PG: Knicks vs. Celtics: At least that 3rd quarter was encouraging...

[HerSports85]

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[NoStatsGuy]

im afraid we wont ever be in the mix with Brunson and KAT in the "best" lineup.

brunson is smart, takes charges and does what he can with his physical limitations and KAT on D, especially in drop is really hard to watch. i dont see a world where 3 players can cover and play defense for 5 people. Mitch is not gonna save us, Mikal cant guard his own and brunsons man.

we need a dpoy caliber rimprotector, that can stay on the court and be the backbone for mikal and OG

[Chanel Bomber]

I don't think he is referencing that, or at least I hope he isn't. Brunson is better than Mitchell.

They're pretty much the same caliber of player.

Mitchell's a better defender than Brunson. Our captain tries but he's one of the worst defenders in the league.

Just because Brunson outplayed him in one playoff series doesn't mean he's fundamentally the better player.

In your earlier post I think you failed to mention the uptick in offense that would come with pairing Brunson and Mitchell, as if the defense would get worse but the offense would remain stable. With Mitchell, you're injecting HOF-level, All-NBA-level production into the offense.

The Cavs have a small backcourt yet they are managing just fine with their defensive frontcourt by the way. They would have had quite a bit of success with iHart, Mitch and OG. iHart's departure would have hurt us, just like it did this past summer.

For the TS police...Mitchell has 1 time shot over 60% on that end and brunson clears him on the EFF end. And Brunson has been a far better playoff performer especially if you take away the COVID/playoff bubble run Mitchell had. So I would give the edge to Brunson for sure (would certainly not 1 for 1 swap them).

but in theory it could work you would have to have a complete structure change of the team. Obviously you couldn't have Brunson/Mitchell/KAT.

Mitchell is a better defender simply because of his quicker switch ability...but he can't defend anyone either. Especially if you are now asking one of them to constantly guard the POA defense would would be a disaster. CLE gets by because they have two elite defenders at the 4 and 5...so we would have had to find a completely different composition in the front court to make it work.

Garland is a more willing passing than Brunson so it seems to work better. Not saying it wouldn't work because I'm aware Brunson and Mitchell are special offensive players. It might be better for a thibs run team because he just allows freelancing with no "specific system". So Brunson and Mitchell could do "take turns running the offense"

but the roster would be way difficult to build around. We already are seeing that its challenging defensively with brunson...adding another small guard. Then you would still have to find bigs that defend that could also space the floor because you need more spacing for Hart.

Its not a coincidence Hart is having the best season of his career playing with KAT who brings out the opposing big to allow Hart to attack the rim and cut into open space. If you have bigs that can't shoot then Hart certainly wouldn't be as impactful.

I don't judge players based off of scoring efficiency alone. It matters in the balance, for sure. But a lot more goes into the game, as you well know.

We can agree to disagree but I think they're pretty much in the same class.

I think Mitchell is a more physical defender, with a much longer wingspan than Brunson. He was a good defender coming into the league, and I think the reason his defense tailed off in Utah was the massive offensive burden that he had to carry there - which doesn't totally excuse his regression. But I think it's been better in Cleveland, and I think you might be underestimating the gap between him and Brunson defensively.

Bringing in Spida would have created its own set of challenges in terms of roster construction, for sure. The biggest being our inability to retain iHart due to the length of his contract. It's quite depressing when you think about it. He solved so many problems for us, as he would have in a lot of these different scenarios. And there was nothing we could do after we gave him two years.

We might have had a shorter window with Mitchell, but man he's an amazing basketball player and I can't help but wonder what heights we could have reached if we had him, Brunson, Hart, iHart, Mitch, Randle, IQ starting from the fall/winter of 2022 and for the next two playoffs. I still like our current team and I'm not ready to bury them yet, but while this is purely speculative, my intuition is that we would have had a higher ceiling and therefore it still feels like a missed opportunity to me. I guess you never know though.

