The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[guynumber45]

Let's see what this "help" does in the playoffs against a competent defense. MPJ is pretty much useless against any defense that doesn't let him take open jumpshots because he has zero shot creation ability. And Murray also has zero ability to get by his defender post-injury. A team like OKC will put him in jail just like Minnesota did last year.

[_NoMas]

Let's see what this "help" does in the playoffs against a competent defense. MPJ is pretty much useless against any defense that doesn't let him take open jumpshots because he has zero shot creation ability. And Murray also has zero ability to get by his defender post-injury. A team like OKC will put him in jail just like Minnesota did last year.

Agreed. The popular narrative is that the Timberwolves 2 big line up has Denver’s number. In reality it was that Macdaniels, NAW, Edwards and co had Murray and MPJ in jail… and OKC has all the tools to replicate that.

[Special_Puppy]

Let's see what this "help" does in the playoffs against a competent defense. MPJ is pretty much useless against any defense that doesn't let him take open jumpshots because he has zero shot creation ability. And Murray also has zero ability to get by his defender post-injury. A team like OKC will put him in jail just like Minnesota did last year.

Murray+MPJ+AG have tended to hold up against strong teams. Braun+Westbrook are the ones who Denver should be worried about

[DimesandKnicks]

You asked earlier why Jokic is a better defender than Luka. We can get into a tone of things but let’s start with Jokic despite playing drop coverage as a big man, still moves about 5% more than Luka who's being asked to guard the wings. So yeah...part of it is also that Jokic is actually putting in effort. It's just seemingly not the effort you value which is a you thing.

Is this a verified fact? And do you mean on defense or for an entire game? Is it possible that Jokic moves 5 percent more because he’s put into PNR action while Doncic can actually defend a wing sitting at the corner three?

Doncic is pound for pound a better defensive rebounder, among the league leaders in steals, commits less fouls, averages .5 less deflections than Jokic recovers more lose balls on defense and even defends the rim better, albeit on less attempts…

But what makes Jokic better is that he moves around more?

[EmpireFalls]

This is the guy who’s defense you’re defending, his defense is embarrassing and a lot of it is simply effort

This is where you're losing any credibility. Jokic is NOT low effort on defense. This is just a flat out false statement.

Just anecdotally he didn’t do a thing tonight. Him and Luka played equal amounts of defense vs the hornets (zero)

[AleksandarN]

Is this a verified fact? And do you mean on defense or for an entire game? Is it possible that Jokic moves 5 percent more because he’s put into PNR action while Doncic can actually defend a wing sitting at the corner three?

Doncic is pound for pound a better defensive rebounder, among the league leaders in steals, commits less fouls, averages .5 less deflections than Jokic recovers more lose balls on defense and even defends the rim better, albeit on less attempts…

But what makes Jokic better is that he moves around more?

Pound for pound? Really? wtf is this. Talk about being disingenuous. Also contested rebounds Luka sits around 21.7 percent. Where as Jokic is at 36.2 percent. So it isn’t close. Stls and deflections Jokic is better. Now we can get to contested shots 5.2 vs 4.2 for Jokic. Also deflections is 3.8 to 3.2. So a sizeable lead in relation to the actual numbers. Btw .6 not .5.

[Peregrine01]

Let's see what this "help" does in the playoffs against a competent defense. MPJ is pretty much useless against any defense that doesn't let him take open jumpshots because he has zero shot creation ability. And Murray also has zero ability to get by his defender post-injury. A team like OKC will put him in jail just like Minnesota did last year.

Murray+MPJ+AG have tended to hold up against strong teams. Braun+Westbrook are the ones who Denver should be worried about

Murray and MPJ were in jail during that Minny series last year...they couldn't handle the physicality at all. The word is out now that Murray struggles against ball pressure and OKC is built for that like Minny was. I think it's one reason why Jokic wanted Westbrook. Even though he's a lot older, defenders don't press Russ cause of how explosive he is.

