Top 10 Offensive Players ever?

[rk2023]

I think 10 is somewhat an arbitrary cut off. Tiers work better in this convo.

GOAT:
Magic Jordan Nash LeBron

Fringe GOAT:
Oscar Curry Jokic

Level below:
West Bird Shaq Kobe

I think Luka and Shai can get to the level below and peak there if they develop into their late 20s.

I think Harden and Dirk have cases to be “level below”, but I’m unsure if I can get there.

Also, listed these chronologically within tiers. Not particular to a certain order, that’s a more nuanced debate to be had.

[70sFan]

I think 10 is somewhat an arbitrary cut off. Tiers work better in this convo.

GOAT:
Magic Jordan Nash LeBron

Fringe GOAT:
Oscar Curry Jokic

Level below:
West Bird Shaq Kobe

I think Luka and Shai can get to the level below and peak there if they develop into their late 20s.

I think Harden and Dirk have cases to be “level below”, but I’m unsure if I can get there.

Also, listed these chronologically within tiers. Not particular to a certain order, that’s a more nuanced debate to be had.

No Kareem hurts a lot...

[rk2023]

I think 10 is somewhat an arbitrary cut off. Tiers work better in this convo.

GOAT:
Magic Jordan Nash LeBron

Fringe GOAT:
Oscar Curry Jokic

Level below:
West Bird Shaq Kobe

I think Luka and Shai can get to the level below and peak there if they develop into their late 20s.

I think Harden and Dirk have cases to be “level below”, but I’m unsure if I can get there.

Also, listed these chronologically within tiers. Not particular to a certain order, that’s a more nuanced debate to be had.

No Kareem hurts a lot...

Good catch, I’d say he does rate up there with Harden and Dirk. I certainly would take him over Barkley Wade TMac CP3 for example

[wafflzgod]

Moreso just at their peak so factoring even less # of years sustained at that level than even a prime perspective:
Post 3Pt Line
1. 23/25 Jokic
2. 16 Steph
3. 17/18 LeBron
4. 91 Jordan
5. 87/90 Magic
6. 07 Nash
7. 86/87 Bird
8. 00 Shaq
9. 19 Harden
10. 06/08 Kobe
HM: 24 Luka

[kcktiny]

I was wondering what your guys list of offensive players in NBA History looks like. Preferably try and rank this relative to era. If I had to make one, I’d do… (Note: just prime/peak, no longevity. Meaning, having 10 offensive years vs 5 doesn’t make the former win due to volume of seasons)

Clearly your concept of a top offensive NBA player and mine are different.

Among your top 5 you list only high assist players that also scored as your top offensive players.

Wilt Chamberlain his first 7 seasons (1959-60 to 1965-66) in the league scored 51% more points than did any other player in the entire league, while also being the second best shooter (51.1% on 2s, only Bellamy shot better at 51.5%) in the league. He averaged 39.6 pts/g playing 47 min/g, and shot better on FTs than Shaq did his first 7 years in the league.

Chamberlain also averaged an estimated 550-600 offensive rebounds a season (7-8 offensive rebounds per game) those 7 years.

So who is supplying better offense - a player playing 47 min/g scoring close to 40 pts/g shooting 2nd best in the league (over 7 seasons) while also drawing a ton of fouls (13.6 FTA/g over 543 g) on the opposition routinely sending opposing starters to the bench in foul trouble while also grabbing 7-8 oreb/g? Or a Nash, James, Curry, Magic, or Harden in their 7 best seasons playing 34-38 min/g scoring at most 17-30 pts/g and passing for 7-12 ast/g?

I'd take the 40 pts/g on great shooting playing 47 min/g drawing a ton of fouls with 7-8 oreb/g in a heartbeat.

[homecourtloss]

Thought I’d put these here. Currently working on Kareem, Oscar, West, Harden, Shaq, and CP3.

