Channing Frye: Nostalgia is KILLING the NBA. 90s basketball era with MJ and Kobe was not as clean as you think.

[SkyBill40]

People like you this delusional regarding a **** GOAT debate is honestly just weird.

It's what we call SARCASM, my dude. FFS. Get a grip. It's not even remotely that serious. People like you are hilarious.

Nothing you said suggested sarcasm, especially when you double down. my god.

Next time I'll make sure to use the green font since sarcasm rarely translates well through direct text. But sure, dude. Whatever works for you and your ilk.

[zero rings]

They didn't need to carry anything, they were popular basketball players. The league had plenty of popular basketball players that kept fans watching. You can speculate all you want but thats all thats ever gonna be.

The average American had no idea who those guys were unless they were playing against MJ in the Finals.

You didn't know who they were. Plenty of others did.

Basketball fans like you and I knew who they were. The casual viewer did not know about them or care to know about them.

MJ was the only player in the 90’s who drew any kind of national interest. Without him the NBA would have been an afterthought, just like it was the moment he retired in 1998.

Casual fans in the 90s did not care about mid rangers and post ups. They only cared about watching MJ.

[trickshot]

He's right. As a 90s person we are one of the worst generations at over-romanticizing that entire period of humanity. Mind you, many didn't even have access to the type of advanced stats we have now and are just winging their memory of the better yesteryears. I still watch old playoff series on youtube and it makes me pull my hair how primitive it is. Very little is happening elsewhere, the whole offense is almost entirely zonal. Because of how traditional the positions are ball movement is non existent and when it exists is almost just a formality precursor to a contested pull up, rinse and repeat.

There's room to enjoy both styles, but just don't call it better. It absolutely is not. Even the so called goated post moves are back down, back down, contested hook shot. The average back to basket big wasn't spinning and pivoting like Mchale or Hakeem.

[___Rand___]

1st, the game itself is boring now. (already discussed ad nauseam elsewhere).


2. There is no compelling story. When Warriors came out with their Splash Brothers and won, that captured some interest for a few years because it was new, and it changed the game. When Bron came into the league that galvanized interest, including his early struggles, moves to Miami. I know some think Wemby is that next thing, but he isn't. There was hope Giannis might bring that level of attention a few years back, but that has petered out. Jokic is a basketball god in the eyes of the serious fans, but his game doesn't grab the casual attention. IF Embiid was an actual professional athlete competing for the Finals year in and out, that might capture some interest but alas, he is the modern day hero - a pathetic disappointment. IF IF he redeems himself next season, now that would be a story of broader interest, albeit a short-lived one as he'd be too old to continue that story. In contrast, WNBA has a compelling story in an athlete that's generating interest.


3. There's also the inherent tension between building a team brand and personality brand. The player power movement has hurt team brands. In the old days Bird was Celtic. Jordan was Bulls. Magic was Lakers. There was synergy between the two. Now KD is sun-nets-warriors-thunder and heading elsewhere towards another mediocre season, or endless speculation about this or that superstar wanting to move to greener pastures adds neither to his brand nor to the teams'. I'm not saying player movement is wrong, but it does hurt both player and team brands.

[Hornet Mania]

Ronald Reagan had a quote, 'If you're explaining, you're losing."

I feel the same way about this sort of stuff. The guy has a point but it really doesn't matter, he's explaining why people shouldn't put MJ on a pedestal but he's already lost the argument. The pedestal is there and no amount of video essays is going to change it.

For whatever reason MJ, and to a lesser extent Kobe, captured the cultural zeigeist more than Lebron and the players of this generation. The casual public just doesn't find them as compelling. That's why we keep talking about Michael Jordan, because no one more interesting to the average schmuck has shown up since.

[Lalouie]

nostalgia is just fighting back at people today yakking about how much better today is than yesterday

no other sport obsesses about this like the nba

Nostalgia is just selective amnesia.

nostalgia in sports takes us to a happy place,,,amnesia or not

baseball is pretty happy.
and football doesn't bother.

basketball makes a big deal about it.
we all take it for granted that the sports athlete is much more advanced as a natural evolution of things, so why does basketball want to dismiss it's history and try to convince everyone it's athletes are so much better than 40yrs ago.........leave it alone

[Ice Man]

Here's an interesting stat. In 1989, the Bad Boys gave up 104.7 points per possession. Hand checking, men were men, the game is so soft now, blah blah blah. OKC this year is giving up 106.0 points per possession. Damn near the same thing.

Yes the way in the which the game is played has evolved, but the belief (which is almost universal) that the defenses in that era were so much tougher than today's defenses, due to rule changes, is just plain wrong.

