RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[michaelm]

I appreciate the insight.

I'm curious: what are your thoughts on Steph being left off the list/poll of potential GOATs in this thread?

History records that the Raptors won by beating everyone who turned up to play them and could do no more. They were an excellent defensive team whom Kawhi took over the top, and deserve the assumption they would have won anyway. GSW also constructed a top heavy roster for and injuries are a not unexpected consequence of doing this. I am a GSW fan btw.

If we are playing hypotheticals do I think the Raptors would have beaten the 3017 GSW team ?. No.

I have no problem with him being left off these lists because compared individually with most players in GOAT discussions he is a less complete player and unable to dominate a game on the defensive end like Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Hakeem etc. That said he wasn’t a bad defender as far as PGs go and at least put in effort as not all offensive mavens do which fed into the GSW team culture, and teams on which he started were highly elite defensively, so I am not sure how much more defense was needed from him. The most extreme Curry partisan on the GSW board argues that peak Cutry was so great offensively that this allowed GSW to play more players who were mainly defensive, an argument which may have some merit imo.

By my personal and perhaps convenient criteria the value of a player lies with how strong a team can be built around him, and Curry rates highly in that regard. I am a big fan but mainly of what he brings to a team, and will take him leading my team to 4 titles over 4 titles won for 3 different teams any day of the week. A 5th title would imo put him into even discussions like this one but is rather unlikely unfortunately for all three of him, me, and the GSW franchise which looks to be setting up for a period in the wilderness which may be prolonged.

[michaelm]

Could they have beaten the Durant-Steph squad? That would be a tall task. It's worth noting that Kawhi did it, though.

Never believe that Jordanians are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The Jordanians have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

And LeBronians are different from Jordanians how exactly ?, other than employing a more florid prose style ?.

[ScrantonBulls]

Could they have beaten the Durant-Steph squad? That would be a tall task. It's worth noting that Kawhi did it, though.

Never believe that Jordanians are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The Jordanians have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

And LeBronians are different from Jordanians how exactly ?, other than employing a more florid prose style ?.

When's the last time you saw a "LeBronian" boldly lie and/or get things so completely wrong like the 3 blatant falsehoods in my signature? That's from a few pages ago. Or when's the last time you saw a LeBron fan get something completely wrong like the guy thinking Durant played damn near the entire 2019 finals? And there's the same Jordan fan literally saying the 94-95 playoffs has an asterisk and should be stricken from MJs record because he quit only played a partial season, and then mockingly complained about other people putting asterisks on playoff series where somebody was injured (even though nobody did that).

All that happened on this thread within the past 5-10 pages or so. There is definitely a clear difference, lol. We aren't seeing that kind of behavior from LeBron fans.

[michaelm]

Never believe that Jordanians are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The Jordanians have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

And LeBronians are different from Jordanians how exactly ?, other than employing a more florid prose style ?.

When's the last time you saw a "LeBronian" boldly lie and/or get things so completely wrong like the 3 blatant falsehoods in my signature? That's from a few pages ago. Or when's the last time you saw a LeBron fan get something completely wrong like the guy thinking Durant played damn near the entire 2019 finals? And there's the same Jordan fan literally saying the 94-95 playoffs has an asterisk and should be stricken from MJs record because he quit only played a partial season, and then mockingly complained about other people putting asterisks on playoff series where somebody was injured (even though nobody did that).

All that happened on this thread within the past 5-10 pages or so. There is definitely a clear difference, lol. We aren't seeing that kind of behavior from LeBron fans.

As I have said I see no less bias from you than from extreme Jordan partisans. A retired mod demonstrating he can do argumentum ad hominem with flowery langusge doesn’t really change anything either.

I don’t put asterixes on any championships. I strongly suspect you want to put one on the 2019 title won by the Raptors because it doesn’t fit with your narrative that LeBron was beaten by invincible teams. Even the 2018 team was quite vincible, the WCF series against the Rockets was a quite close run thing.

