2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[jalengreen]

Not sure who the DPOY frontrunner is now?

Early odds have it as between JJJ and Mobley, makes sense.

[Fadeaway_J]

All-NBA teams not looking too hot right now

[rk2023]

I am just devastated seeing that Vic news man.

[AEnigma]

Not sure who the DPOY frontrunner is now?

Early odds have it as between JJJ and Mobley, makes sense.

Moderately unpopular opinion, and I hate that in a way I will be “right” about this entirely because of injury, but I felt it was a bad look for the DPoY award to have basically been decided by the all-star break… for a player firmly out of the postseason and leading a below average defence. I think odds for Wemby to win were -2000 when I last checked — which is something no person should have ever gambled on so long as exactly this could happen — and to me that should be characterising the absolute best defensive campaigns in league history, or at least a season like 2009 where no one else really has a comprehensive case against the eventual winner.

Wemby is incredible, and he is the best defensive talent the league has ever seen, but no player has ever won the award without their team reaching the postseason, and only Alvin Robertson (the worst winner in the award’s history) won on a team with a losing record. And I know the modern retort is to just say, “hey, these awards should be entirely about individuals, and if a player is the best defender then they should win DPoY no matter what, and looking at team results is what permits guys like Marcus Smart to win the award,” but I think that degree of individualisation is bad for the league long-term. At that point, what occurred during the season no longer matters. I would rather have a league where teammates can reflect on how their bad play had some actual consequences and where other elite defenders cannot just throw up their hands and correctly determine that nothing they do matters so long as Wemby plays 65 games.

So while I feel bad for Wemby, and I really hope this does not become a long-term issue for him, I am glad that JJJ or Mobley will be given a legitimate chance to receive recognition for their excellent seasons on two of the league’s best teams.

[Special_Puppy]

Not sure who the DPOY frontrunner is now?

Early odds have it as between JJJ and Mobley, makes sense.

Moderately unpopular opinion, and I hate that in a way I will be “right” about this entirely because of injury, but I felt it was a bad look for the DPoY award to have basically been decided by the all-star break… for a player firmly out of the postseason and leading a below average defence. I think odds for Wemby to win were -2000 when I last checked — which is something no person should have ever gambled on so long as exactly this could happen — and to me that should be characterising the absolute best defensive campaigns in league history, or at least a season like 2009 where no one else really has a comprehensive case against the eventual winner.

Wemby is incredible, and the best defensive talent the league has ever seen, but no player has ever won the award without their team reaching the postseason, and only Alvin Robertson (the worst winner in the award’s history) won on a team with a losing record. And I know the modern retort is to just say, “hey, these awards should be entirely about individuals, and if a player is the best defender then they should win DPoY no matter what, and looking at team results is what permits guys like Marcus Smart to win the award,” but I think that degree of individualisation is bad for the league long-term. At that point, what occurred during the season no longer matters. I would rather have a league where teammates can reflect on how their bad play had some actual consequences, and other elite defenders cannot just throw up their hands and correctly determine that nothing they do matters so long as Wemby plays 65 games.

So while I feel bad for Wemby, and I really hope this does not become a long-term issue for him, I am glad that JJJ or Mobley will be given a legitimate chance to receive recognition for their excellent seasons on two of the league’s best teams.

Do you think that JJJ and Mobley were more impactful defenders than Wemby up to this point?

[AEnigma]

No, but they were certainly “impacting” the loss records of other teams much more. I am not taking the position that a player absolutely needs to make the postseason or absolutely needs to have led an above average defence (yes, I know the Spurs were above average when he was on court) for me to support them as DPoY; however, it also does not seem to be asking too much for at least one of those to be true when crowning a guy as a basically uncontested favourite.

[jalengreen]

I wonder if Chet would have won had he and Wemby both been healthy? Not that he’s a better defender, but in theory everybody wants to reward the team with the all-time great defense - the problem is that there’s no real great option right now. I think JDub ought to make an All-Defense team but DPOY is clearly a stretch. In fact, Dort, Shai, and JDub are 4th, 5th, and 6th in the DPOY odds right now lol.

But yeah I dunno if I’ve ever seen a guy be as big of a favorite for … any award … in the way that Wemby was since before the season even started. He was favored over the field to win DPOY entering the season. Don’t have historical data for that, maybe Dwight managed it or something, but it feels like a rarity.

