Game 56: Portland vs Charlotte 7: 00pm Chargetv and KUNP

[DusterBuster]

Are we not sure Camara can't develop into a franchise star? Is that off the table if he takes another offensive jump next year? Could he almost become like an early career Paul George?

I think people sometimes forget that Camara turns 25 in about 2.5 months. He's not a 21 year old with a large improvement curve ahead

when PG13 was 25 he averaged 23-7-4. Camara is averaging 11-6-2
when PG 13 was 25 he had a PER of 20.9, a winshare/48 of .157, and a BPM of +4.9; Camara has a PER of 12.0, a .083 winshare/48 and a BPM of -0.9 (at 23 PG averaged 22-7-4)

and that was the season that George returned from that horrendous injury so he wasn't at full steam

Camara will steadily improve, but I don't think any massive leap is in his future. Maybe settles in around 17-7-4 with a few all-NBA defensive nominations in his belt

Counterpoint to that, Lillard was also a 23yo rookie if I recall correctly. I think too much is made about age for how a player develops or what they can become.

Counterpoint to my counterpoint, Dame was a 20ppg scorer from his first season… so what do I know?

Realistically, I think you’re right, I think his peak is probably a 17-20ppg scorer if all goes right. But, I’m rooting for him to defy my future predictions.

[BlazersBroncos]

I dont see PG or Kawai upside w/ Camara but I think a supercharged Tayshaun Prince is within the realm of possibility (Say 17-18ppg rather than 13-14ppg).

Funny thing is PDX might be sitting on 2 of the best 4th option type glue-guys in the league, the type that all contender teams covet, while lacking those true go-to offensive options that a team needs to get into relevance.

I would like to see Camara getting closer to 12 shots a game than his current average of 8.5.

[Wizenheimer]

Are we not sure Camara can't develop into a franchise star? Is that off the table if he takes another offensive jump next year? Could he almost become like an early career Paul George?

I think people sometimes forget that Camara turns 25 in about 2.5 months. He's not a 21 year old with a large improvement curve ahead

when PG13 was 25 he averaged 23-7-4. Camara is averaging 11-6-2
when PG 13 was 25 he had a PER of 20.9, a winshare/48 of .157, and a BPM of +4.9; Camara has a PER of 12.0, a .083 winshare/48 and a BPM of -0.9 (at 23 PG averaged 22-7-4)

and that was the season that George returned from that horrendous injury so he wasn't at full steam

Camara will steadily improve, but I don't think any massive leap is in his future. Maybe settles in around 17-7-4 with a few all-NBA defensive nominations in his belt

Counterpoint to that, Lillard was also a 23yo rookie if I recall correctly. I think too much is made about age for how a player develops or what they can become.

Counterpoint to my counterpoint, Dame was a 20ppg scorer from his first season… so what do I know?

Realistically, I think you’re right, I think his peak is probably a 17-20ppg scorer if all goes right. But, I’m rooting for him to defy my future predictions.

I've lost track of the counterpoints, but at 25, Dame averaged 25-4-7 with a PER of 22.2.

I think it's likely a disservice to Camara to compare him to 1st/2nd option type all-NBA players. I think he'll develop good handles but never be good enough to be a primary option. More like Tayshaun Prince or Michael Cooper or Eddie Jones or a defensive-minded Jerome Kersey or a rich man's Shane Battier. He might even make an all-star game or two, but that's a really steep hill

speaking of former Blazers, an efficient shooting Aminu with better BBIQ? That would be a pretty good player. Mo Harkless with a big motor? Stacy Augmon with an offensive game? Bob Gross with a defensive game?. High level glue guy with elite defense?

[Case2012]

The point i made about other players getting their shots over him has largely been ignored. If he was given the green light to take 18-20 shots a game instead of Simons and Grant getting those shots, i think you'd see a leap. Now will Billups ever do that? No, probably not. I think if he had a better coach, you'd see a Deandre Hunter type leap. Just because he's almost 25 doesn't mean he couldn't do it. People obsess over stats too much sometimes instead of using their eyes and write people off because it fits a the narrative they've created. 25 is just entering their prime, and if Camara worked with Dame and Simons shot creation coach, with his work ethic-who knows? Again, i think it's more of a matter of coaching and personnel decisions than ability. With this regime he might peak at Deandre Hunter this year.