The bottom line is that it is not ridiculous to regard other player as the GOAT. I am certainly on team Jordan and believe he has the stronger case, but it is not as though LeBron has no case.

I don’t take the stats and metrics from either side seriously, from pretty much all parties to be selective/ selected to suit a narrative.

[MavsDirk41]

Could they have beaten the Durant-Steph squad? That would be a tall task. It's worth noting that Kawhi did it, though.

Never believe that Jordanians are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The Jordanians have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

Ok so you are an unbiased nba fan who is perplexed with Jordan fans huh? Because fans of lets say Lebron James are just spreading the truth huh? I have seen you on here numerous times challenge posters who provide content that is positive about Jordan. But what about James?

Lebron James fan on here recently said that Lebron James has never played with an mvp caliber player. Really? Wade and Davis both were top 5 in mvp voting on two separate occasions. Westbrook won league mvp one year.

Lebron James fan on here said that James struggled in the 2011 nba finals because Dallas focused their defensive attention to James. Well, maybe so but who did Boston focus their defensive attention on while playing Chicago in the 86 and 87 nba playoffs? What about Detroit in the 88, 89, and 90 nba playoffs? Was it someone other than Jordan? Don’t remember Jordan struggling as bad in any of those series as James in the 2011 nba finals.

Another Lebron James poster on here claimed Jordan always had a stacked team when he won and James never had that advantage. Seriously? So Lebron James has never played on a talented or “stacked” team? Really?

Point being i have never seen you call out a lebron james fan for saying something that isnt true on here, But i see you calling someone a Jordanian on here but your good with many of the James fans on here saying ridiculous stuff?

[ScrantonBulls]

And LeBronians are different from Jordanians how exactly ?, other than employing a more florid prose style ?.

When's the last time you saw a "LeBronian" boldly lie and/or get things so completely wrong like the 3 blatant falsehoods in my signature? That's from a few pages ago. Or when's the last time you saw a LeBron fan get something completely wrong like the guy thinking Durant played damn near the entire 2019 finals? And there's the same Jordan fan literally saying the 94-95 playoffs has an asterisk and should be stricken from MJs record because he quit only played a partial season, and then mockingly complained about other people putting asterisks on playoff series where somebody was injured (even though nobody did that).

All that happened on this thread within the past 5-10 pages or so. There is definitely a clear difference, lol. We aren't seeing that kind of behavior from LeBron fans.

As I have said I see no less bias from you than from extreme Jordan partisans. A retired mod demonstrating he can do argumentum ad hominem with flowery langusge doesn’t really change anything either.

I don’t put asterixes on any championships. I strongly suspect you want to put one on the 2019 title won by the Raptors because it doesn’t fit with your narrative that LeBron was beaten by invincible teams. Even the 2018 team was quite vincible, the WCF series against the Rockets was a quite close run thing.

The bottom line is that it is not ridiculous to regard other player as the GOAT. I am certainly on team Jordan and believe he has the stronger case, but it is not as if LeBronbhas no case.

I don’t take the stats and metrics from either side seriously, from pretty much all parties to be selective/ selected to suit a narrative.

I liked the part where you pointed to specific examples - oh wait, you didn't. I gave examples, and you gave diddly squat. I also like the assumptions you made. I see why iwaswitness stopped bothering with you. You haven't debated in good faith, so I'm done here.

Scrantonbulls 10, michaelm 0.

[Jamaaliver]

Spoiler:

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[Jamaaliver]

My official, documented thoughts on the GOAT debate...

Spoiler:

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[michaelm]

When's the last time you saw a "LeBronian" boldly lie and/or get things so completely wrong like the 3 blatant falsehoods in my signature? That's from a few pages ago. Or when's the last time you saw a LeBron fan get something completely wrong like the guy thinking Durant played damn near the entire 2019 finals? And there's the same Jordan fan literally saying the 94-95 playoffs has an asterisk and should be stricken from MJs record because he quit only played a partial season, and then mockingly complained about other people putting asterisks on playoff series where somebody was injured (even though nobody did that).