Jokic is light blue, LeBron is orange, curry is yellow, Jordan is red, Nash is light green, and Magic is purple

[Doctor MJ]

I'll say:

Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Nash
LeBron James
Steph Curry
Nikola Jokic

The next natural thing to do is the ranking, but I'll beg off that with a key thing in mind:

Jokic may well be the best relative-to-era offensive player I've ever seen...but his era is still evolving.

I do feel a need to note that it doesn't seem right to have only Jokic from the most recent generation given how amazing the players are nowadays, so it's not hard to imagine putting - say - Luka Doncic on the list in the not-too-distant future.

[homecourtloss]

Obviously Jokic is in these discussions, but to keep climbing he needs to produce all-time playoff offenses. He’s yet to have a +10 rORtg series.



On that note, for those having Curry at the very top or near that, he also has not produced as many all time playoff offenses especially in the non-Durant years relative to others on this list.

[ceoofkobefans]

Just peaks

1. 16-18 Bron
2. 15-17 Steph
3. 90-92 MJ
4. 23-25 Jokic*
5. 87-89 Magic
6. 05-07 Nash
7. 06-08 Bean
8. 98-00 Shaq
9. 18-20 Harden
10. 63-65 Oscar
HM: 86-88 Bird, 77-79 Kareem, 12-14/16-18 KD

Considering longevity (more of a career lense)

1. LeBron
2. MJ
3. Steph
4. Magic
5. Kobe
6. Nash
7. Kareem
8. Jokic
9. Oscar
10. Shaq
HMs: Bird, CP3, KD

[penbeast0]

I was wondering what your guys list of offensive players in NBA History looks like. Preferably try and rank this relative to era. If I had to make one, I’d do…
(Note: just prime/peak, no longevity. Meaning, having 10 offensive years vs 5 doesn’t make the former win due to volume of seasons)
1. Steve Nash
2. LeBron James
3. Stephen Curry
4. Magic Johnson
5. James Harden
6. Nikola Jokic (assuming this year finishes)
7. Michael Jordan
8. Chris Paul
9. Oscar
10. West?

I’d like to see your guys list.

I see Nash in almost every list and Stockton not even mentioned once. And yet, their stats are pretty similar. Stockton has a decent lead in assists and a small one in efficiency, Nash has a 1-2 point a game lead in scoring (which isn't that much). Nash led better offenses but Stockton's Utah teams were competent offensively despite having grossly inferior offensive personnel relative to Phoenix except for Malone and eventually Hornacek. And when they did add Hornacek, their offenses were generally top 3 in the league. What impact stats we have also have Stockton very high. Plus his peak came a bit earlier in the peak defensive era of the NBA where Nash's peak was a decade later when offenses were reasserting themselves.

I don't see the kind of huge gap people seem to be implying here between their offensive capabilities.

[ShotCreator]

I don't think it's simple enough to just make a single list.

Different guys are better or worse under different circumstances. Playoffs, fit, load-carrying, ceiling raising, how they were defended, era, etc.

With proper fit, Nash could very well be #1. Or Magic. Or Curry. But none scaled their volume up in the playoffs like Jordan, Kawhi, Jokic, or LeBron.

Kawhi Leonard could easily have a place in this if it's peak/prime only.

I really believe Shaq demands a place in this list. Probably over guys like Harden, Curry, and CP3. Or at least on their level. His playoff impact is enormous. But in the regular season, I could see how one would put those 3 guards over him.

LeBron and Jordan check the most boxes on consistency and playoff play. They're not the easiest guys to play with however and their approaches were worse/more flawed than guys like the Point Guards listed. Which counts.