[dhsilv2]

Is this a verified fact? And do you mean on defense or for an entire game? Is it possible that Jokic moves 5 percent more because he’s put into PNR action while Doncic can actually defend a wing sitting at the corner three?

Doncic is pound for pound a better defensive rebounder, among the league leaders in steals, commits less fouls, averages .5 less deflections than Jokic recovers more lose balls on defense and even defends the rim better, albeit on less attempts…

But what makes Jokic better is that he moves around more?

1. yes this is a verified fact.
2. no, I'm only discussing on defense. That's why I said on defense.
3. Luka literally averages more fouls a game this year, but even if we take this year out. Luka contests far less shots...again low effort, doesn't move. So there's less opportunity to foul.

And I haven't the slightest clue what pound for pound means in rebounding. Either you rebound better or you don't.

[dhsilv2]

This is the guy who’s defense you’re defending, his defense is embarrassing and a lot of it is simply effort

This is where you're losing any credibility. Jokic is NOT low effort on defense. This is just a flat out false statement.

Just anecdotally he didn’t do a thing tonight. Him and Luka played equal amounts of defense vs the hornets (zero)

That is literally impossible for two guys to play "zero defense".

This all goes back to Elgee's last video showing that fans just don't know what they're watching. But if I'm wrong by all means, show video of Jokic not involved in the defensive play when he should be. And this I can't stress enough. Getting scored on, means you played defense. Not playing defense is when you're not bothering to be in the play and are off in never never land.

[DimesandKnicks]

Is this a verified fact? And do you mean on defense or for an entire game? Is it possible that Jokic moves 5 percent more because he’s put into PNR action while Doncic can actually defend a wing sitting at the corner three?

Doncic is pound for pound a better defensive rebounder, among the league leaders in steals, commits less fouls, averages .5 less deflections than Jokic recovers more lose balls on defense and even defends the rim better, albeit on less attempts…

But what makes Jokic better is that he moves around more?

1. yes this is a verified fact.
2. no, I'm only discussing on defense. That's why I said on defense.
3. Luka literally averages more fouls a game this year, but even if we take this year out. Luka contests far less shots...again low effort, doesn't move. So there's less opportunity to foul.

And I haven't the slightest clue what pound for pound means in rebounding. Either you rebound better or you don't.

I’m not asking if Luka is better than Jokic defensively. I’m asking…that if Jokic and Luka bother contribute to their teams defense in similiar ways: I.e

Rebounds, deflections, steals what makes Luka a bad defender and Jokic a good defender

[dhsilv2]

Is this a verified fact? And do you mean on defense or for an entire game? Is it possible that Jokic moves 5 percent more because he’s put into PNR action while Doncic can actually defend a wing sitting at the corner three?

Doncic is pound for pound a better defensive rebounder, among the league leaders in steals, commits less fouls, averages .5 less deflections than Jokic recovers more lose balls on defense and even defends the rim better, albeit on less attempts…

But what makes Jokic better is that he moves around more?

1. yes this is a verified fact.
2. no, I'm only discussing on defense. That's why I said on defense.
3. Luka literally averages more fouls a game this year, but even if we take this year out. Luka contests far less shots...again low effort, doesn't move. So there's less opportunity to foul.

And I haven't the slightest clue what pound for pound means in rebounding. Either you rebound better or you don't.

I’m not asking if Luka is better than Jokic defensively. I’m asking…that if Jokic and Luka bother contribute to their teams defense in similiar ways: I.e

Rebounds, deflections, steals what makes Luka a bad defender and Jokic a good defender

The critical piece that we've been going back and fourth on is about effort or more directly, staying involved in a play.

When you're in the play and you're accumulating steals, deflections, kicked balls...that tends to be good defense. This requires a player to put in effort on the defensive end, stay active, and read the play. It's not as valuable if you're like AI and you're gambling but constantly not involved.

For whatever it's worth Luka is a poor to average defender. Jokic is an average to slight plus defender. These guys aren't massively apart. And as others noted, the gap could almost be explained by the advantages Jokic has on these very metrics. But I think the bigger piece is that Jokic keeps moving on defense and stays involved while Luka can just kinda...stand around.

