Not Loyal, No Journeyman Draft (Post Merger) - Discussion

[durantbird]

Didn't write it here only in the sheets. The clock starts tomorrow 9am EDT. Since it's already night, I'll pick tomorrow

[Fadeaway_J]

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Up

[Larry_Russell]

I am not sure if there is an easy way to find players I am missing, but the last 5 or 6 guys I looked up dont fit the bill.

At least I have nash who I know can make any offense work.

[Fadeaway_J]

I am not sure if there is an easy way to find players I am missing, but the last 5 or 6 guys I looked up dont fit the bill.

At least I have nash who I know can make any offense work.

Apart from the usual suspects, looking at current players is a good place to start in general.

[Snakebites]

What does SGA have to do to be considered better than Wade in these?

I ask because the stats are already making a decent case.

[MadNESS]

What does SGA have to do to be considered better than Wade in these?

I ask because the stats are already making a decent case.

If he gets MVP, it’s SGA all day.

If he gets title, it’s still close.
Plus a little more time.

[uberhikari]

What does SGA have to do to be considered better than Wade in these?

I ask because the stats are already making a decent case.

If he gets MVP, it’s SGA all day.

If he gets title, it’s still close.
Plus a little more time.

Personally, I think Wade was way too good in the playoffs for me to take SGA over him. For me, SGA would need more than an MVP; he'd need a dominant deep PS run.

[ReggiesKnicks]

What does SGA have to do to be considered better than Wade in these?

I ask because the stats are already making a decent case.

If he gets MVP, it’s SGA all day.

If he gets title, it’s still close.
Plus a little more time.

Personally, I think Wade was way too good in the playoffs for me to take SGA over him. For me, SGA would need more than an MVP; he'd need a dominant deep PS run.

Do you care that Wade never led good post-season offenses?

[Snakebites]

I do get that Wade is a more proven postseason product at this stage. I do think Shai is already statistically better than him in general though, and I also think that it is very possible this season that he leapfrogs him altogether depending on how the rest of the year goes.

He's on track for a better season than Wade has ever had.

I felt it was an apt comparision given that they do slot similarly to one another in these games and one was just immmediately selected after the other.

[Fadeaway_J]

I do get that Wade is a more proven postseason product at this stage. I do think Shai is already statistically better than him in general though, and I do think that it is very possible this season that he leapfrogs him altogether depending on how the rest of the year goes.

He's on track for a better season than Wade has ever had.

I felt it was an apt comparision given that they do slot similarly to one another in these games and one was just immmediately selected after the other.

For our purposes, it is relevant that Wade has a couple of prime seasons under 19 FGAs.

I'm high on both, but all things being equal, I prefer Shai. While they have a lot of similarities and Wade put even more pressure on the rim, the difference in jumpshooting (not just threes) is pretty significant. Shai doesn't have that iconic deep playoff run as yet, but last season was more than good enough to convince me his game can hold up under postseason conditions.

[JimmyPlopper]

Didn't write it here only in the sheets. The clock starts tomorrow 9am EDT. Since it's already night, I'll pick tomorrow

Back to you

[flaco]

I think people focus too much on accolades. What matters to me is what each player brings to the table. Wade is a 6'4'' slasher. I guess he's also a reliable on-ball defender, but you'd never want him to waste his energy as the primary POA defender. I really don't see the allure in what he brings to the table. For instance, Dominique Wilkins was a 6'8'' slasher, yet he's almost always left on the board in our games. People argue Wade is a proven winner. Well, he won 3 rings with Shaq and LeBron. If Nique were playing with Kareem and Bird, I bet he would have won multiple rings as well.

To put it another way, I think Wade is a rich man's Donovan Mitchell, whereas SGA is a poor man's Oscar Robertson. I don't even think it's close. Imo, SGA is comfortably better.

[uberhikari]

If he gets MVP, it’s SGA all day.

If he gets title, it’s still close.
Plus a little more time.