Honestly, Case...shot creation is his weakest skill. Creating offense off the dribble on non-closeouts is the most difficult thing in the NBA. That's a big difference between him and players like Kawhi and PG. IMO, part of what makes Camara very, very good is that he knows what he's good at--PofA defense, help defense, hitting open C&S shots, being a connective passer, attacking the occasional closeout--and he doesn't play "above" his skill level very often. He mostly plays efficient basketball.

I'm not sure that just opening up the offense to Camara so that he could take 18-20 shots a game would turn him into a 25 point, 2-way, scorer. For one, full-time offensive creation against NBA defenses takes a ton of stamina...that leaves less in the tank for him on defense. I think we would probably see a less efficient (higher TOs and lower shooting %s) version of Camara if he was given a full green light.

Even though players can sometimes have "growth" spurts at different ages, I tend to agree that at his age we'll likely see incremental improvements throughout his prime...and that's great. He's already a very good player that would start on most teams in the league.

Oh i agree on most of your points except that i think if Camara went into the off season working on his handles and shot creation it's possible to see a leap. But like i said i think he'll probably peak around 15-18 ppg with great defense. People get put into certain roles and theyre trained to be good in those roles. I think if he worked with the same people that Dame and Simons worked with, it might be worth it to explore. Then again, playing on both ends of the floor with shot creation and defending the best players on the other side of the ball would be daunting, but it's not like people can't do it, there's tons of players that do both and I think Camara could as well. Also, i think the age argument makes zero sense because it doesn't provide context. A better example would be time in the league, players make 3rd or 4th year jumps all the time. My point still stands that with the right coaching and given the green light it's possible. I don't think we'll ever know though. It's just kind of funny we always complain about these offensive minded players that dont play defense, but we immediately rule out a defensive minded player putting up 10 more points a game with 5 more shots. Is that not the kind of players we all want?

[Walton1one]

A good point was brought up on the radio today, how Camara's improved play makes this quest for the play in even more baffling.

They have Camara at (2) more seasons on a cheap deal, Avdija has (3) more seasons on his cheap deal and unless they get a star player, they are going to waste those cheap years of play and then be stuck paying those guys market or above level for their play and they STILL won't have that star player. That is why the time to tank was now, not go for a meaningless play in game. This is how bad teams get stuck in purgatory.

[JasonStern]

Random, but this might be the only time in the modern NBA where a team got blown out by 50 and managed to blow a team out by 50 in the same season.

I feel for Hornets fans. I don't think half of their roster is NBA material. And if you aren't going to put a decent roster out, why not give someone like Mac McClung a shot? He's not really NBA material, but he is a human highlight reel and there's always a small chance at a Jeremy Lin style underdog story. And worst case, at least you get highlights. Something entertaining for the fans. And Ball's health is recurringly questionable. Might as well sign a poor man's Simons.

Don't get the hate for Rihanna. Terrible taste in men, but still a beautiful woman. Sydney Sweeney is my current celebrity crush, but I'm pretty sure she was already chosen 56 games in. I'll throw out Paige Spiranac. Clearly I have a type.

Obligatory "Simons and Ayton are still not peaking and expiring next season. Let them try to play for their next contract. They don't have this mystical trade value that you think that they do. No idea why Grant is on this team. If his contract was swapped for any expiring, we would have a ton of cap space flexibility after the 2026 season" post.

[BNM]

I dont see PG or Kawai upside w/ Camara but I think a supercharged Tayshaun Prince is within the realm of possibility (Say 17-18ppg rather than 13-14ppg).

Funny thing is PDX might be sitting on 2 of the best 4th option type glue-guys in the league, the type that all contender teams covet, while lacking those true go-to offensive options that a team needs to get into relevance.

I would like to see Camara getting closer to 12 shots a game than his current average of 8.5.

I've been thinking for a while that the best comp for Camara is a pace and 3-point spamming era adjusted Tayshaun Prince.

In Prince's best season, he averaged 14.7 PTS/G on a team that averaged 93.3 PTS/G. That's the equivalent of 17.9 PTS/G in today's NBA.

I don't see Camara ever being better than the 3rd option on a top 4 seed team. I'd love to be proven wrong (I'd also love to be a top 4 seed team), but a 1st team All-Defense wing that averages an efficient 18 PTS/G is still a VERY valuable player.

[zzaj]

why not give someone like Mac McClung a shot? He's not really NBA material, but he is a human highlight reel and there's always a small chance at a Jeremy Lin style underdog story. And worst case, at least you get highlights. Something entertaining for the fans....

Because if you can't get to the rim in a game, you can't dunk the basketball. Also, last I checked they don't allow cars, spinny things, two balls, or other gadgets to make dunks look cooler. lol

[JasonStern]

why not give someone like Mac McClung a shot? He's not really NBA material, but he is a human highlight reel and there's always a small chance at a Jeremy Lin style underdog story. And worst case, at least you get highlights. Something entertaining for the fans....

Because if you can't get to the rim in a game, you can't dunk the basketball. Also, last I checked they don't allow cars, spinny things, two balls, or other gadgets to make dunks look cooler. lol

I don't think that you have ever actually been to Charlotte. There are plenty of broken down, clamped out cars that could be used in-game to make dunks look cool.

And I think McClung's game is that of a poor man's Simins/McCollum. Decently undersized SG that needs a very high usage rate to achieve decent stats. Half of this board would be jacked if we signed him and he cost us 30 games.

[zzaj]

why not give someone like Mac McClung a shot? He's not really NBA material, but he is a human highlight reel and there's always a small chance at a Jeremy Lin style underdog story. And worst case, at least you get highlights. Something entertaining for the fans....

Because if you can't get to the rim in a game, you can't dunk the basketball. Also, last I checked they don't allow cars, spinny things, two balls, or other gadgets to make dunks look cooler. lol

I don't think that you have ever actually been to Charlotte. There are plenty of broken down, clamped out cars that could be used in-game to make dunks look cool.

And I think McClung's game is that of a poor man's Simins/McCollum. Decently undersized SG that needs a very high usage rate to achieve decent stats. Half of this board would be jacked if we signed him and he cost us 30 games.

Me never been to the banking center of the USA?! Okay, I’ve only been there a few times…

And now that you put it that way…can we trade Mac for Simons, straight up?! lol

[zzaj]

A good point was brought up on the radio today, how Camara's improved play makes this quest for the play in even more baffling.

They have Camara at (2) more seasons on a cheap deal, Avdija has (3) more seasons on his cheap deal and unless they get a star player, they are going to waste those cheap years of play and then be stuck paying those guys market or above level for their play and they STILL won't have that star player. That is why the time to tank was now, not go for a meaningless play in game. This is how bad teams get stuck in purgatory.

Yeah, I mentioned a similar thing in a different thread...this season and potentially next season were the times to bottom out and hope for a Flagg or Dybantsa in the draft. WHILE, also evaluating what they have in Scoot and Sharpe.

The 'butterfly effect' of playing to meaningless wins on the backs of high minutes from Simons and Ayton in that winning stretch set the franchise back a decade.

Now, it doesn't really matter how the games go the remainder of the season. If they tank they'll still end up 9th--which is fine if you're looking for more role-players. If they play out of their minds and make the play-in, they'll get bounced by the 9th seed. If by some miracle they beat the 9th seed they'll easily get bounced by the 7-8, and certainly the OKCs of the West.

Truly, Crolshey has set the stage for treadmill city for a loooooong time in Portland. It reminds me somewhat of the mid-90s team under PJ and then Dunleavy, where they were just constantly getting bounced in the 1st round...except this team has way, way less talent. I forsee about 7 years of .300-.500 basketball in the Blazers' future.

[Walton1one]

A good point was brought up on the radio today, how Camara's improved play makes this quest for the play in even more baffling.

They have Camara at (2) more seasons on a cheap deal, Avdija has (3) more seasons on his cheap deal and unless they get a star player, they are going to waste those cheap years of play and then be stuck paying those guys market or above level for their play and they STILL won't have that star player. That is why the time to tank was now, not go for a meaningless play in game. This is how bad teams get stuck in purgatory.

Yeah, I mentioned a similar thing in a different thread...this season and potentially next season were the times to bottom out and hope for a Flagg or Dybantsa in the draft. WHILE, also evaluating what they have in Scoot and Sharpe.

The 'butterfly effect' of playing to meaningless wins on the backs of high minutes from Simons and Ayton in that winning stretch set the franchise back a decade.

Now, it doesn't really matter how the games go the remainder of the season. If they tank they'll still end up 9th--which is fine if you're looking for more role-players. If they play out of their minds and make the play-in, they'll get bounced by the 9th seed. If by some miracle they beat the 9th seed they'll easily get bounced by the 7-8, and certainly the OKCs of the West.