[Elpolo_14]

I will do as Playoff > Regular Season. Also ability to generate AtG offense is due to the attention the player bring with his scoring ability combine with the skills to pass + read the floor ( to maximize your team offense and manipulate the opposite team defense ). Not to forget the ability to bring your production against an Elite Defense or BITW Defense in the playoff. I also factor in Longevity of you offense ( as how long you were able to impact/improve your team on that end ). Peak Prime Offense still get value tho as how high were you able to Uplift your team offense with the support you get. I usually value both floor rising ( being able to generate Impact with minimal help or lack of help )offense the same as ceiling rising ( being able to sustain impact with other great player by fitting/adapting)
1. Lebron
2. MJ
3. Curry
4. Magic
5. Nash
6. Jokic
7. Oscar
8. Kareem
9. Shaq
10. Kobe

HM. Bird Harden West KD

[Doctor MJ]

I see Nash in almost every list and Stockton not even mentioned once. And yet, their stats are pretty similar. Stockton has a decent lead in assists and a small one in efficiency, Nash has a 1-2 point a game lead in scoring (which isn't that much). Nash led better offenses but Stockton's Utah teams were competent offensively despite having grossly inferior offensive personnel relative to Phoenix except for Malone and eventually Hornacek. And when they did add Hornacek, their offenses were generally top 3 in the league. What impact stats we have also have Stockton very high. Plus his peak came a bit earlier in the peak defensive era of the NBA where Nash's peak was a decade later when offenses were reasserting themselves.

I don't see the kind of huge gap people seem to be implying here between their offensive capabilities.

Well I think the aspect of Stockton's huge assist number has been putting him in debates with Nash ever since Nash emerged as an MVP - along with a question of whether Malone was actually the MVP of the Jazz. It's interesting that I don't ever feel like the argument is settled, but as you point out, Nash is the one who tends to show up on these lists considerably more so than Stockton.

I would emphasize that I think it's critical to not take box score for a reasonable proxy for how good these guys are. To me, we have to go to the impact data.

Now, Stockton very much shines in that data, however, him scoring really well on defensive impact is a major part of that.

If we go simply by binning top performances in nbarapm's default metric (4 year):

Overall RAPM
Stockton ranks #1 2 times, while Nash peaks at #2 and Malone peaks at #14.
Nash ranks Top 5 6 times, Stockton 3, Malone 0.

Offensive RAPM
Nash ranks #1 7 times, while Malone peaks at #3 and Stockton peaks at #6.
Nash ranks Top 5 8 times, Malone 2 times, Stockton 0.

Notes:

1. As always, this doesn't include most of Malone & Stockton's prime, and thus it's possible both'd look way better if we had all that data, but we tend to bring the data up we have when we discuss Stockton because he looks surprisingly good in his later years.

2. As always, ORAPM & DRAPM are more flawed as metrics than overall RAPM because a) lineup choices might have either an offensive or defensive bias, and b) because defensive actions can have offensive impact and vice versa.

3. Nevertheless, the data we have still sides with Malone over Stockton as the most impactful offensive player per minute when he's in prime, which leaves me feeling like if you're going to say Stockton's offense was more impressive than Nash's, you probably have to say the same for Malone over Nash...which gets us back to the question of why a Jazz team with not one but two players better at offense than Nash, why did Nash run more successful offenses with greater signs of impact than either?

4. Of course, during the years in question for Stockton, he's mostly played considerably more limited minutes than Malone or other stars. This wasn't a limitation when he was younger, but for the data we have, it's a reason why I'm a bit cautious treating Stockton as if he's truly playing a role puts him up there with the superstar MVP contenders. What he's doing is very impressive without question even without considering his age, but I don't think Stockton really should have been an MVP candidate in these years when we consider this.

5. Finally backing off the stats and just focusing on the offensive play:

Stockton just wasn't aggressively punishing the defense's errors the way Nash was when we watch the film. Stockton was clearly much more working within a Malone-first scheme, and while it makes sense that people think Stockton could have done something more Nash-like, in practice, he just wasn't.

[OhayoKD]

I was wondering what your guys list of offensive players in NBA History looks like. Preferably try and rank this relative to era. If I had to make one, I’d do…
(Note: just prime/peak, no longevity. Meaning, having 10 offensive years vs 5 doesn’t make the former win due to volume of seasons)
1. Steve Nash
2. LeBron James
3. Stephen Curry
4. Magic Johnson
5. James Harden
6. Nikola Jokic (assuming this year finishes)
7. Michael Jordan
8. Chris Paul
9. Oscar
10. West?

