD counting down the days till he can ditch us for the best contender who will pay him.

When was KAT's "prime jump"? At 22-23?

23/24 and 24/25. 22/23 was a bad year for KAT. His horrible infection really derailed his season. He lost a ton of weight, was prevented from working on his game, and left vulnerable to a soft tissue injury which took longer than expected to recover from. But the defensive leap, the smoothness of his transition to PF, and the ability to play at such an elite level know even with thumb issues show KAT is in his prime.

Towns is 29. McDaniels is 24. So you are refusing to make a move on him because he might make a prime jump 5 years from now?

[BlacJacMac]

This is where you are argument starts to fail. We don’t need a 1A we have Ant. We had a 1B he cost us 50+ million and we traded him. You might remember him, tall guy, we used his initials to refer to him, plays at MSG. You could get KD to be 1B, but the funny thing is even if Naz gets 25 million, that is half of what KD makes this year, and less than half of what he makes next year. Jaden is making a little under 25 next year. You put those two salaries together and you still don’t equal KD. So if KD drops off and become MCD level or Naz level the term for him is MASSIVELY OVERPAID! Especially in a 2nd apron era where teams are looking for value deals. Plus Naz and Jaden are both pre prime. You can say you don’t believe in a prime jump, but you saw it with KAT, and you have seen it many times around the league. Durant is half a decade past his prime. His trajectory is downward. Meanwhile Naz and Jaden like Ant are on an upward trajectory. Giving Naz and Jaden the proper role and responsibility to match that increase in ability is key to development. Making them adjust to KD is the absolute worst thing you could do to them if you want them to hit their apex.

You say we are not in championship or bust mode, but you advocate for a trade in a championship or bust phase of his career. At 37 KD is not gonna be chill with an early playoff exit. He wants legacy and that means rings. You want a happy KD being a positive influence, but what you will get is an unhappy KD counting down the days till he can ditch us for the best contender who will pay him.

When was KAT's "prime jump"? At 22-23?

23/24 and 24/25. 22/23 was a bad year for KAT. His horrible infection really derailed his season. He lost a ton of weight, was prevented from working on his game, and left vulnerable to a soft tissue injury which took longer than expected to recover from. But the defensive leap, the smoothness of his transition to PF, and the ability to play at such an elite level know even with thumb issues show KAT is in his prime.

So KAT had a premature prime?

I'm talking AGE, not SEASONS. KAT's best years were in his early 20s. Well before his "prime".

You can also easily argue that KAT was already playing a lot of PF those years. When he was out there with Taj or Dieng, those guys were clearly the center. Especially Taj who was ineffective outside of the paint on both ends.

[winforlose]

When was KAT's "prime jump"? At 22-23?

23/24 and 24/25. 22/23 was a bad year for KAT. His horrible infection really derailed his season. He lost a ton of weight, was prevented from working on his game, and left vulnerable to a soft tissue injury which took longer than expected to recover from. But the defensive leap, the smoothness of his transition to PF, and the ability to play at such an elite level know even with thumb issues show KAT is in his prime.

Towns is 29. McDaniels is 24. So you are refusing to make a move on him because he might make a prime jump 5 years from now?

I am confused by this. Towns at 29 has presumably 5 to 7 solid years left (assuming health and non basketball stuff don’t derail him.) KD has at best 3 years left, likely fewer. Jaden at 24 (making the same KAT presumptions,) probably has 14-15 years left. But longevity isn’t the issue. KAT still being in his prime might continue to improve but is unlikely to regress (it could happen, but is not typical.) Jaden being pre prime means his play should improve. KD being well past his prime and on the wrong side of 35 is more likely to regress. In fact they added the rule of 38 for situations like KDs were an aging player might try and get the long term contract leveraging a team to do it.

[winforlose]

When was KAT's "prime jump"? At 22-23?

23/24 and 24/25. 22/23 was a bad year for KAT. His horrible infection really derailed his season. He lost a ton of weight, was prevented from working on his game, and left vulnerable to a soft tissue injury which took longer than expected to recover from. But the defensive leap, the smoothness of his transition to PF, and the ability to play at such an elite level know even with thumb issues show KAT is in his prime.

So KAT had a premature prime?

I'm talking AGE, not YEARS. KAT's best years were in his early 20s. Well before his "prime".

You can also easily argue that KAT was already playing a lot of PF those years. When he was out there with Taj or Dieng, those guys were clearly the center. Especially Taj who was ineffective outside of the paint on both ends.

I disagree with the premise but will accept it for the purpose of this response. Some players have outstanding (both literally and figuratively,) years where they far exceed their previous performance. Randle had one such year and got paid based on it. The term outstanding is appropriate because they are outlier. In KAT’s case his being healthier when younger and the league having less answers for his game probably helped him. As he got older and the injuries started to nag him and the tape on him got around and teams figured out his vulnerabilities (stray voltage, kick out on the 3, ect…,) his play would worsen.

I think the Karl you are saw last year and again this year is more mature, more methodical, and more defensively capable. This is often the case when a player reaches their prime and refines their game. I hope the same thing happens for all 3 of Ant, Jaden, and Naz.