[Special_Puppy]

No, but they were certainly “impacting” the loss records of other teams much more. I am not taking the position that a player absolutely needs to make the postseason or absolutely needs to have led an above average defence (yes, I know the Spurs were above average when he was on court) for me to support them as DPoY; however, it also does not seem to be asking too much for at least one of those to be true when crowning a guy as a basically uncontested favourite.

I agree that its weird that he was the uncontested favorite given those things. Candidates like Caruso, Chet, Hartenstein, and Ausar missing the 65 game was certainly part of that. FWIW for me Dunn and Zubac were the candidates who never got serious consideration, but really should have.

[Ron Swanson]

No, but they were certainly “impacting” the loss records of other teams much more. I am not taking the position that a player absolutely needs to make the postseason or absolutely needs to have led an above average defence (yes, I know the Spurs were above average when he was on court) for me to support them as DPoY; however, it also does not seem to be asking too much for at least one of those to be true when crowning a guy as a basically uncontested favourite.

This. Say you transport Wemby to Orlando. Sure, some would still say "you can't give DPOTY to a guy whose team has a losing record and could easily not even make the playoffs" (play-in shenanigans). But I mean, they're the 2nd best defense in basketball and it's clear he's the driving force behind that (on/off, impact metrics, blocks/steals, etc.). In that hypothetical I could see the "overwhelming favorite" narrative being defensible.

But as is, I think everyone was/is being a little too eager to crown Wemby and look past the actual evidence that he (doesn't) belong quite yet in the same tier as some of the truly dominant DPOTY campaigns. A 112.7 defensive on-rating is good, but not that good.

[jalengreen]

USA v World would be fun

[Dr Positivity]

I feel like wherever we have Durant on ATL we should drop him like 5 spots. He is one of the biggest cancers in top 30.

[70sFan]

No, but they were certainly “impacting” the loss records of other teams much more. I am not taking the position that a player absolutely needs to make the postseason or absolutely needs to have led an above average defence (yes, I know the Spurs were above average when he was on court) for me to support them as DPoY; however, it also does not seem to be asking too much for at least one of those to be true when crowning a guy as a basically uncontested favourite.

I agree that its weird that he was the uncontested favorite given those things. Candidates like Caruso, Chet, Hartenstein, and Ausar missing the 65 game was certainly part of that. FWIW for me Dunn and Zubac were the candidates who never got serious consideration, but really should have.

Zubac should be an easy DPOY candidate, especially with other players missing time. Unfortunately, he isn't marketable enough.

A shame because I think Zubac became such a good player, he's basically on the fringe of all-star/sub all-star tiers to me.

[MoreyWins]

I feel like wherever we have Durant on ATL we should drop him like 5 spots. He is one of the biggest cancers in top 30.

He's had some crazy unfortunate luck since leaving Golden State. As far as situations outside his control you can point to: Kyrie, COVID-19 mandates, Harden's extension, injuries, Ben Simmons, the botched summer of 2023 for Phoenix, and now the lingering effects of being a capped out team with an unmovable contract and next to no assets.

[Dr Positivity]

I feel like wherever we have Durant on ATL we should drop him like 5 spots. He is one of the biggest cancers in top 30.

He's had some crazy unfortunate luck since leaving Golden State. As far as situations outside his control you can point to: Kyrie, COVID-19 mandates, Harden's extension, injuries, Ben Simmons, the botched summer of 2023 for Phoenix, and now the lingering effects of being a capped out team with an unmovable contract and next to no assets.

The 2019 Warriors, Nets and Suns all feel like they self combusted team happiness wise so what's the common denominator? Yes maybe in some situations it was Kyrie and Harden who didn't get along or something, and in the case of a team like the Suns part of the poor results could be just his declining as expected, but overall it's not a good look.

It just seems like this guy got broken by the internet and has been selfish acting player since the second Warriors title season. You can't really knock him too much for the first 10 years.

[falcolombardi]

No, but they were certainly “impacting” the loss records of other teams much more. I am not taking the position that a player absolutely needs to make the postseason or absolutely needs to have led an above average defence (yes, I know the Spurs were above average when he was on court) for me to support them as DPoY; however, it also does not seem to be asking too much for at least one of those to be true when crowning a guy as a basically uncontested favourite.

I agree that its weird that he was the uncontested favorite given those things. Candidates like Caruso, Chet, Hartenstein, and Ausar missing the 65 game was certainly part of that. FWIW for me Dunn and Zubac were the candidates who never got serious consideration, but really should have.

Zubac should be an easy DPOY candidate, especially with other players missing time. Unfortunately, he isn't marketable enough.

A shame because I think Zubac became such a good player, he's basically on the fringe of all-star/sub all-star tiers to me.

I feel that if you consider zubac a dpoy candidate that shoukd make him very comfortably an all star/all nba level player

[jalengreen]

Need that one guy here to jinx the Warriors again I’m getting scared

[parsnips33]

Need that one guy here to jinx the Warriors again I’m getting scared

He got the jinx out of the way early I'm sorry empirefalls I didn't see the vision

[70sFan]

I agree that its weird that he was the uncontested favorite given those things. Candidates like Caruso, Chet, Hartenstein, and Ausar missing the 65 game was certainly part of that. FWIW for me Dunn and Zubac were the candidates who never got serious consideration, but really should have.

Zubac should be an easy DPOY candidate, especially with other players missing time. Unfortunately, he isn't marketable enough.

A shame because I think Zubac became such a good player, he's basically on the fringe of all-star/sub all-star tiers to me.

I feel that if you consider zubac a dpoy candidate that shoukd make him very comfortably an all star/all nba level player

I think he's DPOY candidate mostly because of the missed time of the top defenders, but yeah I'm very comfortable with him being an all-star level. He's such a cool player to watch, I don't understand why 1990s fans don't appreciate guys like him more.

[MartinToVaught]

I feel like wherever we have Durant on ATL we should drop him like 5 spots. He is one of the biggest cancers in top 30.

He's had some crazy unfortunate luck since leaving Golden State. As far as situations outside his control you can point to: Kyrie, COVID-19 mandates, Harden's extension, injuries, Ben Simmons, the botched summer of 2023 for Phoenix, and now the lingering effects of being a capped out team with an unmovable contract and next to no assets.

Kyrie was definitely not "bad luck" or outside of Durant's control. He chose to team up with a player who, at the time, was probably the most selfish and toxic diva in sports, who quit on a championship/perennial Finals team for the sake of his own ego and had just set the Celtics back several years. He blithely ignored all the glaring red flags with Kyrie and his own lack of any leadership abilities made things worse.

Listing COVID mandates is also a reach when everyone had to play under them. Again, he chose to play with the one diva in the NBA who felt he was above the rules. Some of the other stuff (like being stuck with Ben) is also downstream from his choice to play with Kyrie.

He's less to blame for the mess in Phoenix, but even then, a big reason why they're so screwed right now is because of how much they traded for him. And he's still demonstrating zero leadership ability. He doesn't appear to give a crap about winning anymore and that attitude has also rubbed off on Booker.

[falcolombardi]

I feel like wherever we have Durant on ATL we should drop him like 5 spots. He is one of the biggest cancers in top 30.

He's had some crazy unfortunate luck since leaving Golden State. As far as situations outside his control you can point to: Kyrie, COVID-19 mandates, Harden's extension, injuries, Ben Simmons, the botched summer of 2023 for Phoenix, and now the lingering effects of being a capped out team with an unmovable contract and next to no assets.

Kyrie was definitely not "bad luck" or outside of Durant's control. He chose to team up with a player who, at the time, was probably the most selfish and toxic diva in sports, who quit on a championship/perennial Finals team for the sake of his own ego and had just set the Celtics back several years. He blithely ignored all the glaring red flags with Kyrie and his own lack of any leadership abilities made things worse.

Listing COVID mandates is also a reach when everyone had to play under them. Again, he chose to play with the one diva in the NBA who felt he was above the rules. Some of the other stuff (like being stuck with Ben) is also downstream from his choice to play with Kyrie.

He's less to blame for the mess in Phoenix, but even then, a big reason why they're so screwed right now is because of how much they traded for him. And he's still demonstrating zero leadership ability. He doesn't appear to give a crap about winning anymore and that attitude has also rubbed off on Booker.

In hindsight phoenix could have done a lot of damage by keeping their 2023 team together and building around the edges

Toumani camara breakout would have finalized their team into a legit contender but obviously that was not necesaarily as obvious