The Jokic vs. SGA "Debate" Settles LeBron vs. MJ

KembaWalker · Post #41 » by **KembaWalker** » Sun Feb 23, 2025 11:09 pm

Homer38 wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:Jokic is better than LeBron ever was (not "greater", yet at least), and they're all better than SGA. i dont understand the comp

Your guy was 1-30 in his career vs LeBron....

Very relevant, keep up the good work

EmpireFalls · Post #42 » by **EmpireFalls** » Sun Feb 23, 2025 11:24 pm

Homer38 wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:Jokic is better than LeBron ever was (not "greater", yet at least), and they're all better than SGA. i dont understand the comp

Your guy was 1-30 in his career vs LeBron....

I’m glad that after all these years, someone finally settled the long-standing Kemba Walker vs. LeBron James debate.

Heej · Post #43 » by **Heej** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 12:09 am

Talent does beat out archetypes but in Jordan and LeBron's case the talent differential is infinitesimal so both sides often resort to archetypeal arguments when expressing why their guy is better than the other

I do believe Jordan's impact is boosted by Pippen in a way that LeBron's best teammates outside of AD wasn't able to replicate for him

IlikeSHAIguys · Post #44 » by **IlikeSHAIguys** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 12:33 am

Okay guys. You don't need SGA to say Lebron is better than MJ lol. Like come on. It's sorta annoying how every thread about Shai is just some indirect MJ Lebron thing.

falcolombardi · Post #45 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:25 am

KembaWalker wrote:Jokic is better than LeBron ever was (not "greater", yet at least), and they're all better than SGA. i dont understand the comp

And the reason for jokic being better is...?

Cause a lot of the arguments used against lebron hold up more strongly vs jokic such as competition faced (in jokic ring year), lower ceiling teams, etc

He just has a lot less dedicated haters to nitpick him that much

Special_Puppy · Post #46 » by **Special_Puppy** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:34 am

Why are you guys taking a schitzo post so seriously lol

1993Playoffs · Post #47 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:38 am

Jokic and LeBron are better than MJ ever was (just not greater yet ) imo.

jjgp111292 · Post #48 » by **jjgp111292** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 3:37 am

Redmoon wrote:I like how no one is mentioning Shai’s on/off when that theoretically propels him ahead of everyone in the league atm.

Silly Redmoon, on/off only matters when it favors LeBron! (Or if it favors Shai in comparison to incomplete MJ stats that favor MJ anyway but are allegedly cooked)

AEnigma · Post #49 » by **AEnigma** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 3:58 am

jjgp111292 wrote:
Redmoon wrote:I like how no one is mentioning Shai’s on/off when that theoretically propels him ahead of everyone in the league atm.
Silly Redmoon, on/off only matters when it favors LeBron! (Or if it favors Shai in comparison to incomplete MJ stats that favor MJ anyway but are allegedly cooked)

Does not seem like you have a good sense of anything you attempt to reference here.

homecourtloss · Post #50 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:02 am

jjgp111292 wrote:
Redmoon wrote:I like how no one is mentioning Shai’s on/off when that theoretically propels him ahead of everyone in the league atm.
Silly Redmoon, on/off only matters when it favors LeBron! (Or if it favors Shai in comparison to incomplete MJ stats that favor MJ anyway but are allegedly cooked)

I gather from this post you don’t even know what on/off is.

lessthanjake · Post #51 » by **lessthanjake** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:10 am

Just to be clear on this, Jokic has a higher on-off so far this season than SGA (+19.9 for Jokic vs. +16.6 for SGA), but SGA has the higher team net rating when on the court than Jokic (+18.5 for SGA vs. +11.7 for Jokic). Personally, I think on-off needs to be seen in context with that ON value, since I think it’s harder to raise a team the higher the heights the team is going to. So I personally would say +16.6 on-off with a +18.5 ON looks better to me than +19.9 on-off with a +11.7 ON. Reasonable minds can differ on that though, and obviously this is just one piece of the overall data puzzle.

70sFan · Post #52 » by **70sFan** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 6:25 am

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Okay guys. You don't need SGA to say Lebron is better than MJ lol. Like come on. It's sorta annoying how every thread about Shai is just some indirect MJ Lebron thing.

Especially mad since Shai is way cooler than either 8-)

rk2023 · Post #53 » by **rk2023** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 6:42 am

Shai is more of a Manu-West hybrid than anything to me

falcolombardi · Post #54 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 6:51 am

rk2023 wrote:Shai is more of a Manu-West hybrid than anything to me

I get ginobili because of how he uses tricky ballhandling/footwork to get space for jumpers and drives but i am confused by west comparision

rk2023 · Post #55 » by **rk2023** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:09 am

falcolombardi wrote:
rk2023 wrote:Shai is more of a Manu-West hybrid than anything to me

I get ginobili because of how he uses tricky ballhandling/footwork to get space for jumpers and drives but i am confused by west comparision

• Fearless driver who’s more floor bound
• Very good defensive anticipator & playmaker
• Former-most style coupled with all-world midrange makes them a magnet for fouls (meant in positive way)

Much more high-level than micro skill wise, it’s hard to granularly compare guys 60 years apart.

And as far as micro-skills, I actually think comparing West’s contemporary Oscar to the 2nd stint Cavs Bron or Luka is decently closer. Maybe?

70sFan · Post #56 » by **70sFan** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 8:52 am

rk2023 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
rk2023 wrote:Shai is more of a Manu-West hybrid than anything to me

I get ginobili because of how he uses tricky ballhandling/footwork to get space for jumpers and drives but i am confused by west comparision

• Fearless driver who’s more floor bound
• Very good defensive anticipator & playmaker
• Former-most style coupled with all-world midrange makes them a magnet for fouls (meant in positive way)

Much more high-level than micro skill wise, it’s hard to granularly compare guys 60 years apart.

And as far as micro-skills, I actually think comparing West’s contemporary Oscar to the 2nd stint Cavs Bron or Luka is decently closer. Maybe?

Their midrange game and ability to make very tough shots are functionally very similar as well.

Personally, I prefer West-Gervin hybrid, due to his insane finishing ability around the basket (he's also not the passer Manu was).

LukaTheGOAT · Post #57 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:21 am

Well Shai will probably start getting heavy consideration as BITW after this upcoming title run, whether deserved or not, so similar to MJ vs. LeBron, comparison between these two will rage on.

Based on strictly play this season, this might be the closest MVP race I can ever recall in terms of who would be MY MVP.

Based on just this analogy, the heated debate in MJ vs Lebron is warranted in my mind. Thing is, I don't believe the Shai vs. Jokic is a clean enough fit to solve MJ vs LBJ.

jdzimme3 · Post #58 » by **jdzimme3** » Mon Feb 24, 2025 10:34 pm

I thought jordan might be jokic in this comp because he has won more with less help.

KembaWalker · Post #59 » by **KembaWalker** » Tue Feb 25, 2025 2:07 pm

jdzimme3 wrote:I thought jordan might be jokic in this comp because he has won more with less help.

Thats true, three of the four guys in this comp simply thrived with the cards they were dealt. Not sure that the team hopping traveling circus act really belongs in the convo with these 3.

Heej · Post #60 » by **Heej** » Tue Feb 25, 2025 2:25 pm

KembaWalker wrote:
jdzimme3 wrote:I thought jordan might be jokic in this comp because he has won more with less help.

Thats true, three of the four guys in this comp simply thrived with the cards they were dealt. Not sure that the team hopping traveling circus act really belongs in the convo with these 3.

3 of the 4 guys were dealt a rather easy hand. Not sure why that would make them better :rofl: