RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[MikRay]

lol
These results show how little the readers know about ball

[michaelm]

A few players have a case for GOAT depending on the indicators we use and how we weigh peak versus longevity. I think a compelling argument can be made for Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Jordan, LeBron or Curry, to name a few.

Among them, I think the players with the best cases are probably Russell, Kareem, Jordan and LeBron. They have the best combination of team success, individual statistics, and individual awards, while ticking the box for high peak and reasonable longevity.

But to illustrate the complexities of the discussion:
- Team success is largely contextual and not driven by just one individual player
- Individual statistics tell narrow stories and are subject to interpretation
- Individual awards are based largely on voter perception and not on objective criteria
- How we value peak or longevity in relation to the other is largely arbitrary

This noise is compounded by the fact that many of the best impact metrics post-RAPM like EPM don't go back in time far enough to provide data for a direct comparison (though it wouldn't solve the peak vs longevity conundrum).

But through the noise, I think Jordan emerges as the best candidate for GOAT. I think he has the best combination of those different factors, possibly because I value longevity less once it hits a certain threshold.

Argument 1

Cumulative stats will always favor LeBron because he was able to have a much longer career. Is it helped by the era he played in or is it his his own merit? Can it be held against him or on the contrary serve to help him in this comparison? I think the answers to these questions are somewhat arbitrary. But using them means the case for LeBron rests largely on the fact that he had a longer career. Which isn't necessarily unfair, but it is quite arbitrary.

Jordan's career was much more condensed. Yet he had more team success, more individual awards, while putting up incredible numbers as well (though not as well-rounded as LeBron's beyond the edge in scoring).

Purely intuitively, I find that much more impressive than spreading achievements (let alone fewer) across a longer period of time.

Argument 2

Another area where Jordan separates himself is here in my opinion. Through his prime, Jordan was always the favorite, and he always lived up to his status as a favorite. There was an inevitability to Jordan (one that as a side note elevated him to a God-like status that LeBron never reached).

LeBron did face better teams than Jordan. I think one could argue he had better teammates than Jordan throughout most of his post-2010 career. I don't know how to balance those two realities. But LeBron was too often the underdog despite playing on stacked rosters. Why were the pre-KD Warriors such heavy favorites against him? Why did it require a historical upset and injuries to Curry and Bogut for LeBron's stacked Cavaliers team to beat Golden State? (I consider those two championships a wash in light of adverse circumstances both teams faced in consecutive years). Though the Warriors' success rested to significant degree on their defense, I think an argument can be made that Curry at his peak was a better player than LeBron. And this is one area where I really struggle with the LeBron case.

I agree with most of this but will disagree on one point.

Team success is largely influenced by the leader. In the case of Jordan, he's one of the best leaders if not the best when it comes to getting the team in line and prepared for the playoffs.
After seeing so many Lebron teammates and even Lebron himself make defensive mistakes, I can't agree on that point.

A leader influences the team. Jordan not only made practices more rigorous than the games, "made the games easy" (according to Kerr, Armstrong among others), but also created a club to get everyone in the gym early and ready for the Pistons/tough teams they'd face.

That's an aspect of the equation that no one addresses and where Jordan is head and shoulders above Lebron in this debate. When you can 3-peat with Scottie and two different supporting casts (especially with Cartwrite at center), you're a unicorn.

Whenever there was a defensive lapse (not often), you saw Jordan talking to the player immediately getting on them about it. This included even Scottie. ... Poor Luc, honestly.

Boxers train brutally so that the fights are easy. Jordan is the best basketball equivalent of this, and he made sure that the teammates abided as well or they would have a tough, tough time. If anything, the results speak for themselves.

I would agree with this, so I don't think we're in disagreement.

My point was moreso that we can't just look at team success at face value, for instance by counting championship rings, to rank players. It's a pretty basic point, but I mentioned it to illustrate how much noise there is and how a lot of the criteria we can use are inherently subject to interpretation (and arbitrary manipulation).

Otherwise, nobody's catching Bill Russell, Sam Jones or John Havlicek (although I do believe Russell has a case for GOAT).

I agree Jordan was a better leader tham LeBron. How he was able to rein in Pippen and keep him engaged despite his (Pippen's) undependable and disloyal character throughout their Bulls career is proof of his (Jordan's) leadership. LeBron didn't manage to keep Kyrie at his side in Cleveland for instance, and I think Kyrie and Pippen shared some similarities as basketball teammates or characters. It had a tangible impact on winning - Kyrie's departure from LeBron essentially closed the Cavs window and LeBron had to seek exile to be in a position to contend again. I think this matters.

By all accounts, LeBron has been an excellent leader but Jordan - while not necessarily the most liked by his teammates - was the more effective and thus better leader in my opinion.

He perhaps drove his teams more than he led them. but I guess it worked.

[Iwasawitness]

He's a goat alright...

Read on Twitter

As was already discussed and proven in the thread made about this very thing… this stat just isn’t true.

[ScrantonBulls]

FAIR ENOUGH

[Iwasawitness]

He's a goat alright...

Read on Twitter

As was already discussed and proven in the thread made about this very thing… this stat just isn’t true.

You're talking to the guy who thought Durant played nearly the entire 2019 finals against the Raptors... The claim in that tweet he posted is so easily verifiable by doing a google search. It takes literally 5 seconds to find out that it is false. Instead, he just decides to blindly spread a false claim.

Why does this happen so frequently with Jordan fans here? bledredwine too with the 3 lies in my signature, along with all the other false claims he makes. MJ has a great claim as the GOAT. Why do so many have to resort to lies and posting complete BS about LeBron? It's not difficult to make a compelling case for MJ using simple knowledge and statistics. Why resort to this type of slop?