[Lalouie]

Here's an interesting stat. In 1989, the Bad Boys gave up 104.7 points per possession. Hand checking, men were men, the game is so soft now, blah blah blah. OKC this year is giving up 106.0 points per possession. Damn near the same thing.

Yes the way in the which the game is played has evolved, but the belief (which is almost universal) that the defenses in that era were so much tougher than today's defenses, due to rule changes, is just plain wrong.

you are confusing two things....." Bad Boys gave up 104.7 points - OKC this year is giving up 106.0 points "
",,,,but the belief (which is almost universal) that the defenses in that era were so much tougher than today's defenses,,,,"

tougher is not the same as ppp

maybe i'm the only one who recognizes that these two things are not the same - AND also i want to differentiate "toughnesss" versus "roughness". i say the old defense were ROUGHER NOT TOUGHER. there is a palpable difference between the two. detroit slammed mj to the floor. they'd do the same to shai

if you just separate the two, rougher and ppp, then it becomes easier to resolve. you can adjust for ppp by accepting the different eras, but rough is ROUGH. laying a shoulder on some dude if he gets too cute is a quantifiable act

[YogurtProducer]

People like you this delusional regarding a **** GOAT debate is honestly just weird.

It's what we call SARCASM, my dude. FFS. Get a grip. It's not even remotely that serious. People like you are hilarious.

I need to start using this excuse when people call out my bad takes.

One of the weirdest responses I have ever got

[Profound23]

The NBA is way better now. Just off the top of my head we now have:

More three point shooting than ever
The Gather step
Kevin Hart
Shaqtin A Fool
The Wingstop No Flex Zone commercial
NBA on TNT

People just can't appreciate how great the NBA is now.

Besides the bold, I hope this was sarcasm. And even with the bold, the 90s had NBA Inside Stuff every Saturday.

Plus the 90s had NBA Superstars VHS with videos like:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Ah, I miss these simple times.

[audiosway]

Show me a guy currently in the NBA that tears his ACHILLES, walks out and walks back out to hit 2 free throws before leaving the court. Then, I'll agree.

That's the difference between 80s/90s basketball and now.

Kevin Durant

No, that's not what I mean. Kobe Bryant tore his achilles on the floor while getting fouled. He stood up and walked to the FT line. He hit two free throws then walked to the locker room.

Another example. Larry Bird broke his FACE on the floor during a playoff game. Came back after halftime and won the game.

Dirk was really the last of that era of players. Dirk had the flu during the 2011 title run. I've seen him roll ankles and go back onto the court. Kobe and Dirk were 00s. But, still it was that old school era of basketball where they worked hard on and off the court.

[ScrantonBulls]

Show me a guy currently in the NBA that tears his ACHILLES, walks out and walks back out to hit 2 free throws before leaving the court. Then, I'll agree.

That's the difference between 80s/90s basketball and now.

Kevin Durant

No, that's not what I mean. Kobe Bryant tore his achilles on the floor while getting fouled. He stood up and walked to the FT line. He hit two free throws then walked to the locker room.

Another example. Larry Bird broke his FACE on the floor during a playoff game. Came back after halftime and won the game.

Dirk was really the last of that era of players. Dirk had the flu during the 2011 title run. I've seen him roll ankles and go back onto the court. Kobe and Dirk were 00s. But, still it was that old school era of basketball where they worked hard on and off the court.

You mean like Klay shooting free throws in 2019 after tearing his ACL? Take those nostalgia glasses off.

Watch on YouTube

[BlzMwt]

Guys now are incredible, but they don’t care as much as MJ & Kobe did. Kobe was out there giving 110% effort in damn All Star games. MJ took every slight that was said about him personally, and avenged every single one of them.

You are kidding yourself if you think MJ and Kobe cared more than others. Kobe and MJ were straight up d-bags who due to not coming up in the social media era have been able to market that as "caring".

You think LBJ "doesnt care" when the dude spends $1m+ a year to keep his body right? If he didnt care, why would he play into his 40s with generational wealth locked up?

You seriously think Giannis doesnt care? Or Curry? or any other great player in the league?

All because they don't try in an exhibition game lol

James continues to play because he's on a mission to eclipse Jordan's accomplishments which he'll never do. He can't stand being second. As you mentioned, he has generational weath, so why bother otherwise?

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Did Lebron personally tell you that was the reason he continues to play?

Considering the Lakers haven't won a title or been in contention for half a decade do you really think that's why he's sticking around? He's already got the scoring record. He's not dumb... what can he realistically hope to do to eclipse another Jordan accomplishment that is meaningful?

Just because it makes sense in your biased mind doesn't make it true.

