Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[youngRAPZ]

lol last paragraph is all I was trying to say you summed it up perfectly.

Cheers

I just feel like I already made up my mind Scotty wasn’t going to be KL or Gianni’s after season 2 and when he bounced back in season 3 I knew his greatest impact on the team wouldn’t be his PPG but his defence and versatility and I am ok with that because I know basketball isn’t just about scoring points.

I think it was clear pretty quickly what he is and isn't. His pre-draft profile has been fairly spot-on, but we've been trying to force him into other things out of need and desire more than any real hope that it would work. But scoring isn't everything, and Scottie does a lot of really good things.

I mean really everyone gonna hate me but Scottie will be what Ben Simmons was supposed to develop into not Gianni’s Not Leonard but an ultra athletic point forward that can play and defend the 1-5. Will that be good enough to be the best player on a championship quality team. Probably not but hey Ben Wallace was considered maybe not the best player but most important to that Detroit team.

[tsherkin]

I mean really everyone gonna hate me but Scottie will be what Ben Simmons was supposed to develop into not Gianni’s Not Leonard but an ultra athletic point forward that can play and defend the 1-5. Will that be good enough to be the best player on a championship quality team. Probably not but hey Ben Wallace was considered maybe not the best player but most important to that Detroit team.

Hmm, Simmons has some different levels of ability and such in a couple of ways compared to Scottie. But I guess the archetype of the playmaker/defensive specialist makes some sense.

[mdenny]

I mean really everyone gonna hate me but Scottie will be what Ben Simmons was supposed to develop into not Gianni’s Not Leonard but an ultra athletic point forward that can play and defend the 1-5. Will that be good enough to be the best player on a championship quality team. Probably not but hey Ben Wallace was considered maybe not the best player but most important to that Detroit team.

Hmm, Simmons has some different levels of ability and such in a couple of ways compared to Scottie. But I guess the archetype of the playmaker/defensive specialist makes some sense.

Ben Simmons had a natural handle and passing ability that is 10× better than scotty. I mean....it's not even close. Scotty is way more like a high ceiling Thad Young/draymond Green.

Ben Simmons....I don't even know what to compare him to. His natural ability was insane. He just never loved basketball. Thank God we never had to suffer watching a guy like that throw everything away.

Scotty definitely has some work ethic and maturity issues....but nothing that even approaches the depths of a pathetic guy like Ben Simmons.

Now that everything is settling into place...scotty still has a chance of becoming a high character guy. But next season is his last chance to do it.

I like the fact that he is making strides in becoming a hard to play against mucker. That's been the best development in his game this season. He was never gonna be a top 10 or top 20 player so I'm not disappointed as that becomes more obvious to his die-hard toxic fans who now have to re-invent their narratives.

[tsherkin]

Ben Simmons had a natural handle and passing ability that is 10× better than scotty.

Yeah, this was my hesitation as well. And Ben Simmons is also more athletic than Scottie, even now. His problems, health aside, are that he is afraid to shoot and has no consistent range. But he has the physical tools and the handle, for sure.

But yeah, speaking to the comparison, the archetype makes sense, even if the specific player doesn't.

[mdenny]

Ben Simmons had a natural handle and passing ability that is 10× better than scotty.

Yeah, this was my hesitation as well. And Ben Simmons is also more athletic than Scottie, even now. His problems, health aside, are that he is afraid to shoot and has no consistent range. But he has the physical tools and the handle, for sure.

But yeah, speaking to the comparison, the archetype makes sense, even if the specific player doesn't.

A high ceiling Thad young/draymond guy is a HUGE commodity for any team. It's also a rare commodity.

A Charles Oakley type on defense who has elite court vision on the offensive end and can still bang in the post for buckets. Plus you could rotate him in and out from running the offense from the perimeter.

It's truly a rare breed.

Scotty on a good team creates matchup nightmares for the opposition. (Ben did this too)

The more rare the archetype the higher the upside and the greater matchup advantage.

I'd be lying if i said i wasn't glad to see his insane toxic fans have to eat some crow according to their delusional expectations of what he is.

He is DEFINITELY worth a max contract. And he is DEFINITLEY a very unique piece that compliments stars who score

[youngRAPZ]

Ben Simmons had a natural handle and passing ability that is 10× better than scotty.

Yeah, this was my hesitation as well. And Ben Simmons is also more athletic than Scottie, even now. His problems, health aside, are that he is afraid to shoot and has no consistent range. But he has the physical tools and the handle, for sure.

But yeah, speaking to the comparison, the archetype makes sense, even if the specific player doesn't.

Yeh I definitely meant more so the archetype and not literally they’re the same but Ben definitely had the more natural talent. I just think Ben never improved at all from year 1 and that’s why I say I think Scottie will be what Ben should’ve developed into in terms of scoring the basketball being able to hit an open 3 and just being able to bully ball his way to 20 ppg.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Drakeem]

We are 5.5 games out of a play in now with all the inuries and one of the hardest schedules. If we had just a bit of better health we could be a playin team right now.

I see your rationale but by that logic the Nets are also 1.5 games out of the play-in despite also missing players for large portions of the season. I wouldn’t consider them a strong chance to make the play-in next year based on internal growth alone because right now their offensive rating is 27th and defensive rating is 20th. There’s low bar to make the play-in in the East so you could make the same argument for 3 or 4 teams. I agree that with Ingram we should be next year but that’s the potential ceiling rather than the floor.

Orlando are 2 games back from the playOFFS, all while having a cheaper and younger core, and WAY more injuries sustained to better players than the Raps. Yet it's always the same excuse "injuries".

Not that the team is mediocre on a good day, nah, it's just injuries.

I mean, both can be true? Orlando also really got hosed this year. Toronto and Orlando are probably two of the top teams with time missed by their starters. I don't think this nullifies the argument too much unless you can point to every team having the same situation.

[RoteSchroder]

I see your rationale but by that logic the Nets are also 1.5 games out of the play-in despite also missing players for large portions of the season. I wouldn’t consider them a strong chance to make the play-in next year based on internal growth alone because right now their offensive rating is 27th and defensive rating is 20th. There’s low bar to make the play-in in the East so you could make the same argument for 3 or 4 teams. I agree that with Ingram we should be next year but that’s the potential ceiling rather than the floor.

Orlando are 2 games back from the playOFFS, all while having a cheaper and younger core, and WAY more injuries sustained to better players than the Raps. Yet it's always the same excuse "injuries".

Not that the team is mediocre on a good day, nah, it's just injuries.

I mean, both can be true? Orlando also really got hosed this year. Toronto and Orlando are probably two of the top teams with time missed by their starters. I don't think this nullifies the argument too much unless you can point to every team having the same situation.

Orlando has had 9 losing seasons being at the bottom of the league since 2012-2013. In their 3 playoff seasons, they were 8th seed, 7th seed and 5th last year. What’s worse is that almost all their players hit like under 34% from 3. They have the lowest 3 point % as a team at 30.5%. Puke.

That is just god damn brutal and not really something I’d want to emulate.

[Scase]

Orlando are 2 games back from the playOFFS, all while having a cheaper and younger core, and WAY more injuries sustained to better players than the Raps. Yet it's always the same excuse "injuries".

Not that the team is mediocre on a good day, nah, it's just injuries.

I mean, both can be true? Orlando also really got hosed this year. Toronto and Orlando are probably two of the top teams with time missed by their starters. I don't think this nullifies the argument too much unless you can point to every team having the same situation.

Orlando has had 9 losing seasons being at the bottom of the league since 2012-2013. In their 3 playoff seasons, they were 8th seed, 7th seed and 5th last year. What’s worse is that almost all their players hit like under 34% from 3. They have the lowest 3 point % as a team at 30.5%. Puke.

That is just god damn brutal and not really something I’d want to emulate.

And yet, despite more injuries, those injuries being from better/more impactful players, and a significantly worse 3pt %, they are still only 1 game under .500 and would be a top 4 team with even half the injuries. But since we're talking about their 3 point ranking, seems only fair to bring up their 2nd ranked defence no? At least they are elite at something.

Meanwhile, we have one of the worst records in the league, also a bad 3p shooting team, and a fraction of the injuries, with 2 seasons in a row, and 3 of the last 5 years in the 20 win range. Probably shouldnt be chucking stones from our glass house.

If people want to complain about how long they were tanking, go for it, but you cannot argue that they are a bad or even mediocre team. Their entire core is young and very talented, with more success than our entire team in less time, maybe we match or exceed that performance, but until we do, it's kinda stupid to criticize them when we aren't even sniffing their performance, especially when you look at the utter waste of time the last 5 years have been.

I guarantee you, barring any major injuries, or us getting the 1st OA pick or finding some generational player, they will achieve more success than us in the next 5-10 years.

[youngRAPZ]

I mean, both can be true? Orlando also really got hosed this year. Toronto and Orlando are probably two of the top teams with time missed by their starters. I don't think this nullifies the argument too much unless you can point to every team having the same situation.

Orlando has had 9 losing seasons being at the bottom of the league since 2012-2013. In their 3 playoff seasons, they were 8th seed, 7th seed and 5th last year. What’s worse is that almost all their players hit like under 34% from 3. They have the lowest 3 point % as a team at 30.5%. Puke.

That is just god damn brutal and not really something I’d want to emulate.