He at least admitted to being wrong about that and even ate crow. I don’t know why you’re grouping him in with the others. He gets a pass.

[bledredwine]

Surprisingly not in the GOAT conversations nearly enough on this board.

Read on Twitter

2010, 7 years into Lebron's career. People here pretend to forget or just bash him on efficiency.

Watch on YouTube

[Jamaaliver]

Watch on YouTube

[Jamaaliver]

Surprisingly not in the GOAT conversations nearly enough on this board.

2010, 7 years into Lebron's career. People here pretend to forget or just bash him on efficiency.

Watch on YouTube

Exactly!!!

They're using hindsight because most of them aren't old enough to actually have lived through these eras where players, coaches, media readily held up certain players as the best in the world at a given time.

I believe the term is revisionist history.

[MavsDirk41]

lol
These results show how little the readers know about ball

I agree. Kareem should have way more votes.

[DOT]

Surprisingly not in the GOAT conversations nearly enough on this board.

2010, 7 years into Lebron's career. People here pretend to forget or just bash him on efficiency.

Watch on YouTube

Exactly!!!

They're using hindsight because most of them aren't old enough to actually have lived through these eras where players, coaches, media readily held up certain players as the best in the world at a given time.

I believe the term is revisionist history.

Name one aspect in which Kobe is better than MJ.

[bledredwine]

2010, 7 years into Lebron's career. People here pretend to forget or just bash him on efficiency.

Watch on YouTube

Exactly!!!

They're using hindsight because most of them aren't old enough to actually have lived through these eras where players, coaches, media readily held up certain players as the best in the world at a given time.

I believe the term is revisionist history.

Name one aspect in which Kobe is better than MJ.

further point to why this debate sucks….
How about Lebron?

Handling, footwork, arsenal of moves, midrange obviously, freethrows, the quote in my sig (Kobe’s not great but at least 1.5x the efficiency of lebron with 25%)

People don’t realize that when you are forced to put your team on your back with scoring, you take harder shots and will be less efficient. Even Lebron in his only finals where he really had that forced situation, he got 35 ppg in the finals… on .397 from the field.

Lebron called Kobe the greatest at the time because at the time, Kobe was known as the greatest.

[DOT]

Exactly!!!

They're using hindsight because most of them aren't old enough to actually have lived through these eras where players, coaches, media readily held up certain players as the best in the world at a given time.

I believe the term is revisionist history.

Name one aspect in which Kobe is better than MJ.

further point to why this debate sucks….
How about Lebron?

Handling, footwork, arsenal of moves, midrange obviously, freethrows, the quote in my sig (Kobe’s not great but at least 1.5x the efficiency of lebron with 25%)

People don’t realize that when you are forced to put your team on your back with scoring, you take harder shots and will be less efficient. Even Lebron in his only finals where he really had that forced situation, he got 35 ppg in the finals… on .397 from the field.

Lebron called Kobe the greatest at the time because at the time, Kobe was known as the greatest.

So, nothing

There's nothing that Kobe was better at than MJ

Therefore Kobe has no GOAT argument.

[DOT]

And that's why MJ stans love Kobe

Because Kobe never had and never will have an argument over MJ. No matter how high you want to place him, he will always be 2nd best at everything he did

Therefore he's not a threat to MJ, meaning they can unconditionally appreciate him instead of having to try and put him down.

[Jamaaliver]

Name one aspect in which Kobe is better than MJ.

I never said that he was.

But from 1999 - 2005, he had as much a claim as any player to the title of 'Best Player in the Game'.

With 3 NBA titles by age 24, KOBE was at one time on pace to challenge MJ as the GOAT.

Then...life happened.

• The Lakers dissolved
• Kobe was arrested
• Duncan and the Spurs emerged as a legitimate dynasty
• Lebron entered the league

[DOT]

Name one aspect in which Kobe is better than MJ.

I never said that he was.

But from 1999 - 2005, he had as much a claim as any player to the title of Best Player in the Game.

With 3 titles by age 24, KOBE was at one time on pace to challenge MJ as the GOAT.

Then...life happened.

Then he has no place in the GOAT discussion. That is what this topic is about, if you can remember.

[Jamaaliver]

Then he has no place in the GOAT discussion. That is what this topic is about, if you can remember.

Kobe has as much a place in GOAT discussions as Lebron and Magic.

Best players of their respective eras.

[DOT]

Then he has no place in the GOAT discussion. That is what this topic is about, if you can remember.

Kobe has as much a place in GOAT discussions as Lebron and Magic.

Best players of their respective eras.

If Kobe has no argument over MJ, there is no further discussion. Logically if one player is inferior to another in all aspects, he cannot ever be the GOAT

It's quite simple logic, I'm not sure what part you're not grasping.

[Jamaaliver]

[DOT]

Also, it's kind of wild to say Kobe was the best player in the game during the time his teammate won 3 straight FMVPs to his 0. I believe that's what they call revisionist history, Kobe's peak was the late-00s, not the early-00s.

[-Luke-]

Name one aspect in which Kobe is better than MJ.

I never said that he was.

But from 1999 - 2005, he had as much a claim as any player to the title of 'Best Player in the Game'.

With 3 NBA titles by age 24, KOBE was at one time on pace to challenge MJ as the GOAT.

Then...life happened.

• The Lakers dissolved
• Kobe was arrested
• Duncan and the Spurs emerged as a legitimate dynasty
• Lebron entered the league

Shaq was clearly the best player on the Lakers from 1999 to at least 2002, so how does Kobe have a claim for best player in the league in any of those years?

Edit: DOT was faster.