[DimesandKnicks]

1. yes this is a verified fact.
2. no, I'm only discussing on defense. That's why I said on defense.
3. Luka literally averages more fouls a game this year, but even if we take this year out. Luka contests far less shots...again low effort, doesn't move. So there's less opportunity to foul.

And I haven't the slightest clue what pound for pound means in rebounding. Either you rebound better or you don't.

I’m not asking if Luka is better than Jokic defensively. I’m asking…that if Jokic and Luka bother contribute to their teams defense in similiar ways: I.e

Rebounds, deflections, steals what makes Luka a bad defender and Jokic a good defender

The critical piece that we've been going back and fourth on is about effort or more directly, staying involved in a play.

When you're in the play and you're accumulating steals, deflections, kicked balls...that tends to be good defense. This requires a player to put in effort on the defensive end, stay active, and read the play. It's not as valuable if you're like AI and you're gambling but constantly not involved.

For whatever it's worth Luka is a poor to average defender. Jokic is an average to slight plus defender. These guys aren't massively apart. And as others noted, the gap could almost be explained by the advantages Jokic has on these very metrics. But I think the bigger piece is that Jokic keeps moving on defense and stays involved while Luka can just kinda...stand around.

I truly don’t know what your standard for effort is defensively. Jokic plays defense with his hands and feet, not his body. That’s not good defense. You can look at some of the videos in this thread, when you swipe down at the ball instead of going vertical or simply raising your hands, that’s gambling…it’s also low effort.

Luke contest 4.2 shots a game, Jokic contest 5.2, not a large margin when you consider your Center is suppose to be there to clean up on defense.

Idk how you can watch Jokic defend the rim and say that’s effort. It takes no effort to watch a player attempt layups. I don’t even think he’s getting credit for a “contested shot” on those plays.

[dhsilv2]

I’m not asking if Luka is better than Jokic defensively. I’m asking…that if Jokic and Luka bother contribute to their teams defense in similiar ways: I.e

Rebounds, deflections, steals what makes Luka a bad defender and Jokic a good defender

The critical piece that we've been going back and fourth on is about effort or more directly, staying involved in a play.

When you're in the play and you're accumulating steals, deflections, kicked balls...that tends to be good defense. This requires a player to put in effort on the defensive end, stay active, and read the play. It's not as valuable if you're like AI and you're gambling but constantly not involved.

For whatever it's worth Luka is a poor to average defender. Jokic is an average to slight plus defender. These guys aren't massively apart. And as others noted, the gap could almost be explained by the advantages Jokic has on these very metrics. But I think the bigger piece is that Jokic keeps moving on defense and stays involved while Luka can just kinda...stand around.

I truly don’t know what your standard for effort is defensively. Jokic plays defense with his hands and feet, not his body. That’s not good defense. You can look at some of the videos in this thread, when you swipe down at the ball instead of going vertical or simply raising your hands, that’s gambling…it’s also low effort.

Luke contest 4.2 shots a game, Jokic contest 5.2, not a large margin when you consider your Center is suppose to be there to clean up on defense.

Idk how you can watch Jokic defend the rim and say that’s effort. It takes no effort to watch a player attempt layups. I don’t even think he’s getting credit for a “contested shot” on those plays.

It takes a hell of a lot more effort for someone to be involved in enough plays for someone to post a "bad defense reel". If Jokic weren't putting in effort you'd not have those videos because he'd NOT BE ON FILM when the shots finally went up. This reminds me of why people think Klay used to be a good defender. He was great when you show him on the ball, but the 6 times a game he'd just let someone slip behind him for a back door layup, he was nowhere to be seen on the highlight. Same thing can be said for a quarter of the people you listed off as better defenders than Jokic.

