2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Special_Puppy]

The RAPM I linked to has KG as the best defender of the past 30 years. Maybe you are thinking of DBPM? You can find wonky results using any method

Okay, he's no KG, but he's a better defender than Andrei Kirilenko, Dwight Howard, and MJ? Bro, you need to close your excel spreadsheet and watch some games.

Imagine seriously arguing tubby is a better defender than Dwight Howard lmfao I'm cracking up just thinking about it, he's a **** layup line. Watch a game.

Point out to me the people who said that Jokic is a better defender than prime Dwight Howard?

[RRR3]

Okay, he's no KG, but he's a better defender than Andrei Kirilenko, Dwight Howard, and MJ? Bro, you need to close your excel spreadsheet and watch some games.

Imagine seriously arguing tubby is a better defender than Dwight Howard lmfao I'm cracking up just thinking about it, he's a **** layup line. Watch a game.

Point out to me the people who said that Jokic is a better defender than prime Dwight Howard?

You just linked data that said he is as your argument for why he’s not a bad defender?

[Special_Puppy]

Imagine seriously arguing tubby is a better defender than Dwight Howard lmfao I'm cracking up just thinking about it, he's a **** layup line. Watch a game.

Point out to me the people who said that Jokic is a better defender than prime Dwight Howard?

You just linked data that said he is as your argument for why he’s not a bad defender?

I said that every stat and method has wonky results in it. I don't take career RAPM data at face value. It (along with other advanced stats) does offer a nice *baseline* for hundreds of NBA players that you adjust up or down. Given that the baseline is pretty decidedly in favor of Jokic being a positive defender, you really need a *substantial* amount of evidence to overturn that finding and bring him down to being a negative defender and that evidence doesn't really exist especially as other advanced stats show Jokic as a positive defender.

[Big J]

Point out to me the people who said that Jokic is a better defender than prime Dwight Howard?

You just linked data that said he is as your argument for why he’s not a bad defender?

I said that every stat and method has wonky results in it. I don't take career RAPM data at face value. It (along with other advanced stats) does offer a nice *baseline* for hundreds of NBA players that you adjust up or down. Given that the baseline is pretty decidedly in favor of Jokic being a positive defender, you really need a *substantial* amount of evidence to overturn that finding and bring him down to being a negative defender and that evidence doesn't really exist especially as other advanced stats show Jokic as a positive defender.

Defensive stats are massively flawed. They don't capture true impact. Especially when it comes to big men. Everyone knows this.

[Special_Puppy]

You just linked data that said he is as your argument for why he’s not a bad defender?

I said that every stat and method has wonky results in it. I don't take career RAPM data at face value. It (along with other advanced stats) does offer a nice *baseline* for hundreds of NBA players that you adjust up or down. Given that the baseline is pretty decidedly in favor of Jokic being a positive defender, you really need a *substantial* amount of evidence to overturn that finding and bring him down to being a negative defender and that evidence doesn't really exist especially as other advanced stats show Jokic as a positive defender.

Defensive stats are massively flawed. They don't capture true impact. Especially when it comes to big men. Everyone knows this.

Top Defenders in career RAPM:
Kevin Garnett
Dikembe Mutombo
Alex Caruso
Draymond Green
Rudy Gobert
Tim Duncan
Ben Wallace

For such a "massively" flawed stat, all the top defenders on the list are among the most publicly acclaimed defenders of the past 30 years.

Again this is to say that you should take these estimate at face value. They're simply solid baselines on which to build your assessments of players. It does mean that the people who think Jokic is net negative defender need to provide a substantial amount of evidence to overturn that baseline and the evidence to do that simply doesn't exist

[Big J]

I said that every stat and method has wonky results in it. I don't take career RAPM data at face value. It (along with other advanced stats) does offer a nice *baseline* for hundreds of NBA players that you adjust up or down. Given that the baseline is pretty decidedly in favor of Jokic being a positive defender, you really need a *substantial* amount of evidence to overturn that finding and bring him down to being a negative defender and that evidence doesn't really exist especially as other advanced stats show Jokic as a positive defender.

Defensive stats are massively flawed. They don't capture true impact. Especially when it comes to big men. Everyone knows this.

Top Defenders in career RAPM:
Kevin Garnett
Dikembe Mutombo
Alex Caruso
Draymond Green
Rudy Gobert
Tim Duncan
Ben Wallace

For such a "massively" flawed stat, all the top defenders on the list are among the most publicly acclaimed defenders of the past 30 years.

Again this is to say that you should take these estimate at face value. They're simply solid baselines on which to build your assessments of players. It does mean that the people who think Jokic is net negative defender need to provide a substantial amount of evidence to overturn that baseline and the evidence to do that simply doesn't exist

My evidence I'd like to submit is his 2022 playoff series against GS where he got benched because they kept targeting him.

[RRR3]

Jokic’s fans play great defense I’ll give him that.

[Special_Puppy]

Defensive stats are massively flawed. They don't capture true impact. Especially when it comes to big men. Everyone knows this.