Personally, I think Wade was way too good in the playoffs for me to take SGA over him. For me, SGA would need more than an MVP; he'd need a dominant deep PS run.

Do you care that Wade never led good post-season offenses?

In the context of this discussion? No.

[Fadeaway_J]

I think people focus too much on accolades. What matters for me is what each player brings to the table. Wade is a 6'4'' slasher. I guess he's also a reliable on-ball defender, but you'd never want him to waste his energy as the primary POA defender. I really don't see the allure in what he brings to the table. For instance, Dominique was a 6'8'' slasher, yet he's almost always left on the board in our games. People argue Wade is a proven winner. Well, he won 3 rings with Shaq and LeBron. If Nique were playing with Kereem and Bird, I bet he would have won multiple rings as well.

To put it another way, I think Wade is a rich man's Donovan Mitchell, whereas SGA is a poor man's Occar Robertson. I don't even think it's close. Imo, SGA is comfortably better.

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculously facile comparison. Apart from shooting (where neither is any great shakes), Wade is miles better than Nique in every skill that matters, including slashing.

[flaco]

I think people focus too much on accolades. What matters for me is what each player brings to the table. Wade is a 6'4'' slasher. I guess he's also a reliable on-ball defender, but you'd never want him to waste his energy as the primary POA defender. I really don't see the allure in what he brings to the table. For instance, Dominique was a 6'8'' slasher, yet he's almost always left on the board in our games. People argue Wade is a proven winner. Well, he won 3 rings with Shaq and LeBron. If Nique were playing with Kereem and Bird, I bet he would have won multiple rings as well.

To put it another way, I think Wade is a rich man's Donovan Mitchell, whereas SGA is a poor man's Occar Robertson. I don't even think it's close. Imo, SGA is comfortably better.

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculously facile comparison. Apart from shooting (where neither is any great shakes), Wade is miles better than Nique in every skill that matters, including slashing.

Agree to disagree. Most old school players are massively underrated, especially if they were interior-oriented scorers.

Wade is a superior facilitator and defender, which makes him the better overall player. That said, Nique was a beast. Was averaging 30 points per game as a slasher despite the abysmal spacing of the 80s. He would have been even more efficient in the modern NBA. Would have likely developed a reliable 3pt shot as well judging by his FT%. Not his fault he couldn't beat the 80s Celtics with a mediocre Hawks team. Basketball is a team game. Nobody can win by himself. Not even MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, you name it.

[ReggiesKnicks]

I think people focus too much on accolades. What matters for me is what each player brings to the table. Wade is a 6'4'' slasher. I guess he's also a reliable on-ball defender, but you'd never want him to waste his energy as the primary POA defender. I really don't see the allure in what he brings to the table.

The allure of Wade is he is an ATG off-ball guard defender, right? Using him as a POA is a waste of his skill-set Instead he is unique in that he provides secondary rim-protection and weak-side shot blocking as a 6' 4" guard. What's valuable here is he allows for different and unique team make-ups because he checks a box no other players his size do. How many slashers and shot-creators also check the box of weak-side paint protector? It is like taking Aaron Gordon and giving him an immensely robust offensive game.

For instance, Dominique Wilkins was a 6'8'' slasher, yet he's almost always left on the board in our games. People argue Wade is a proven winner. Well, he won 3 rings with Shaq and LeBron. If Nique were playing with Kereem and Bird, I bet he would have won multiple rings as well.

I can't disagree here, but most players have won titles with talented players. Wade sort of got overrated in the sense that he never led good offenses, both regular season and post-season his rORTG were lackluster. He popped off in a finals series where he made SGA's whistle look weak and then won with arguably the greatest player of All-Time in LeBron James as Wade's body began to deteriorate.

The mystique of Dwyane Wade is built on his 2006 NBA Finals and then carrying bad rosters to middling results from 2008-2010. I think ultimately you are underselling Dwyane Wade defensively because you view players in archetypes and your own preconceived heuristics without analyzing players in optimal settings (evidenced by you saying "Wade isn't a good POA defender", which really misses the actual skill-set of Wade and is a complete misuse of his skill-set).