I've said this before, but you sound like one of these people who'd say Gobert's defense isn't impactful in the playoffs and then post plays where his teammates blew coverage and he was left defending in impossible situations as an argument that a generational defender isn't great. Now Jokic isn't Gobert. But like Gobert he's active on defense and doesn't give up on impossible plays.

[DimesandKnicks]

The critical piece that we've been going back and fourth on is about effort or more directly, staying involved in a play.

When you're in the play and you're accumulating steals, deflections, kicked balls...that tends to be good defense. This requires a player to put in effort on the defensive end, stay active, and read the play. It's not as valuable if you're like AI and you're gambling but constantly not involved.

For whatever it's worth Luka is a poor to average defender. Jokic is an average to slight plus defender. These guys aren't massively apart. And as others noted, the gap could almost be explained by the advantages Jokic has on these very metrics. But I think the bigger piece is that Jokic keeps moving on defense and stays involved while Luka can just kinda...stand around.

I truly don’t know what your standard for effort is defensively. Jokic plays defense with his hands and feet, not his body. That’s not good defense. You can look at some of the videos in this thread, when you swipe down at the ball instead of going vertical or simply raising your hands, that’s gambling…it’s also low effort.

Luke contest 4.2 shots a game, Jokic contest 5.2, not a large margin when you consider your Center is suppose to be there to clean up on defense.

Idk how you can watch Jokic defend the rim and say that’s effort. It takes no effort to watch a player attempt layups. I don’t even think he’s getting credit for a “contested shot” on those plays.

It takes a hell of a lot more effort for someone to be involved in enough plays for someone to post a "bad defense reel". If Jokic weren't putting in effort you'd not have those videos because he'd NOT BE ON FILM when the shots finally went up. This reminds me of why people think Klay used to be a good defender. He was great when you show him on the ball, but the 6 times a game he'd just let someone slip behind him for a back door layup, he was nowhere to be seen on the highlight. Same thing can be said for a quarter of the people you listed off as better defenders than Jokic.

I've said this before, but you sound like one of these people who'd say Gobert's defense isn't impactful in the playoffs and then post plays where his teammates blew coverage and he was left defending in impossible situations as an argument that a generational defender isn't great. Now Jokic isn't Gobert. But like Gobert he's active on defense and doesn't give up on impossible plays.

You don't think this is a pathetically low standard to hold an ATG player too? Jokic is among the league leaders in DFGA while being at the very bottom of shots contested among starting big men. This means that while he may be in position to "defend" - he doesn't. How is that effort? That's like giving someone credit for closing out depsite players going right buy him or closing out with his hands down. That isn't good defense.

Being in position to play defense, but not actually playing defense doesn't make you a good defender. What you do while in position to play defense is what makes someone a good defender.

[dhsilv2]

I truly don’t know what your standard for effort is defensively. Jokic plays defense with his hands and feet, not his body. That’s not good defense. You can look at some of the videos in this thread, when you swipe down at the ball instead of going vertical or simply raising your hands, that’s gambling…it’s also low effort.

Luke contest 4.2 shots a game, Jokic contest 5.2, not a large margin when you consider your Center is suppose to be there to clean up on defense.

Idk how you can watch Jokic defend the rim and say that’s effort. It takes no effort to watch a player attempt layups. I don’t even think he’s getting credit for a “contested shot” on those plays.

It takes a hell of a lot more effort for someone to be involved in enough plays for someone to post a "bad defense reel". If Jokic weren't putting in effort you'd not have those videos because he'd NOT BE ON FILM when the shots finally went up. This reminds me of why people think Klay used to be a good defender. He was great when you show him on the ball, but the 6 times a game he'd just let someone slip behind him for a back door layup, he was nowhere to be seen on the highlight. Same thing can be said for a quarter of the people you listed off as better defenders than Jokic.

I've said this before, but you sound like one of these people who'd say Gobert's defense isn't impactful in the playoffs and then post plays where his teammates blew coverage and he was left defending in impossible situations as an argument that a generational defender isn't great. Now Jokic isn't Gobert. But like Gobert he's active on defense and doesn't give up on impossible plays.