[spree2kawhi]

Undo the KAT trade so that we will have two defensive genius in Randle and DDV to cover all those holes

Or trade Towns for Giannis. At least he shows how to win big in the East without a three-point shot.

Every GM in the league would rather have Giannis than KAT. Do you even listen to yourself before you click submit?

That’s just not how it works. This team had the chance to get a very, very good player for two very mediocre ones and I’m glad they did so. Now this player performs well and the team will of course be given time to grow, and I don’t see any reason why anybody would be in tears about it (other than badly hurt feelings over the Randle trade, of course). That’s just the reality you fail to face for whatever reasons.

Yes, Antetokounmpo is a top player in the league and outperforms Towns in almost every aspect of the game, but he wasn’t on the market and we really had to get rid of this bum Randle. This isn’t a fantasy game and you won’t get Giannis from Milwaukee anyway nor would that team win a championship in the first year either. Clearly, Antetokounmpo‘s team isn’t outperforming these Knicks, which haters on this board conveniently overlook in these idiotic discussions over the Knicks’ outrageous lack of instant success…

The whole “trade/blame Towns”-thing just a ridiculous notion, not to be taken serious at all - actually, only literal lunatics would come up with such BS. Personally, I would even welcome such a trade and maybe Giannis really forces his way to the Knicks one day, but that’s not an actual thing right now and the agenda behind this being brought up here right now is still pathetic.

[Iron Mantis]

Good point!

Did Melo respond yet?

Undo the KAT trade so that we will have two defensive genius in Randle and DDV to cover all those holes

Or trade Towns for Giannis. At least he shows how to win big in the East without a three-point shot.

How is such a trade even an option right now?? How are guys really suggesting this?

Just forfeit the rest of the season and the playoffs and just sit and wait until trades can be made again and pray that Leon wants to trade KAT a few months after obtaining him??

We're looking at how to maximize the current roster for the playoffs. What can the Knicks do right now to be better prepared for the playoffs?

[NowWHYcee7]

We are the CP3 era Clippers. Straight up FRAUDS. Season is over.

[Reign23]

I just finished the game and its a flat out desaster.
They are just way better than us and I don't see how we would get past them in in playoffs.
KAT and Brunson did absolutely do **** until we were down 25 (at least they showed pride in the 3rd and got us on a run)
Tatum, Brown and Holiday are just so much better than Hart, OG and Mikal on the wing
Horford is better than Achiuwa by a mile.
Pritchard(even tho he suck in this one) is better than Deuce.
Mazzula is way better than thibs too.

I don't know how you overcome such a talent gap tbh.

[god shammgod]

bontempts destroying kat's defense on the hoop collective this morning. wow. brutal. sad.

[Iron Mantis]

I just finished the game and its a flat out desaster.
They are just way better than us and I don't see how we would get past them in in playoffs.
KAT and Brunson did absolutely do **** until we were down 25 (at least they showed pride in the 3rd and got us on a run)
Tatum, Brown and Holiday are just so much better than Hart, OG and Mikal on the wing
Horford is better than Achiuwa by a mile.
Pritchard(even tho he suck in this one) is better than Deuce.
Mazzula is way better than thibs too.

I don't know how you overcome such a talent gap tbh.

So a valid question is why did it take them so long to decide to play with fire and desire?

And what was the Knicks game plan, on both ends, coming in? I'm not just forfeiting a game because I feel there's a talent gap. Less talented teams than the Knicks have beaten the Celtics.

I could not see a clearly defined game plan on either end for the Knicks.

You could clearly see the Celtics game plan was to rape the Knicks drop coverage scheme, attack in transition.... and on defense don't guard Hart or precious on the perimeter, and crash offensive boards.

[GettinitDone]

Watch on YouTube

First ever topic: Thibs being reckless with minutes

1:09 - Bill: "But we slowly realized that Thibs has just left his starters in basically the whole game..."