And yet, despite more injuries, those injuries being from better/more impactful players, and a significantly worse 3pt %, they are still only 1 game under .500 and would be a top 4 team with even half the injuries. But since we're talking about their 3 point ranking, seems only fair to bring up their 2nd ranked defence no? At least they are elite at something.

Meanwhile, we have one of the worst records in the league, also a bad 3p shooting team, and a fraction of the injuries, with 2 seasons in a row, and 3 of the last 5 years in the 20 win range. Probably shouldnt be chucking stones from our glass house.

If people want to complain about how long they were tanking, go for it, but you cannot argue that they are a bad or even mediocre team. Their entire core is young and very talented, with more success than our entire team in less time, maybe we match or exceed that performance, but until we do, it's kinda stupid to criticize them when we aren't even sniffing their performance, especially when you look at the utter waste of time the last 5 years have been.

[B]I guarantee you, barring any major injuries, or us getting the 1st OA pick or finding some generational player, they will achieve more success than us in the next 5-10 years.[\B]

lol I guarantee if everything goes wrong for the raptors Orlando will have more success than us in the next 5-10 years. Stunning analysis. Masai is not allowed to win number 1 or draft the best player in the draft at a lower pick because that’s not fair for Orlando in the next 5-10 years.

Can’t make this stuff up man it’s hilarious!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mdenny]

Orlando has had 9 losing seasons being at the bottom of the league since 2012-2013. In their 3 playoff seasons, they were 8th seed, 7th seed and 5th last year. What’s worse is that almost all their players hit like under 34% from 3. They have the lowest 3 point % as a team at 30.5%. Puke.

That is just god damn brutal and not really something I’d want to emulate.

And yet, despite more injuries, those injuries being from better/more impactful players, and a significantly worse 3pt %, they are still only 1 game under .500 and would be a top 4 team with even half the injuries. But since we're talking about their 3 point ranking, seems only fair to bring up their 2nd ranked defence no? At least they are elite at something.

Meanwhile, we have one of the worst records in the league, also a bad 3p shooting team, and a fraction of the injuries, with 2 seasons in a row, and 3 of the last 5 years in the 20 win range. Probably shouldnt be chucking stones from our glass house.

If people want to complain about how long they were tanking, go for it, but you cannot argue that they are a bad or even mediocre team. Their entire core is young and very talented, with more success than our entire team in less time, maybe we match or exceed that performance, but until we do, it's kinda stupid to criticize them when we aren't even sniffing their performance, especially when you look at the utter waste of time the last 5 years have been.

[B]I guarantee you, barring any major injuries, or us getting the 1st OA pick or finding some generational player, they will achieve more success than us in the next 5-10 years.[\B]

lol I guarantee if everything goes wrong for the raptors Orlando will have more success than us in the next 5-10 years. Stunning analysis. Masai is not allowed to win number 1 or draft the best player in the draft at a lower pick because that’s not fair for Orlando in the next 5-10 years.

Can’t make this stuff up man it’s hilarious!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol. Barring any great FO moves in the near future....this FO is totally screwed.

[XTC]

Ben Simmons had a natural handle and passing ability that is 10× better than scotty.

Yeah, this was my hesitation as well. And Ben Simmons is also more athletic than Scottie, even now. His problems, health aside, are that he is afraid to shoot and has no consistent range. But he has the physical tools and the handle, for sure.

But yeah, speaking to the comparison, the archetype makes sense, even if the specific player doesn't.

Ben Simmons before all the injuries was a legit 6-10 point guard, a perennial allstar, and All NBA talent, who was a runner up DPOY. He was different... if that's Scotties archetype, that's allright, but even then he's not there yet.

If Scottie right now peaked as Ben Simmons before injuries, that's a massive W. I have no problems with Scottie not being a scorer... I just don't think he makes the players around him better offensively via his passing. He throws bullet passes to teammates who are 5 feet away from him, and the biggest thing I've noticed is, his passes are always so wild... watch a guy like Lebron, Harden, and even pre injury Simmons, they where throwing passes to their scorers/shooters in their spots and it was always in their shooting pockets. Scottie's teammates generally look surprised by some of the passes he throws... he lacks finesse.

I am however a fan of his help defense, and that is a part of his game he needs to build upon. Like I said if he can get to a level of pre injury Ben Simmons, that's a massive W.

[tsherkin]

Ben Simmons before all the injuries was a legit 6-10 point guard, a perennial allstar, and All NBA talent, who was a runner up DPOY. He was different... if that's Scotties archetype, that's allright, but even then he's not there yet.

Archetype != level of ability, though. Playmaker + defender is the archetype. Simmons was obviously playing at a different level, but inside the same archetype.

I just don't think he makes the players around him better offensively via his passing.

RJ would like a word.