You don't think this is a pathetically low standard to hold an ATG player too? Jokic is among the league leaders in DFGA while being at the very bottom of shots contested among starting big men. This means that while he may be in position to "defend" - he doesn't. How is that effort? That's like giving someone credit for closing out depsite players going right buy him or closing out with his hands down. That isn't good defense.

Being in position to play defense, but not actually playing defense doesn't make you a good defender. What you do while in position to play defense is what makes someone a good defender.

Nobody has said Jokic is a generational defender.

Nobody is saying Jokic is a good defender.

Words have meaning. I have consistently said Jokic is an AVERAGE to slight plus defender. Yeah, we agree it isn't GOOD defense. It's AVERAGE!

I've already even broken down the impact Jokic is having on those shots vs a Gobert and shown the impact on the box score to illustrate the difference in the two. Yet you're still here repeating the some crap without a single stat other than his rim protection which we all agree he's below average at.

[DimesandKnicks]

It takes a hell of a lot more effort for someone to be involved in enough plays for someone to post a "bad defense reel". If Jokic weren't putting in effort you'd not have those videos because he'd NOT BE ON FILM when the shots finally went up. This reminds me of why people think Klay used to be a good defender. He was great when you show him on the ball, but the 6 times a game he'd just let someone slip behind him for a back door layup, he was nowhere to be seen on the highlight. Same thing can be said for a quarter of the people you listed off as better defenders than Jokic.

I've said this before, but you sound like one of these people who'd say Gobert's defense isn't impactful in the playoffs and then post plays where his teammates blew coverage and he was left defending in impossible situations as an argument that a generational defender isn't great. Now Jokic isn't Gobert. But like Gobert he's active on defense and doesn't give up on impossible plays.

You don't think this is a pathetically low standard to hold an ATG player too? Jokic is among the league leaders in DFGA while being at the very bottom of shots contested among starting big men. This means that while he may be in position to "defend" - he doesn't. How is that effort? That's like giving someone credit for closing out depsite players going right buy him or closing out with his hands down. That isn't good defense.

Being in position to play defense, but not actually playing defense doesn't make you a good defender. What you do while in position to play defense is what makes someone a good defender.

Nobody has said Jokic is a generational defender.

Nobody is saying Jokic is a good defender.

Words have meaning. I have consistently said Jokic is an AVERAGE to slight plus defender. Yeah, we agree it isn't GOOD defense. It's AVERAGE!

I've already even broken down the impact Jokic is having on those shots vs a Gobert and shown the impact on the box score to illustrate the difference in the two. Yet you're still here repeating the some crap without a single stat other than his rim protection which we all agree he's below average at.

Sir, he is clearly - below average

Those stats are non "rim protection" it's actually it's actual overall defense

[dhsilv2]

You don't think this is a pathetically low standard to hold an ATG player too? Jokic is among the league leaders in DFGA while being at the very bottom of shots contested among starting big men. This means that while he may be in position to "defend" - he doesn't. How is that effort? That's like giving someone credit for closing out depsite players going right buy him or closing out with his hands down. That isn't good defense.

Being in position to play defense, but not actually playing defense doesn't make you a good defender. What you do while in position to play defense is what makes someone a good defender.

Nobody has said Jokic is a generational defender.

Nobody is saying Jokic is a good defender.

Words have meaning. I have consistently said Jokic is an AVERAGE to slight plus defender. Yeah, we agree it isn't GOOD defense. It's AVERAGE!

I've already even broken down the impact Jokic is having on those shots vs a Gobert and shown the impact on the box score to illustrate the difference in the two. Yet you're still here repeating the some crap without a single stat other than his rim protection which we all agree he's below average at.

Sir, he is clearly - below average

Those stats are non "rim protection" it's actually it's actual overall defense

Well, every single set of data we have says he's average to plus. Every credible person I've seen do a breakdown of his defense says he's average to a plus.

But a post who can't even post videos of actual bad defense keeps saying otherwise. I wonder?