Truly, Crolshey has set the stage for treadmill city for a loooooong time in Portland. It reminds me somewhat of the mid-90s team under PJ and then Dunleavy, where they were just constantly getting bounced in the 1st round...except this team has way, way less talent. I forsee about 7 years of .300-.500 basketball in the Blazers' future.

I posted this elsewhere, but you are correct, they will be what CHI has been for the last 10 years....

2015\16 42-40
2016\17 41-41 lost 1st round
2017\18 27-55
2018\19 22-60
2019\20 22-43
2020\21 31-41
2021\22 46-36 lost 1st round
2022\23 40-42
2023\24 39-43
2024\25 23-35

[zzaj]

A good point was brought up on the radio today, how Camara's improved play makes this quest for the play in even more baffling.

They have Camara at (2) more seasons on a cheap deal, Avdija has (3) more seasons on his cheap deal and unless they get a star player, they are going to waste those cheap years of play and then be stuck paying those guys market or above level for their play and they STILL won't have that star player. That is why the time to tank was now, not go for a meaningless play in game. This is how bad teams get stuck in purgatory.

Yeah, I mentioned a similar thing in a different thread...this season and potentially next season were the times to bottom out and hope for a Flagg or Dybantsa in the draft. WHILE, also evaluating what they have in Scoot and Sharpe.

The 'butterfly effect' of playing to meaningless wins on the backs of high minutes from Simons and Ayton in that winning stretch set the franchise back a decade.

Now, it doesn't really matter how the games go the remainder of the season. If they tank they'll still end up 9th--which is fine if you're looking for more role-players. If they play out of their minds and make the play-in, they'll get bounced by the 9th seed. If by some miracle they beat the 9th seed they'll easily get bounced by the 7-8, and certainly the OKCs of the West.

Truly, Crolshey has set the stage for treadmill city for a loooooong time in Portland. It reminds me somewhat of the mid-90s team under PJ and then Dunleavy, where they were just constantly getting bounced in the 1st round...except this team has way, way less talent. I forsee about 7 years of .300-.500 basketball in the Blazers' future.

I posted this elsewhere, but you are correct, they will be what CHI has been for the last 10 years....

2015\16 42-40
2016\17 41-41 lost 1st round
2017\18 27-55
2018\19 22-60
2019\20 22-43
2020\21 31-41
2021\22 46-36 lost 1st round
2022\23 40-42
2023\24 39-43
2024\25 23-35

Yep, I'm in agreement...I would wager something like what you posted from CHI is what we should expect in the next decade. At least if Jody and Crolshey are still in place guiding the team decisions.

[DaVoiceMaster]

I think people sometimes forget that Camara turns 25 in about 2.5 months. He's not a 21 year old with a large improvement curve ahead

when PG13 was 25 he averaged 23-7-4. Camara is averaging 11-6-2
when PG 13 was 25 he had a PER of 20.9, a winshare/48 of .157, and a BPM of +4.9; Camara has a PER of 12.0, a .083 winshare/48 and a BPM of -0.9 (at 23 PG averaged 22-7-4)

and that was the season that George returned from that horrendous injury so he wasn't at full steam

Camara will steadily improve, but I don't think any massive leap is in his future. Maybe settles in around 17-7-4 with a few all-NBA defensive nominations in his belt

Counterpoint to that, Lillard was also a 23yo rookie if I recall correctly. I think too much is made about age for how a player develops or what they can become.

Counterpoint to my counterpoint, Dame was a 20ppg scorer from his first season… so what do I know?

Realistically, I think you’re right, I think his peak is probably a 17-20ppg scorer if all goes right. But, I’m rooting for him to defy my future predictions.

I've lost track of the counterpoints, but at 25, Dame averaged 25-4-7 with a PER of 22.2.

I think it's likely a disservice to Camara to compare him to 1st/2nd option type all-NBA players. I think he'll develop good handles but never be good enough to be a primary option. More like Tayshaun Prince or Michael Cooper or Eddie Jones or a defensive-minded Jerome Kersey or a rich man's Shane Battier. He might even make an all-star game or two, but that's a really steep hill

speaking of former Blazers, an efficient shooting Aminu with better BBIQ? That would be a pretty good player. Mo Harkless with a big motor? Stacy Augmon with an offensive game? Bob Gross with a defensive game?. High level glue guy with elite defense?

Id be happy with any of those players.