Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[Tripod]

We are 5.5 games out of a play in now with all the inuries and one of the hardest schedules. If we had just a bit of better health we could be a playin team right now.

Could be. But the play-in is crap. It's like a consolation prize: here, now you TOO can get smoked in the first round because you're a garbage squad. Might as well miss the playoffs at that point.

Except that isn't always true.

The Heat went to the Finals as a play in, right?

And hell, look at who in 6th....Detroit. Are they some juggernaut? That just as easily could have been the Raps with some luck and health.

[Tha Cynic]

We are 5.5 games out of a play in now with all the inuries and one of the hardest schedules. If we had just a bit of better health we could be a playin team right now.

Could be. But the play-in is crap. It's like a consolation prize: here, now you TOO can get smoked in the first round because you're a garbage squad. Might as well miss the playoffs at that point.

Except that isn't always true.

The Heat went to the Finals as a play in, right?

And hell, look at who in 6th....Detroit. Are they some juggernaut? That just as easily could have been the Raps with some luck and health.

That’s why they got Ingram and planning on sitting him out this year with a clear mandate to try to win next season. This roster can match up to the second tier in the East, but especially if they can get a high pick this year. This year they need to get a great pick and we’re more than halfway through the season. We can’t be winning more than those better than us in the standings. The East is definitely not some juggernaut that can’t be overcome with depth and a very good starting lineup. In the West I would say you need more superstar power to win.

[tsherkin]

The Heat went to the Finals as a play in, right?

You see Jimmy Butler on this team?

I asked where does .7 of a percentage point above league average in true shooting place Ant league wide? Somewhere between 100th to 150th?

Yes, I read your non-sequitur the first time. It isn't relevant to an Ant/Barnes comparison you yourself raised.

I’m sure the Raptors know the formula for higher TS%. You can be shooting poorly and putting up higher TS% by tweaking your game to focus on areas that TS% favours. Ask Wagner who’s shooting 31% from 3 while taking 6 a game. I expect they will change his shot profile next season given they are planning on winning. With another person taking on the main scoring their analytics team should be able to pin point areas on the court certain shots should come from. I don’t think they care about that right now.

Knowing the formula isn't the issue; absent ability and misdeployment are the issue. Well, not so much this year, because we are at least nominally trying to be bad. But they are key issues holding back Barnes from being a good choice to shoot this much when winning becomes the goal.

To me Barnes has always been more to a Garnett type who will focus more on defense and setting up others and will need a scorer beside him. Good news - most teams need a combination of two very good players who complement each other to win or just a a very good overall roster.

Scottie's a solid option as a #3, no doubt. We'll have to see what he looks like when we have a real focal choice on the roster to see if he can support enough volume at a reasonable level to be a decent #2. But yes, as all the projections of him from before the draft suggested, he's a quality choice as a defender and playmaker, and he's been quite useful in that regard.

[Pointgod]

It took missing a starter all year as well as 3 other rotational guys missing lots of time(BB,KO,JKW) and Barnes hurting his ankle and face, and playing at time 5 rookies, to even get near the bottom.

I think it was a reasonable thought that it would not happen again next year and would instead be a playin team. So they decided that the cost to add a 20+point scorer would outway the alternative. And giving this team a better #1 scoring option is a step in the right direction.

I’ve said from the beginning of the year that the front office should have traded Poeltl and just played the young players. Guarantee you we’d finish with a bottom 3 record. I get not everyone has the stomach to do that but these are some of the things you have to be willing to do in a proper rebuild.

And you had the Raptors making the play-in next year even if we didn’t trade for Ingram? I don’t know about that. What metrics are you looking at that would indicate that? We’re 24th in offensive rating, 25th in defensive rating and 26th in net rating. I think if we were a team looking to the play-in based on internal improvements, we’d show potential are top 20 or middle of the pack potential in one of these metrics this year.

We are 5.5 games out of a play in now with all the inuries and one of the hardest schedules. If we had just a bit of better health we could be a playin team right now.