All that happened on this thread within the past 5-10 pages or so. There is definitely a clear difference, lol. We aren't seeing that kind of behavior from LeBron fans.

As I have said I see no less bias from you than from extreme Jordan partisans. A retired mod demonstrating he can do argumentum ad hominem with flowery langusge doesn’t really change anything either.

I don’t put asterixes on any championships. I strongly suspect you want to put one on the 2019 title won by the Raptors because it doesn’t fit with your narrative that LeBron was beaten by invincible teams. Even the 2018 team was quite vincible, the WCF series against the Rockets was a quite close run thing.

The bottom line is that it is not ridiculous to regard other player as the GOAT. I am certainly on team Jordan and believe he has the stronger case, but it is not as if LeBronbhas no case.

I don’t take the stats and metrics from either side seriously, from pretty much all parties to be selective/ selected to suit a narrative.

I liked the part where you pointed to specific examples - oh wait, you didn't. I gave examples, and you gave diddly squat. I also like the assumptions you made. I see why iwaswitness stopped bothering with you. You haven't debated in good faith, so I'm done here.

Scrantonbulls 10, michaelm 0.

I detailed your fairly peurile tactic several pages ago. You make huge unsupported claims yourself, then try to pick minor holes in replies as if this invalidates an entire argument, and you have proven me correct yet again. Other than that ad hominem is all you have, and there are those who would consider a self awarded victory cheap.

I have never claimed to be unbiased, I am a GSW and Curry fan.

I actually don‘t really care if anyone wants to consider LeBron better than Jordan, he is ridiculously talented even if I prefer a more ensemble form of basketball and hence admire players like Curry and Tim Duncan, and more recently Jokic. I don’t see Jordan as a team player to the degree those guys are or were, but he did eventually decide to be more of a team player than he had been when he and his teams weren’t winning titles.

I mainly argue with you for two reasons, you embody the only other people are biased attitude which somewhat irritates me, and the asterix thing. You have actually taken me to task for saying I don’t believe in asterixes at all btw. Even though I am a GSW fan I object to an asterix being placed on a worthy title win by the Raptors, and if someone else was being hypocritical in your opinion about the 1995 title that is not my problem.

[Jamaaliver]

And counting.....

[Rust_Cohle]

Yikes!

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[Jamaaliver]

[Jamaaliver]

Yikes, indeed!!

Yikes!

Spoiler:

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[DOT]

You ever look at something and think, that looks kinda weird?

Like the pixel quality on the numbers in that image are off compared to the rest of it, so I did a reverse Google Image search, cause that's really easy to do, and it showed me this image from 2018:



Which is clearly where that image comes from, I don't know where those numbers come from. But given the graphic I found is old, they could be accurate. Just seems weird to use a graphic from 2018, poorly edit it, use in a conversation about a stat from 2020 on and pretend like it's an official ESPN thing.

[Jamaaliver]

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[Jamaaliver]

He's a goat alright...

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[ScrantonBulls]

You ever look at something and think, that looks kinda weird?

Like the pixel quality on the numbers in that image are off compared to the rest of it, so I did a reverse Google Image search, cause that's really easy to do, and it showed me this image from 2018:



Which is clearly where that image comes from, I don't know where those numbers come from. But given the graphic I found is old, they could be accurate. Just seems weird to use a graphic from 2018, poorly edit it, use in a conversation about a stat from 2020 on and pretend like it's an official ESPN thing.

You're talking about a guy who thought Durant played most of the 2019 finals. The guy clearly doesn't follow the NBA closely. There are a few Jordan fans on here who are very prone to falling for fake news.

[Jamaaliver]

Surprisingly not in the GOAT conversations nearly enough on this board.

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[ScrantonBulls]

Surprisingly not in the GOAT conversations nearly enough on this board.

Read on Twitter

Kobe is a GOAT candidate for casual fans, but people with a deeper understanding of the game/once you do a deep dive into his career, it's obvious he isn't a GOAT candidate.

[Jamaaliver]

Simpletons, huh?