I’d like to see your guys list.

I see Nash in almost every list and Stockton not even mentioned once. And yet, their stats are pretty similar. Stockton has a decent lead in assists and a small one in efficiency

Poster you're replying to has their own proxies for playmaking (creations, edtos) they value alot more than assists which they have Nash doing much better than Stockton in.

That's probably the crux of it. As far as lebronny is concerned Nash is just a much better playmaker than Stockton

Stockton just wasn't aggressively punishing the defense's errors the way Nash was when we watch the film. Stockton was clearly much more working within a Malone-first scheme, and while it makes sense that people think Stockton could have done something more Nash-like, in practice, he just wasn't.

The argument isn't that stockton wasn't punishing errors, it's that he wasn't pressuring defenses into making errors in the first place.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I haven't seen Dantley mentioned yet. He wouldn't be top 10, but would he be Top 20? 25? 30?

I know he was a bit of a black hole, and he never won anything, but he's one of the most efficient volume scorers ever relative to league.

[penbeast0]

I see Nash in almost every list and Stockton not even mentioned once. And yet, their stats are pretty similar. Stockton has a decent lead in assists and a small one in efficiency

Poster you're replying to has their own proxies for playmaking (creations, edtos) they value alot more than assists which they have Nash doing much better than Stockton in.

That's probably the crux of it. As far as lebronny is concerned Nash is just a much better playmaker than Stockton

Stockton just wasn't aggressively punishing the defense's errors the way Nash was when we watch the film. Stockton was clearly much more working within a Malone-first scheme, and while it makes sense that people think Stockton could have done something more Nash-like, in practice, he just wasn't.

The argument isn't that stockton wasn't punishing errors, it's that he wasn't pressuring defenses into making errors in the first place.

Has he done prime breakdowns to get those numbers for Stockton? Can you link me to them, I'd like very much to see them.

[migya]

Chamberlain is the best Center offensively ever with the exception of maybe Jokic. He is likely top ten himself.

[penbeast0]

Chamberlain is the best Center offensively ever with the exception of maybe Jokic. He is likely top ten himself.

Why do you have him rated higher offensively than Kareem? I do think he was a more effective defender but I think it's close or slightly weighted in favor of Kareem offensively.

[migya]

Chamberlain is the best Center offensively ever with the exception of maybe Jokic. He is likely top ten himself.

Why do you have him rated higher offensively than Kareem? I do think he was a more effective defender but I think it's close or slightly weighted in favor of Kareem offensively.

I don't think Kareem reached as high as Chamberlain's Philly seasons, where he passed so well while still scoring well. It's close and maybe for career Kareem is slightly better.

[ShotCreator]

I'm giving this one a go now.

4-5 year Prime only, with good fit:

1. 05 - 09 Nash
2. 88 - 92 Jordan
3. 85 - 90 Magic
4. 09 - 14 LeBron
5. 21 - 25 Jokic
6. 98 - 03 Shaq
7. 14 - 19 Curry
8. 17 - 21 Harden
9. 20 - 24 Doncic
10. 84 - 88 Bird

HM:06 - 10 Wade, 17 - 21 Kawhi, 06 - 10 Kobe, 07 - 11 Dirk, 12 - 17 Paul, 72 - 77 Kareem, in that order.

Kareem is by far the best defender here.

Oscar and West omitted because I genuinely don't know. However I'd ballpark Oscar somewhere around the 7 - 10 area. West could be lower.

Curry and Bird suffer huge playoff resiliency issues which hurt them. Doncic is an oddball. Playoff riser outside his by far best RS year in 2024.

Kawhi's chopped up prime of injuries hurts him badly. Incredible peak.

This is my gut feeling list. I'm open to wildly changing it based on different criteria. But I do think that's a solid top 6 when it comes to RS/PS offense performance.