[Ben-N1ce]

I'm nostalgic for guys like Bird As Mashburn said at 3:30 " this is a different breed" Story is funny. taking things personal and trying to destroy guys and talking trash and backing it up is what Is like to see more of.

Watch on YouTube

[LascelleL]

Players on average are more skilled now. They're more athletic....but they care significantly less about the Game of Basketball and it shows. We went from Rivals like Bird and Magic to psychopaths like Isiah Thomas, MJ, Kobe and KG...even the Iversons who didn't really care about practice played with a certain level of desperation and leave it all on the floor that this generation just doesn't have.

People care less because the players in the league do. At least the American ones (Newer Gen) for the most part. It's why I like Antman so much.

[SkyBill40]

You are kidding yourself if you think MJ and Kobe cared more than others. Kobe and MJ were straight up d-bags who due to not coming up in the social media era have been able to market that as "caring".

You think LBJ "doesnt care" when the dude spends $1m+ a year to keep his body right? If he didnt care, why would he play into his 40s with generational wealth locked up?

You seriously think Giannis doesnt care? Or Curry? or any other great player in the league?

All because they don't try in an exhibition game lol

James continues to play because he's on a mission to eclipse Jordan's accomplishments which he'll never do. He can't stand being second. As you mentioned, he has generational weath, so why bother otherwise?

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Did Lebron personally tell you that was the reason he continues to play?

Considering the Lakers haven't won a title or been in contention for half a decade do you really think that's why he's sticking around? He's already got the scoring record. He's not dumb... what can he realistically hope to do to eclipse another Jordan accomplishment that is meaningful?

Just because it makes sense in your biased mind doesn't make it true.

Yeah, sure. He tOld mE diREctLy.

Again, sarcasm is apparently lost on you as well as a few others.

[ScrantonBulls]

James continues to play because he's on a mission to eclipse Jordan's accomplishments which he'll never do. He can't stand being second. As you mentioned, he has generational weath, so why bother otherwise?

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Did Lebron personally tell you that was the reason he continues to play?

Considering the Lakers haven't won a title or been in contention for half a decade do you really think that's why he's sticking around? He's already got the scoring record. He's not dumb... what can he realistically hope to do to eclipse another Jordan accomplishment that is meaningful?

Just because it makes sense in your biased mind doesn't make it true.

Yeah, sure. He tOld mE diREctLy.

Again, sarcasm is apparently lost on you as well as a few others.

[SkyBill40]

Did Lebron personally tell you that was the reason he continues to play?

Considering the Lakers haven't won a title or been in contention for half a decade do you really think that's why he's sticking around? He's already got the scoring record. He's not dumb... what can he realistically hope to do to eclipse another Jordan accomplishment that is meaningful?

Just because it makes sense in your biased mind doesn't make it true.

Yeah, sure. He tOld mE diREctLy.

Again, sarcasm is apparently lost on you as well as a few others.

I fully know what it means. Not my fault you don't have any understanding it was precisely that or lack the comprehension to accept it. Time to move on. You bore me.

To be honest, I don't personally care if you agree with me or not, sarcasm being the original message or straight up bluntness being stated elsewhere. I said what I said and that is it.

[DaPessimist]

i dont see the problem...why are people so against 3-point chucking but so excited about long 2 chucking?

I want to see variety. Deep 3's, short 3's, long 2's, midrange, midrange post, midrange triple-threat, low post, hooks, layups, dunks, etc..

The hunt for 3pnt shots is turning the game into a math equation. The NBA is already a make or miss league. When the majority of makes or misses are 3's, it only exacerbates the problem.

I'm not sure what the actual numbers are, but it feels like we get more and more blowout games every year. The number of 'blowouts' at halftime has to be up. It really doesn't matter if the game is close in the end if nobody is there to watch it. How many people stuck around for the end of the OKC vs. MIN game tonight?

Everything you said is still a big part of the game except long twos. They’ve simply replaced those with threes.

Was watching John Paxson pass up an open three to step in to a long two (lol) really that great?

Is the league truly suffering from the lack of Bill Cartwright post ups?

I think the league is actually in a good place overall. The volume of 3pnt shooting is honestly my only major complaint. I think it's something that is ultimately going to have to be addressed though with some type of rule change.

[Bergmaniac]

The Jordan and Kobe's marketing machines have been so successful that they have turned the most awful to watch period in modern NBA history (the late 90s to early 2000s) into a golden era for the league in the minds of so many people. It's bizarre to me, I for one don't miss at all the low pace and low scoring grindfests of the era or all the guys who tried to be Jordan by chucking lots of shots and failed miserably.