I see your rationale but by that logic the Nets are also 1.5 games out of the play-in despite also missing players for large portions of the season. I wouldn’t consider them a strong chance to make the play-in next year based on internal growth alone because right now their offensive rating is 27th and defensive rating is 20th. There’s low bar to make the play-in in the East so you could make the same argument for 3 or 4 teams. I agree that with Ingram we should be next year but that’s the potential ceiling rather than the floor.

[mdenny]

The Heat went to the Finals as a play in, right?

You see Jimmy Butler on this team?

I asked where does .7 of a percentage point above league average in true shooting place Ant league wide? Somewhere between 100th to 150th?

Yes, I read your non-sequitur the first time. It isn't relevant to an Ant/Barnes comparison you yourself raised.

I’m sure the Raptors know the formula for higher TS%. You can be shooting poorly and putting up higher TS% by tweaking your game to focus on areas that TS% favours. Ask Wagner who’s shooting 31% from 3 while taking 6 a game. I expect they will change his shot profile next season given they are planning on winning. With another person taking on the main scoring their analytics team should be able to pin point areas on the court certain shots should come from. I don’t think they care about that right now.

Knowing the formula isn't the issue; absent ability and misdeployment are the issue. Well, not so much this year, because we are at least nominally trying to be bad. But they are key issues holding back Barnes from being a good choice to shoot this much when winning becomes the goal.

To me Barnes has always been more to a Garnett type who will focus more on defense and setting up others and will need a scorer beside him. Good news - most teams need a combination of two very good players who complement each other to win or just a a very good overall roster.

Scottie's a solid option as a #3, no doubt. We'll have to see what he looks like when we have a real focal choice on the roster to see if he can support enough volume at a reasonable level to be a decent #2. But yes, as all the projections of him from before the draft suggested, he's a quality choice as a defender and playmaker, and he's been quite useful in that regard.

Yes we just have to find our next player who we shall subject to our soulless criteria of "good ballplayer" determined by our extensive history and experience in gambling pools and video game simulations.

[tsherkin]

Yes we just have to find our next player who we shall subject to our soulless criteria of "good ballplayer" determined by our extensive history and experience in gambling pools and video game simulations.

This isn't really a useful remark in any way.

Scottie's a good player overall. He isn't a good volume scorer, and isn't well-suited to a role where he supports a significant load of self-created shots. He doesn't have the tools which go into doing that well. This is fairly obvious at this point. That doesn't mean he can't be a good player for us, because he's got a wide palette of other tools to use, but it's abundantly clear that he isn't suited to the role we have him filling right now. Trying to defend the idea that he is would be willful denial. He'll end up looking better when we can do what we did for RJ, but that'll require us to find someone who is good at that. Really, even Ingram might end up doing enough to enable Scottie to find those shots.

[Scase]

I’ve said from the beginning of the year that the front office should have traded Poeltl and just played the young players. Guarantee you we’d finish with a bottom 3 record. I get not everyone has the stomach to do that but these are some of the things you have to be willing to do in a proper rebuild.

And you had the Raptors making the play-in next year even if we didn’t trade for Ingram? I don’t know about that. What metrics are you looking at that would indicate that? We’re 24th in offensive rating, 25th in defensive rating and 26th in net rating. I think if we were a team looking to the play-in based on internal improvements, we’d show potential are top 20 or middle of the pack potential in one of these metrics this year.

We are 5.5 games out of a play in now with all the inuries and one of the hardest schedules. If we had just a bit of better health we could be a playin team right now.

I see your rationale but by that logic the Nets are also 1.5 games out of the play-in despite also missing players for large portions of the season. I wouldn’t consider them a strong chance to make the play-in next year based on internal growth alone because right now their offensive rating is 27th and defensive rating is 20th. There’s low bar to make the play-in in the East so you could make the same argument for 3 or 4 teams. I agree that with Ingram we should be next year but that’s the potential ceiling rather than the floor.