1:26 - Bill: "Does Thibs know that the regular season especially in the East doesn't really matter and that you just wanna be one of the 1st 4 seeds and that to put miles he put on some of his guys today is insanity... I don't get it, I just don't understand it" - Ryen: uh he doesn't care!"

2:25 - Ryen: "But they played in Chicago on Thursday and it was an OT game and here are the minutes, Precious: 46, Mikal: 44, KAT: 43, Brunson: 38, McBride played 42, and then he played 3 other guys 17 mins, so they go into that Cleveland game fresh off of that where Cleveland was coming off back to back and you can see within that game they're toast"

2:55 - Ryen: "But I couldn't believe he put KAT back in after he left with a limp... they're down 18!"

3:17 - Bill: "He just went all in on that 3rd quarter with his starters basically... the Celtics were playing their bench guys too and you know trying to keep their guys fresh for the 4th quarter and then that 4th quarter started, and you can see it at the game, you can see it... like Hart... he's like any stoppage you can see his chest heaving... they ran out of gas, and the Celtics knew it, they started targeting him... I just watched stuff like that, and I know we've talked about this Thibs stuff forever, about how he doesn't care about the minutes, but I think HE'S REALLY RECKLESS, this team just needs to get to the playoffs with these 5 guys being able to play 40 minutes a game when we get to the playoffs, THEY DON'T NEED TO DO IT NOW... I think it matters for them to be healthy... I think it's IRRESPONSIBLE, I don't get it"

It's like even Bill empathises

6:19 - Bill: "I just don't think with the way he plays the minutes and the bench, I don't really take them seriously as a championship contender"

[NiceLikeChrist]

im afraid we wont ever be in the mix with Brunson and KAT in the "best" lineup.

brunson is smart, takes charges and does what he can with his physical limitations and KAT on D, especially in drop is really hard to watch. i dont see a world where 3 players can cover and play defense for 5 people. Mitch is not gonna save us, Mikal cant guard his own and brunsons man.

we need a dpoy caliber rimprotector, that can stay on the court and be the backbone for mikal and OG

because we all know jamal Murray and jokic were defensive juggernauts in 2023

this narrative that there's something wrong with our roster or players only serves to protect the incompetent coach we have running things

[spree2kawhi]

im afraid we wont ever be in the mix with Brunson and KAT in the "best" lineup.

brunson is smart, takes charges and does what he can with his physical limitations and KAT on D, especially in drop is really hard to watch. i dont see a world where 3 players can cover and play defense for 5 people. Mitch is not gonna save us, Mikal cant guard his own and brunsons man.

we need a dpoy caliber rimprotector, that can stay on the court and be the backbone for mikal and OG

because we all know jamal Murray and jokic were defensive juggernauts in 2023

this narrative that there's something wrong with our roster or players only serves to protect the incompetent coach we have running things

If anything, we need a deeper bench. The roster should be fine once we get Mitch back (a shot-blocking is an issue). The coaching is meh, but most importantly, this team hasn’t been together for three years like the other contenders.

[3toheadmelo]

Undo the KAT trade so that we will have two defensive genius in Randle and DDV to cover all those holes

I wonder how we were a top 5 team defensively with Randle and DDV last year then. Something ain’t adding up with your agenda as usual.

Okay let's go back to last season, here are the number of game they played:

DDV - 81 games
Hartenstein - 75 games
Randle - 46 games

Randle could be a factor, but he's less significant than iHart and DDV to this has-been top 5 defensive team, would you agree?

We were the 6th best defensive team in the league in 2022-2023, that’s without DDV and Ihart being in a backup role. Your agenda isn’t working here.

[3toheadmelo]

Or trade Towns for Giannis. At least he shows how to win big in the East without a three-point shot.

Every GM in the league would rather have Giannis than KAT. Do you even listen to yourself before you click submit?

That’s just not how it works. This team had the chance to get a very, very good player for two very mediocre ones and I’m glad they did so. Now this player performs well and the team will of course be given time to grow, and I don’t see any reason why anybody would be in tears about it (other than badly hurt feelings over the Randle trade, of course). That’s just the reality you fail to face for whatever reasons.