But hey if you can actually in any way shape or form put some kind of quantitative spin on your view point that makes sense, I'll just give you this one. But I want you to show how someone not blowing coverage, maintaining extremely low foul rates, being involved in the play, and with near league leading hustle stats on defense is a below average defender.

We've already covered that pick and rolls where his mobility could be an issue doesn't work against him btw.

[DimesandKnicks]

Nobody has said Jokic is a generational defender.

Nobody is saying Jokic is a good defender.

Words have meaning. I have consistently said Jokic is an AVERAGE to slight plus defender. Yeah, we agree it isn't GOOD defense. It's AVERAGE!

I've already even broken down the impact Jokic is having on those shots vs a Gobert and shown the impact on the box score to illustrate the difference in the two. Yet you're still here repeating the some crap without a single stat other than his rim protection which we all agree he's below average at.

Sir, he is clearly - below average

Those stats are non "rim protection" it's actually it's actual overall defense

Well, every single set of data we have says he's average to plus. Every credible person I've seen do a breakdown of his defense says he's average to a plus.

But a post who can't even post videos of actual bad defense keeps saying otherwise. I wonder?

But hey if you can actually in any way shape or form put some kind of quantitative spin on your view point that makes sense, I'll just give you this one. But I want you to show how someone not blowing coverage, maintaining extremely low foul rates, being involved in the play, and with near league leading hustle stats on defense is a below average defender.

We've already covered that pick and rolls where his mobility could be an issue doesn't work against him btw.

Non quantitative: If you don't blow coverage but don't defend when you're covering someone, you're a bad defender.

Qualitative (which I've already done so not sure why you're acting like I only gave you a video:

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and “defend” at least 3 FG a game, Jokic ranks 7th (among 100) in FGA, and
2nd in FGM.

• Among this group he is 14th to last (69.5 percent) in DFG% ( How well players shoot when defended by him) (According to Defensive impact tracking, I could be wrong about what this pecentage comprises i.e overal vs rim protection)

• I believe the above metric are more indicative of help defense (not just rim protection, but I could be wrong) as the numbers
below suggest that they are when the player in question is the primary defender:

• Among NBA C’s who’ve played 30 games or more (60 players), Jokic has had the most FGA attempted on him (Overall, not just
at the rim), to which he defends at a DFG% of 49 percent (55 out of 61) this is compared to FG% (49.4 percent) which indicates
how well a player shoots when their defender isn’t actively defending them (again I can be wrong about how this is framed, I
don’t generally use advanced or tracking metrics). So players being defended by Jokic (i.e he’s actually putting pressure on
them, versus when he isn’t) are essentially shooting the same FG percentage.

• From within 6ft, Jokic ranks third among C’s who’ve played at least 30 games in DFGA while ranking 50th out of 61 in DFG%
(63.8 percent) vs 64.3 FG% percent, his differential (assumingly between when he’s putting pressure on the offender and not is
-0.6)

• In terms of differential % among this group from 6 ft in, Jokic ranks 48th our of 61.

• Overall he ranks 38 out of 61

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and contested at least three shots a game (Again this is overall, not at the
rim), a metric that seems to be dominated by big, Jokic ranks 129th (5.2) out of 203.

[dhsilv2]

Sir, he is clearly - below average

Those stats are non "rim protection" it's actually it's actual overall defense

Well, every single set of data we have says he's average to plus. Every credible person I've seen do a breakdown of his defense says he's average to a plus.

But a post who can't even post videos of actual bad defense keeps saying otherwise. I wonder?

But hey if you can actually in any way shape or form put some kind of quantitative spin on your view point that makes sense, I'll just give you this one. But I want you to show how someone not blowing coverage, maintaining extremely low foul rates, being involved in the play, and with near league leading hustle stats on defense is a below average defender.

We've already covered that pick and rolls where his mobility could be an issue doesn't work against him btw.

Non quantitative: If you don't blow coverage but don't defend when you're covering someone, you're a bad defender.