Top Defenders in career RAPM:
Kevin Garnett
Dikembe Mutombo
Alex Caruso
Draymond Green
Rudy Gobert
Tim Duncan
Ben Wallace

For such a "massively" flawed stat, all the top defenders on the list are among the most publicly acclaimed defenders of the past 30 years.

Again this is to say that you should take these estimate at face value. They're simply solid baselines on which to build your assessments of players. It does mean that the people who think Jokic is net negative defender need to provide a substantial amount of evidence to overturn that baseline and the evidence to do that simply doesn't exist

My evidence I'd like to submit is his 2022 playoff series against GS where he got benched because they kept targeting him.

That series is included in this stat

[Big J]

Top Defenders in career RAPM:
Kevin Garnett
Dikembe Mutombo
Alex Caruso
Draymond Green
Rudy Gobert
Tim Duncan
Ben Wallace

For such a "massively" flawed stat, all the top defenders on the list are among the most publicly acclaimed defenders of the past 30 years.

Again this is to say that you should take these estimate at face value. They're simply solid baselines on which to build your assessments of players. It does mean that the people who think Jokic is net negative defender need to provide a substantial amount of evidence to overturn that baseline and the evidence to do that simply doesn't exist

My evidence I'd like to submit is his 2022 playoff series against GS where he got benched because they kept targeting him.

That series is included in this stat

[RRR3]

I’m not saying the eye test is a reliable measure of defense by any means but I can’t think of another player besides Jokic who is pretty universally considered bad at defense but is apparently secretly good. So either he’s the biggest outlier ever for some indeterminable reason or the stats are wonky.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Read on Twitter

[Jaqua92]

I’m not saying the eye test is a reliable measure of defense by any means but I can’t think of another player besides Jokic who is pretty universally considered bad at defense but is apparently secretly good. So either he’s the biggest outlier ever for some indeterminable reason or the stats are wonky.

Hes neutral.

[falcolombardi]

Read on Twitter

Basketball landscape is addicted to hating and nostalgia

[scrabbarista]

I’m not saying the eye test is a reliable measure of defense by any means but I can’t think of another player besides Jokic who is pretty universally considered bad at defense but is apparently secretly good. So either he’s the biggest outlier ever for some indeterminable reason or the stats are wonky.

Hes neutral.

He's not pretty universally considered bad at defense.

That's just something you said.

Also, most people are really bad at judging defense.

Also, how in the world did you just offer an opinion immediately after saying, "This isn't a reliable soutce of information, but..."

We only have our eyes and the stats. If you discount your "unreliable" subjective experience watching, the only thing left is the stats, which generally paint him as a bit above average.

[BigGargamel]

This RRR guy is an extreme irrational Jokic hater. You can tell by his dozens of lazy posts that add absolutely nothing of value. He's resorted to name calling (tubby) because his whole shtick is falling apart. The ignore option would be your friend at this point. There's nothing worth discussing with that poster. Thankfully trolls don't come along at RealGM that often, but this guy definitely is one.

In other news, Jokic dropped a career high 19 assists tonight. The offense just completely runs through him. To those of you who are tired of watching offense that just spam 3 pointers, check out some Nuggets games. The offense is so fun to watch when he's on his game. Which is every night.

4 steals on defense, also. Not a great defender, but he's not as bad as his detractors seem to want to never shut up about. I guess you gotta pick nits somewhere, since he's running the NBA and has been for this entire decade and people get tired of that.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic is about to get back to back player of the month. He has been really good this month

[RRR3]

Calling Jokic tubby a few times doesn’t mean I’m not ranking him properly I said he’s neck and neck with SGA. If it bothers you that much I’ll stop but I’m gonna keep pushing back on the idea that he’s clearly better than SGA because data doesn’t support it.

[RB34]

Free Throw Man on fire.

[Infinite Llamas]

Calling Jokic tubby a few times doesn’t mean I’m not ranking him properly I said he’s neck and neck with SGA. If it bothers you that much I’ll stop but I’m gonna keep pushing back on the idea that he’s clearly better than SGA because data doesn’t support it.

I mean, we aren’t here to really change peoples minds here. I think that Jokic is the better player but I don’t think he’s miles ahead of SGA. I think it’s the closest someone has been to matching him during the Jokic MVP run.

These things get hostile because people get over emotional and find ways to trash the other player opposed to praising the guy they support. And I’m guilty of this too, but I can’t say enough good things about SGA. He’s earned every bit of praise he’s gotten this season and I truly wish these threads wouldn’t get so toxic year in and year out.

[bstein14]

My evidence I'd like to submit is his 2022 playoff series against GS where he got benched because they kept targeting him.

That series is included in this stat

You can be an all-time great post and help side defender like Gobert, and not have the lateral quickness to step out on the perimeter and contest 3's from guards and switch pick and rolls. It's very possible a great "team defender" can be exploited in certain matchups.

Ben Wallace was incredible defending 1 on 1 in the post, and incredible as a team defender when he could roam and play help side but he struggled a bit on quicker good shooting perimeter bigs because it pulled him out of the paint he wasn't as effective as a team defender. What really unlocked the cheat code for the 04 Pistons was when Sheed came to town he'd guard the KGs, Dirks, Webbers of the NBA the elite perimeter fours and Ben got to roam and be the best helpside defender in the league.