Yes, Antetokounmpo is a top player in the league and outperforms Towns in almost every aspect of the game, but he wasn’t on the market and we really had to get rid of this bum Randle. This isn’t a fantasy game and you won’t get Giannis from Milwaukee anyway nor would that team win a championship in the first year either. Clearly, Antetokounmpo‘s team isn’t outperforming these Knicks, which haters on this board conveniently overlook in these idiotic discussions over the Knicks’ outrageous lack of instant success…

The whole “trade/blame Towns”-thing just a ridiculous notion, not to be taken serious at all - actually, only literal lunatics would come up with such BS. Personally, I would even welcome such a trade and maybe Giannis really forces his way to the Knicks one day, but that’s not an actual thing right now and the agenda behind this being brought up here right now is still pathetic.

This is a ridiculous post. You sound very upset you were flat out wrong about this team.

[3toheadmelo]

bontempts destroying kat's defense on the hoop collective this morning. wow. brutal. sad.

Literally Bargnani bad. Just sad. Mind blowing that people won’t acknowledge how garbage he’s been on defense. But let’s blame OG and Thibs instead.

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

[spree2kawhi]

Every GM in the league would rather have Giannis than KAT. Do you even listen to yourself before you click submit?

That’s just not how it works. This team had the chance to get a very, very good player for two very mediocre ones and I’m glad they did so. Now this player performs well and the team will of course be given time to grow, and I don’t see any reason why anybody would be in tears about it (other than badly hurt feelings over the Randle trade, of course). That’s just the reality you fail to face for whatever reasons.

Yes, Antetokounmpo is a top player in the league and outperforms Towns in almost every aspect of the game, but he wasn’t on the market and we really had to get rid of this bum Randle. This isn’t a fantasy game and you won’t get Giannis from Milwaukee anyway nor would that team win a championship in the first year either. Clearly, Antetokounmpo‘s team isn’t outperforming these Knicks, which haters on this board conveniently overlook in these idiotic discussions over the Knicks’ outrageous lack of instant success…

The whole “trade/blame Towns”-thing just a ridiculous notion, not to be taken serious at all - actually, only literal lunatics would come up with such BS. Personally, I would even welcome such a trade and maybe Giannis really forces his way to the Knicks one day, but that’s not an actual thing right now and the agenda behind this being brought up here right now is still pathetic.

This is a ridiculous post. You sound very upset you were flat out wrong about this team.

This team is alright, I like the group very much. We didn’t have our center so far this season. They’re literally the winningest Knicks team in decades, fourth in the league only 4 months after the trade - so I guess I was right about the team, about Randle etc. The post is flawless too…

I am not upset, I just don’t like your trolling and baseless negativity at all, especially not at that rate. I think reading such negative, biased and also shallow crap non-stop is detrimental to this board.

[3toheadmelo]

That’s just not how it works. This team had the chance to get a very, very good player for two very mediocre ones and I’m glad they did so. Now this player performs well and the team will of course be given time to grow, and I don’t see any reason why anybody would be in tears about it (other than badly hurt feelings over the Randle trade, of course). That’s just the reality you fail to face for whatever reasons.

Yes, Antetokounmpo is a top player in the league and outperforms Towns in almost every aspect of the game, but he wasn’t on the market and we really had to get rid of this bum Randle. This isn’t a fantasy game and you won’t get Giannis from Milwaukee anyway nor would that team win a championship in the first year either. Clearly, Antetokounmpo‘s team isn’t outperforming these Knicks, which haters on this board conveniently overlook in these idiotic discussions over the Knicks’ outrageous lack of instant success…

The whole “trade/blame Towns”-thing just a ridiculous notion, not to be taken serious at all - actually, only literal lunatics would come up with such BS. Personally, I would even welcome such a trade and maybe Giannis really forces his way to the Knicks one day, but that’s not an actual thing right now and the agenda behind this being brought up here right now is still pathetic.