Orlando are 2 games back from the playOFFS, all while having a cheaper and younger core, and WAY more injuries sustained to better players than the Raps. Yet it's always the same excuse "injuries".

Not that the team is mediocre on a good day, nah, it's just injuries.

[mdenny]

Yes we just have to find our next player who we shall subject to our soulless criteria of "good ballplayer" determined by our extensive history and experience in gambling pools and video game simulations.

This isn't really a useful remark in any way.

Scottie's a good player overall. He isn't a good volume scorer, and isn't well-suited to a role where he supports a significant load of self-created shots. He doesn't have the tools which go into doing that well. This is fairly obvious at this point. That doesn't mean he can't be a good player for us, because he's got a wide palette of other tools to use, but it's abundantly clear that he isn't suited to the role we have him filling right now. Trying to defend the idea that he is would be willful denial. He'll end up looking better when we can do what we did for RJ, but that'll require us to find someone who is good at that. Really, even Ingram might end up doing enough to enable Scottie to find those shots.

You managed to type a whole bunch of words without saying "Scottie does not have a handle".

He doesn't dribble like a star player. Never has. Never dribbled like a point guard.

The crazy scotty ppl saw something that was like a mirage. And they blamed fred, they blamed nurse, they blamed siakam.

The worst part about it....the whole golden child routine was bestowed upon a young player who actually has bratty and immature qualities.

I'd go as far to say....Scottie is the most over-hyped, low quality character player in the history of the raptor franchise. I guess Bargnani was pretty lowly as far as character too. But Barnes gives him a run for his money.

Any raptor media who tried to tell the truth about this was attacked on social media with vitriol. There were conspiracy theories. The whole thing is hilarious.

Imagine dying on the scotty barnes hill. And changing your social media moniker lol.

[bonjovi0308]

Why would people debate the direction of the team under barnes thread?? Do you guys realize that the FO don't care what you think?

[Wise80]

I've been wanting to post this for awhile now and was looking for the right time. But it hasn't really been brought up. So at the risk of being flamed, here it goes.

Anybody else wondering how Barnes fits in with this group next year? The ball isn't going to be in his hands a lot with RJ, IQ and Ingram. He'll be the 4th scorer on the team. We know what happens when he doesn't feel involved, he plays with no energy. I'm not sure I like his game at his percentage of the cap as a guy who will be playing a lot more off ball.

Looking at the bigger picture. If he doesn't improve to be a top 2 option/playmaker (which i don't think he does), I don't see how his game fits on a top 8 team in the league. Especially when you consider his contract.

[Pointgod]

I've been wanting to post this for awhile now and was looking for the right time. But it hasn't really been brought up. So at the risk of being flamed, here it goes.

Anybody else wondering how Barnes fits in with this group next year? The ball isn't going to be in his hands a lot with RJ, IQ and Ingram. He'll be the 4th scorer on the team. We know what happens when he doesn't feel involved, he plays with no energy. I'm not sure I like his game at his percentage of the cap as a guy who will be playing a lot more off ball.

Looking at the bigger picture. If he doesn't improve to be a top 2 option/playmaker (which i don't think he does), I don't see how his game fits on a top 8 team in the league. Especially when you consider his contract.

I’ve been looking at the numbers and it’s interesting. Here’s the stats of the big 4 on catch and shoot 3’s

Barnes -27%, Ingram- 40%, RJ-37%, Quickley-31%

Based on the advanced stats it seems like it makes more sense to make Barnes or Quickley the offensive hub, but they might not be the most talented offensive players. Also how do you make sure all 4 guys are engaged when Barnes is probably the only guy comfortable playing off ball?

[tsherkin]

You managed to type a whole bunch of words without saying "Scottie does not have a handle".