Qualitative (which I've already done so not sure why you're acting like I only gave you a video:

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and “defend” at least 3 FG a game, Jokic ranks 7th (among 100) in FGA, and
2nd in FGM.

• Among this group he is 14th to last (69.5 percent) in DFG% ( How well players shoot when defended by him) (According to Defensive impact tracking, I could be wrong about what this pecentage comprises i.e overal vs rim protection)

• I believe the above metric are more indicative of help defense (not just rim protection, but I could be wrong) as the numbers
below suggest that they are when the player in question is the primary defender:

• Among NBA C’s who’ve played 30 games or more (60 players), Jokic has had the most FGA attempted on him (Overall, not just
at the rim), to which he defends at a DFG% of 49 percent (55 out of 61) this is compared to FG% (49.4 percent) which indicates
how well a player shoots when their defender isn’t actively defending them (again I can be wrong about how this is framed, I
don’t generally use advanced or tracking metrics). So players being defended by Jokic (i.e he’s actually putting pressure on
them, versus when he isn’t) are essentially shooting the same FG percentage.

• From within 6ft, Jokic ranks third among C’s who’ve played at least 30 games in DFGA while ranking 50th out of 61 in DFG%
(63.8 percent) vs 64.3 FG% percent, his differential (assumingly between when he’s putting pressure on the offender and not is
-0.6)

• In terms of differential % among this group from 6 ft in, Jokic ranks 48th our of 61.

• Overall he ranks 38 out of 61

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and contested at least three shots a game (Again this is overall, not at the
rim), a metric that seems to be dominated by big, Jokic ranks 129th (5.2) out of 203.

OK, keep going.

[DimesandKnicks]

Well, every single set of data we have says he's average to plus. Every credible person I've seen do a breakdown of his defense says he's average to a plus.

But a post who can't even post videos of actual bad defense keeps saying otherwise. I wonder?

But hey if you can actually in any way shape or form put some kind of quantitative spin on your view point that makes sense, I'll just give you this one. But I want you to show how someone not blowing coverage, maintaining extremely low foul rates, being involved in the play, and with near league leading hustle stats on defense is a below average defender.

We've already covered that pick and rolls where his mobility could be an issue doesn't work against him btw.

Non quantitative: If you don't blow coverage but don't defend when you're covering someone, you're a bad defender.

Qualitative (which I've already done so not sure why you're acting like I only gave you a video:

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and “defend” at least 3 FG a game, Jokic ranks 7th (among 100) in FGA, and
2nd in FGM.

• Among this group he is 14th to last (69.5 percent) in DFG% ( How well players shoot when defended by him) (According to Defensive impact tracking, I could be wrong about what this pecentage comprises i.e overal vs rim protection)

• I believe the above metric are more indicative of help defense (not just rim protection, but I could be wrong) as the numbers
below suggest that they are when the player in question is the primary defender:

• Among NBA C’s who’ve played 30 games or more (60 players), Jokic has had the most FGA attempted on him (Overall, not just
at the rim), to which he defends at a DFG% of 49 percent (55 out of 61) this is compared to FG% (49.4 percent) which indicates
how well a player shoots when their defender isn’t actively defending them (again I can be wrong about how this is framed, I
don’t generally use advanced or tracking metrics). So players being defended by Jokic (i.e he’s actually putting pressure on
them, versus when he isn’t) are essentially shooting the same FG percentage.

• From within 6ft, Jokic ranks third among C’s who’ve played at least 30 games in DFGA while ranking 50th out of 61 in DFG%
(63.8 percent) vs 64.3 FG% percent, his differential (assumingly between when he’s putting pressure on the offender and not is
-0.6)

• In terms of differential % among this group from 6 ft in, Jokic ranks 48th our of 61.

• Overall he ranks 38 out of 61

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and contested at least three shots a game (Again this is overall, not at the
rim), a metric that seems to be dominated by big, Jokic ranks 129th (5.2) out of 203.

OK, keep going.