This is a ridiculous post. You sound very upset you were flat out wrong about this team.

This team is alright, I like the group very much. We didn’t have our center so far this season. They’re literally the winningest Knicks team in decades, fourth in the league only 4 months after the trade - so I guess I was right about the team, about Randle etc. The post is flawless too…

I am not upset, I just don’t like your trolling and baseless negativity at all, especially not at that rate. I think reading such negative, biased and also shallow crap non-stop is detrimental to this board.

Yeah, 0-7 against OKC, Cleveland, Boston. 20th best defense in the league. KAT putting up the worst defensive stats in the league. Mikal being a complete waste of 5 picks. You were definitely right. I commend you for being delusional and then trying to run victory laps with no shame. That’s very valuable to the board.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

bontempts destroying kat's defense on the hoop collective this morning. wow. brutal. sad.

Literally Bargnani bad. Just sad. Mind blowing that people won’t acknowledge how garbage he’s been on defense. But let’s blame OG and Thibs instead.

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

[Wildcat]

bontempts destroying kat's defense on the hoop collective this morning. wow. brutal. sad.

Literally Bargnani bad. Just sad. Mind blowing that people won’t acknowledge how garbage he’s been on defense. But let’s blame OG and Thibs instead.

Going back to those games against top-10 offenses, Towns has allowed opponents in those games to shoot 63% from the field -- ranking 346th out of 346 players to contest at least 50 shots against those teams, per ESPN Research.

On layups and dunks in those games, Towns is allowing 70% shooting -- and opponents are shooting 60% overall on layups and dunks against him, which is the worst mark of any player to contest at least 300 of them.

Thibs has a role in all this for his stubbornness to keep KAT at the 5, so yeah, we got to blame Thibs, too. As much as I love Hart, OG isn't a 4, and Hart should be off the bench. When this trade went down and it was announced Mitch was going to be out longer than reported, my concern with OG being the 4 was immediate. Precious getting hate so early on threw out any sort of lineup variation. Considering how weak Deuce has been as the 6th man, it just makes all the sense in the world to me to have Hart be that spark plug we need, and go a different route with the starting lineup. Personally, I wanted a Precious/KAT/OG/Bridges/JB lineup.

[CharlesOakley]

I thought we were putting this team together so we could play elite defense? I thought Thibs was all about this?

[spree2kawhi]

This is a ridiculous post. You sound very upset you were flat out wrong about this team.

This team is alright, I like the group very much. We didn’t have our center so far this season. They’re literally the winningest Knicks team in decades, fourth in the league only 4 months after the trade - so I guess I was right about the team, about Randle etc. The post is flawless too…

I am not upset, I just don’t like your trolling and baseless negativity at all, especially not at that rate. I think reading such negative, biased and also shallow crap non-stop is detrimental to this board.

Yeah, 0-7 against OKC, Cleveland, Boston. 20th best defense in the league. KAT putting up the worst defensive stats in the league. Mikal being a complete waste of 5 picks. You were definitely right. I commend you for being delusional and then trying to run victory laps with no shame. That’s very valuable to the board.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Literally Bargnani bad. Just sad. Mind blowing that people won’t acknowledge how garbage he’s been on defense. But let’s blame OG and Thibs instead.

I would’ve preferred not to react to this at all, but since you’re asking… I did have an immediate reaction and thought: weren’t you the poster suggesting (in typical short-sighted, chucker-loving manner) to trade Hart and Bridges for LaVine? Yes, you were! So because LaVine is such a formidable force defensively, I am now sure your worries about our defense, not hypocritical trolling is what really drives you…

Dude, you’re not honest. You’re simply butthurt over the Randle-fiasco that showed this board who you really are as a poster, so you grasp for every chance to make this team look bad. They are a pretty good team regardless though. You don’t build a champion over night and that is fine by me. Get over it.