It wasn't salient. His handle is at least one component. He protects the ball well enough advancing it up. He has a handle that he can and does use to navigate screens, gain lane entry. He isn't Kyrie and he dribbles a little high and upright a lot of the time, sure. It isn't the primary thing holding him back as a scorer, though, so it wasn't terribly important to mention.

It's fairly uncommon for a guy to go from a pre-draft profile of "defender and playmaker without a shot, handle or elite athleticism" and then turn into a really good scorer. So he was sort of in the hole from the start. He's done pretty well developing in certain areas, leaning on his strengths and stuff, but we have very much asked too much of him in terms of scoring.

[mdenny]

I've been wanting to post this for awhile now and was looking for the right time. But it hasn't really been brought up. So at the risk of being flamed, here it goes.

Anybody else wondering how Barnes fits in with this group next year? The ball isn't going to be in his hands a lot with RJ, IQ and Ingram. He'll be the 4th scorer on the team. We know what happens when he doesn't feel involved, he plays with no energy. I'm not sure I like his game at his percentage of the cap as a guy who will be playing a lot more off ball.

Looking at the bigger picture. If he doesn't improve to be a top 2 option/playmaker (which i don't think he does), I don't see how his game fits on a top 8 team in the league. Especially when you consider his contract.

The raps are clearly positioning themselves for an amagamating 2 for 1 trade and scotty is an option for being half that package.

A couple different directions it could go. If they draft a front court player who hits (ie Flagg) you could package scotty and RJ plus some picks for a star guard like Booker or morant. Or a smaller package for Trae or lamelo.

Or if you draft a guard you could try to trade scotty in a big package for a disgruntled front court player demanding a trade like giannis (if he becomes disgruntled). Say something like scotty + Iq + 4 picks/swaps.

My best guess is that he's not included in an amalganting trade but he shouldn't be off the table. Partly because he's the biggest trade piece we have. So getting a star player in return probably necessitates his inclusion.

If we hit on this pick then we have 6 starter quality players. So I expect a trade before next deadline. (That is unless the pick is a dud in the short-term)

Plus there's still a chance that the chemistry adding BI and the pick just happens to gel. In which case you'd have a really good 6th man (likely RJ) with a really solid starting 5. So I really like our position going forward. The past year has been really good for our FO imo.

[youngRAPZ]

I've been wanting to post this for awhile now and was looking for the right time. But it hasn't really been brought up. So at the risk of being flamed, here it goes.

Anybody else wondering how Barnes fits in with this group next year? The ball isn't going to be in his hands a lot with RJ, IQ and Ingram. He'll be the 4th scorer on the team. We know what happens when he doesn't feel involved, he plays with no energy. I'm not sure I like his game at his percentage of the cap as a guy who will be playing a lot more off ball.

Looking at the bigger picture. If he doesn't improve to be a top 2 option/playmaker (which i don't think he does), I don't see how his game fits on a top 8 team in the league. Especially when you consider his contract.

The raps are clearly positioning themselves for an amagamating 2 for 1 trade and scotty is an option for being half that package.

A couple different directions it could go. If they draft a front court player who hits (ie Flagg) you could package scotty and RJ plus some picks for a star guard like Booker or morant. Or a smaller package for Trae or lamelo.

Or if you draft a guard you could try to trade scotty in a big package for a disgruntled front court player demanding a trade like giannis (if he becomes disgruntled). Say something like scotty + Iq + 4 picks/swaps.

My best guess is that he's not included in an amalganting trade but he shouldn't be off the table. Partly because he's the biggest trade piece we have. So getting a star player in return probably necessitates his inclusion.

If we hit on this pick then we have 6 starter quality players. So I expect a trade before next deadline. (That is unless the pick is a dud in the short-term)

Plus there's still a chance that the chemistry adding BI and the pick just happens to gel. In which case you'd have a really good 6th man (likely RJ) with a really solid starting 5. So I really like our position going forward. The past year has been really good for our FO imo.