He throws bullet passes to teammates who are 5 feet away from him, and the biggest thing I've noticed is, his passes are always so wild... watch a guy like Lebron, Harden, and even pre injury Simmons, they where throwing passes to their scorers/shooters in their spots and it was always in their shooting pockets. Scottie's teammates generally look surprised by some of the passes he throws... he lacks finesse.

Not that I think the two comparable, but the same thing was happening to Magic early on in his career until his teammmates adjusted, and as he learned their preferences. Just saying.

[mdenny]

Ben Simmons before all the injuries was a legit 6-10 point guard, a perennial allstar, and All NBA talent, who was a runner up DPOY. He was different... if that's Scotties archetype, that's allright, but even then he's not there yet.

Archetype != level of ability, though. Playmaker + defender is the archetype. Simmons was obviously playing at a different level, but inside the same archetype.

I just don't think he makes the players around him better offensively via his passing.

RJ would like a word.

He throws bullet passes to teammates who are 5 feet away from him, and the biggest thing I've noticed is, his passes are always so wild... watch a guy like Lebron, Harden, and even pre injury Simmons, they where throwing passes to their scorers/shooters in their spots and it was always in their shooting pockets. Scottie's teammates generally look surprised by some of the passes he throws... he lacks finesse.

Not that I think the two comparable, but the same thing was happening to Magic early on in his career until his teammmates adjusted, and as he learned their preferences. Just saying.

By "early in his career" regarding magic are you referring to the first couple of months?

[tsherkin]

By "early in his career" regarding magic are you referring to the first couple of months?

First 2 or 3 seasons, to be honest. Again, Magic was considerably superior overall and that overcame the issues, but it was a thing that happened. He fired bullets and they had to adjust to him. Obviously it became less and less an issue over time as everyone got accustomed to just having their hands up, always, lol. And he was sharing with Norm for the first bit. By the time he took over in full truth, it was a bit different, of course.

[raincityraptors]

I bleed Raptors Purple and Red, so I want our Max Player to be our best player.

That is in my best interest as a Raptors fan.

I love his strides on defense and being a verbal leader. I love big bully wings.

However, the lack of development in ballhandling, shot creation, the regression of his 3 plus the amount of times he disappears on a play, a quarter or a game makes me glad we have BI, RJ and even IQ around.

Would anyone be surprised if Scottie was the third option next year behind BI/RJ or BI/IQ?

How many max level 3rd options are there? Only one I can think of is Gobert.

[HumbleRen]

Scottie has elite court vision but his passing mechanics are very sloppy compared to Lebron/Luka or even Simmons/Giddey of the worlds.

I think it's mainly cause his ball handling ability is much worse than those big wings. Even Ingram or Tatum are much sharper passers than Scottie despite Scottie's court vision being better than those 2.

[Raps in 4]

Ben Simmons had a natural handle and passing ability that is 10× better than scotty.

Yeah, this was my hesitation as well. And Ben Simmons is also more athletic than Scottie, even now. His problems, health aside, are that he is afraid to shoot and has no consistent range. But he has the physical tools and the handle, for sure.

But yeah, speaking to the comparison, the archetype makes sense, even if the specific player doesn't.

Ben Simmons before all the injuries was a legit 6-10 point guard, a perennial allstar, and All NBA talent, who was a runner up DPOY. He was different... if that's Scotties archetype, that's allright, but even then he's not there yet.

If Scottie right now peaked as Ben Simmons before injuries, that's a massive W. I have no problems with Scottie not being a scorer... I just don't think he makes the players around him better offensively via his passing. He throws bullet passes to teammates who are 5 feet away from him, and the biggest thing I've noticed is, his passes are always so wild... watch a guy like Lebron, Harden, and even pre injury Simmons, they where throwing passes to their scorers/shooters in their spots and it was always in their shooting pockets. Scottie's teammates generally look surprised by some of the passes he throws... he lacks finesse.

I am however a fan of his help defense, and that is a part of his game he needs to build upon. Like I said if he can get to a level of pre injury Ben Simmons, that's a massive W.

Ben Simmons at his peak was another Draymond Green clone. If that's Scottie's ceiling, it's fine, but we're obviously hoping to get more than that out of him.

[tsherkin]

Ben Simmons at his peak was another Draymond Green clone. If that's Scottie's ceiling, it's fine, but we're obviously hoping to get more than out of him.

Some similarities, but definitely much more of a threat to drive than Draymond.

[anotherhomer]

Ben Simmons at his peak was another Draymond Green clone. If that's Scottie's ceiling, it's fine, but we're obviously hoping to get more than out of him.

Some similarities, but definitely much more of a threat to drive than Draymond.

ben simmons pre-injury was insane, and way more talented....even compared to Lebron James without a jumper