To put it another way, I think Wade is a rich man's Donovan Mitchell, whereas SGA is a poor man's Occar Robertson. I don't even think it's close. Imo, SGA is comfortably better.

Woah, careful now. Oscar Robertson is arguably the greatest offensive player ever relative to Era. He led historically great offenses in an era dominated by big men. Oscar Robertson was a far greater table setter, passer and playmaker than SGA.

SGA's ATG parallel is clearly Michael Jordan. Good Playmaking (not great), ATG mid-range arsenal, ability to get to the rim and draw fouls, historically low TOV% and Turnover Economy, Passing-lane ball-hawk and ability to generate deflections at a high-rate.

[MadNESS]

I am not sure if there is an easy way to find players I am missing, but the last 5 or 6 guys I looked up dont fit the bill.

At least I have nash who I know can make any offense work.

Up

[flaco]

I think people focus too much on accolades. What matters for me is what each player brings to the table. Wade is a 6'4'' slasher. I guess he's also a reliable on-ball defender, but you'd never want him to waste his energy as the primary POA defender. I really don't see the allure in what he brings to the table.

The allure of Wade is he is an ATG off-ball guard defender, right? Using him as a POA is a waste of his skill-set Instead he is unique in that he provides secondary rim-protection and weak-side shot blocking as a 6' 4" guard. What's valuable here is he allows for different and unique team make-ups because he checks a box no other players his size do. How many slashers and shot-creators also check the box of weak-side paint protector? It is like taking Aaron Gordon and giving him an immensely robust offensive game.

For instance, Dominique Wilkins was a 6'8'' slasher, yet he's almost always left on the board in our games. People argue Wade is a proven winner. Well, he won 3 rings with Shaq and LeBron. If Nique were playing with Kereem and Bird, I bet he would have won multiple rings as well.

I can't disagree here, but most players have won titles with talented players. Wade sort of got overrated in the sense that he never led good offenses, both regular season and post-season his rORTG were lackluster. He popped off in a finals series where he made SGA's whistle look weak and then won with arguably the greatest player of All-Time in LeBron James as Wade's body began to deteriorate.

The mystique of Dwyane Wade is built on his 2006 NBA Finals and then carrying bad rosters to middling results from 2008-2010. I think ultimately you are underselling Dwyane Wade defensively because you view players in archetypes and your own preconceived heuristics without analyzing players in optimal settings (evidenced by you saying "Wade isn't a good POA defender", which really misses the actual skill-set of Wade and is a complete misuse of his skill-set).

To put it another way, I think Wade is a rich man's Donovan Mitchell, whereas SGA is a poor man's Occar Robertson. I don't even think it's close. Imo, SGA is comfortably better.

Woah, careful now. Oscar Robertson is arguably the greatest offensive player ever relative to Era. He led historically great offenses in an era dominated by big men. Oscar Robertson was a far greater table setter, passer and playmaker than SGA.

SGA's ATG parallel is clearly Michael Jordan. Good Playmaking (not great), ATG mid-range arsenal, ability to get to the rim and draw fouls, historically low TOV% and Turnover Economy, Passing-lane ball-hawk and ability to generate deflections at a high-rate.

SGA and Oscar are ball handlers. MJ was a wing, albeit highly versatile. Agreed that the Oscar comp isn't perfect, but it's still close enough. Both are relatively unathletic heliocentric ball handlers who rely on BBIQ rather than athleticism. I'm sky high on Oscar. Not claiming SGA is at the same level, just that their games are similar.

Fair enough on Wade's rim protection and weak-side shot blocking. It's more of a bonus trait though rather than a required skill at his position. The most important defensive traits for perimeter players are size and lateral mobility in order to switch ball screens and stay in front of ball handlers off the dribble.

[Fadeaway_J]

Looks like a hell of a drop for flaco here...

[durantbird]

Looks like a hell of a drop for flaco here...

Yeah had I known he'll drop I would've taken AD instead of Wade