Imo you leave out another likely scenario that being raptors draft Maluach and he becomes the backup Center we need.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dballislife]

scottie can focus even more on his defense when we fully healthy his defense can get even better, he can just focus on being a efficient scorer, crash the boards more and focus on passing it and playing d

[mdenny]

scottie can focus even more on his defense when we fully healthy his defense can get even better, he can just focus on being a efficient scorer, crash the boards more and focus on passing it and playing d

I mentioned in the gamethread....scotty has taken a leap with his team defense. Almost reminding me a bit of Charles Oakley in directing traffic and controlling the paint. Ir's the only part of his game that I think has improved this year but it's still a good sign

[youngRAPZ]

scottie can focus even more on his defense when we fully healthy his defense can get even better, he can just focus on being a efficient scorer, crash the boards more and focus on passing it and playing d

I mentioned in the gamethread....scotty has taken a leap with his team defense. Almost reminding me a bit of Charles Oakley in directing traffic and controlling the paint. Ir's the only part of his game that I think has improved this year but it's still a good sign

Tbh with you I think everyone is being too hard on Scottish offensively. It’s pretty clear to me the coaching staff has given him the green light to expand his game now that VV and Siakam are no longer here. Next year I fully expect them to rein him in as they will actually be trying to win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tsherkin]

[
Tbh with you I think everyone is being too hard on Scottish offensively. It’s pretty clear to me the coaching staff has given him the green light to expand his game now that VV and Siakam are no longer here. Next year I fully expect them to rein him in as they will actually be trying to win.

I don't think most are being too harsh on him. I think we've discerned that he isn't fit for the role we're using... once we start trying to win. So, after this year. We'll see what everything looks like with Ingram next year. People are down on Scottie because he's having one of the worst volume scoring seasons in the last 15 years or so; he's been a horrific disaster as a scorer this year, and he hasn't really shown us anything to indicate that he's progressing towards being a lot better in the specific pattern of usage with which we've deployed him the past couple seasons.

But there is also discussion about how we can manage him as we are trying with RJ. Reining him in, as you suggest, and affording him different types of looks and lower volume responsibility, which should make it easier for him to be more effective once he has better players to shoulder more of the burden.

[youngRAPZ]

[
Tbh with you I think everyone is being too hard on Scottish offensively. It’s pretty clear to me the coaching staff has given him the green light to expand his game now that VV and Siakam are no longer here. Next year I fully expect them to rein him in as they will actually be trying to win.

I don't think most are being too harsh on him. I think we've discerned that he isn't fit for the role we're using... once we start trying to win. So, after this year. We'll see what everything looks like with Ingram next year. People are down on Scottie because he's having one of the worst volume scoring seasons in the last 15 years or so; he's been a horrific disaster as a scorer this year, and he hasn't really shown us anything to indicate that he's progressing towards being a lot better in the specific pattern of usage with which we've deployed him the past couple seasons.

But there is also discussion about how we can manage him as we are trying with RJ. Reining him in, as you suggest, and affording him different types of looks and lower volume responsibility, which should make it easier for him to be more effective once he has better players to shoulder more of the burden.

lol last paragraph is all I was trying to say you summed it up perfectly.

I just feel like I already made up my mind Scotty wasn’t going to be KL or Gianni’s after season 2 and when he bounced back in season 3 I knew his greatest impact on the team wouldn’t be his PPG but his defence and versatility and I am ok with that because I know basketball isn’t just about scoring points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tsherkin]

lol last paragraph is all I was trying to say you summed it up perfectly.

Cheers

I just feel like I already made up my mind Scotty wasn’t going to be KL or Gianni’s after season 2 and when he bounced back in season 3 I knew his greatest impact on the team wouldn’t be his PPG but his defence and versatility and I am ok with that because I know basketball isn’t just about scoring points.

I think it was clear pretty quickly what he is and isn't. His pre-draft profile has been fairly spot-on, but we've been trying to force him into other things out of need and desire more than any real hope that it would work. But scoring isn't everything, and Scottie does a lot of really good things.