Lamelo Ball by the numbers

[Billl]

I still like lamelo as a prospect with star potential. Yes, he currently makes all sorts of knucklehead plays and doesn't play any D, but people forget that he's 23. As a long suffering pistons fan, I've see how poor management can completely stunt player growth - and how quickly guys can turn it around if the environment improves.

[cupcakesnake]

He is best example I can think of, of why stats doesn't always mean anything. Rubio was 12 ppg. scorer, had more positive impact on his team than Lamelo scoring 30 a game, fight me. Hornets need to find a fool buyer fast, you will never win with that guy on a team.

Despite them both being amongst the best passers to ever play basketball, they're very different players. So much of Rubio's impact was defense. He's one of the best guard defenders I've ever seen. When I think of defensive hands and anticipation, Rubio is the first guy to come to mind. He could guard 3 positions, and disrupt everything off the ball, like a calmer Caruso.

Defense isn't quite as mapped out statistically like offense is, so the "stats" will always give us a better picture of offensive output, making Lamelo look like he's on another level just based on the boxscore. Overall though, stats say Rubio is much better than Lamelo, if you're willing to dig into on/off and defensive metrics.

Offensively, these are 2 funny extremes. Lamelo has no fear or conscious when it comes to trying to score. Rubio was terrified of the rim. Rubio's total lack of scoring threat made him focus entirely on playmaking, which he made work, but it was far from ideal and thing that most held him back from being a star in the NBA. Lamelo is taking a ton of shots and operating as the #1 offensive option for better or for worse. Rubio had to find a way to complement better scoring talent, because it wasn't something he could do on any level. Lamelo struggles to score inside the 3-point line... but Rubio is arguably the worst interior scorer of any NBA player ever.

Rubio was definitely very flawed, but for a guy who scored in low double digits on 38% shooting, he is one of the best you will ever find, so I just used that example for extreme purpose. Another thing with Rubio, he was very smart, amazing floor mapper, and not just offensively, he was such a good help defender for a guard, he just knew where to be on the court.

He's my favorite Wolf ever. I miss him so much. I still have resentment at Thibs for trading him just so we could sign... Jeff Teague. We ended up getting him back (along with Jaden McDaniels!) and everything was made right again in the world... until we traded him again for Taurean Prince. I even started becoming a Cleveland fan just because it was so fun to watch Rubio, and I got lucky because they stayed fun after he left.

As the T-Wolves struggled with being a talented but low-iq team with no playmaking, it was always frustrating to know we'd let Rubio go so easily. It was hard not to picture him as the perfect veteran complement to Ant and KAT, organizing the offense and making the decisions and letting those two just be pure scoring threats. He's only 34 now, but injuries and poor mental health led him to leaving the NBA. I wish him the best, and hope he's having the best life back in Spain. I know he played for Barc last year, but haven't heard of him much since.

[SeattleJazzFan]

hornets coaching staff needs to rein him in.

[EmpireFalls]

Fans are lazy and like to treat whatever they see as the only possible thing, even when there are perfectly reasonable explanations for why things could easily go differently.

People forget or don't care about the 2022 Hornets, who won 43 games in one of those rare seasons where the East was deeper than the West. They missed the playoffs, but would have made it in the West. The Hornets put a barely okay roster around Ball (injured Hayward, Terry Rozier, pre-scandal Bridges), and they were a top 10 offense. Melo has mostly been injured since then, but the template for him as a foundational offensive piece looked pretty clear.

Just to add, the starting center on that 43 win team (which was also decimated by COVID midway through the season…) was Mason Plumlee. They’ve never even given LaMelo a playable big until Williams, but they’ve only played 40 games together.

The team sucks around him, but: Miller-Melo-Williams has a good net rating. I do see some promise there long term.

[SA37]

An incredibly talented (but flawed) guard who is being forced into a ludicrously high usage role by a terrible front office. Also is scapegoated and looked down upon by casual fans who don’t know anything about Charlotte except for him. It’s beyond tiresome. I’ll give you a stat - the team has ONE win without him this season. One.

He needs to be a hybrid of on/off ball, in an up tempo system, with lots of shooting and playmaking around him. Like in 21-22 when they won 43 games and he led a great offense. Now we’ve done the opposite, tried to make him into Harden 2.0 or someone like Cade. He’s not a heliocentric player at heart despite the way he’s being used. He’s an excellent spot up shooter and plays great in transition, but he’s not a great rim finisher and he somehow gets no calls, so teams just play super physical with him. His passing is incredible even still. Defense is actually not a catastrophe but he’s weak and doesn’t always lock in.

All the idiots on here blame him for taking shots and don’t watch the team. They cannot create a shot without him. I’m serious. He has some bad habits but I’m trying to tell you, no one else on the team can do anything.

He is like a much better version of Jason Williams.

Lamelo is only 23 (!), so there is still a lot of space for him to mature and really use his skills more efficiently. Part of that probably comes if/when he is on a better team and isn't doing it all, but this is the age for him to get that stuff out of his system.

[hamncheese]

He's the younger Ball that needs to be teamed up with his older brother and Gradey Dick, then add Kevin Love and Leaky Black

You want Love, Black, Dick, and two Balls?

[Hornet Mania]

The next few years will answer that. I think he can be a winning player, but the last few years have offered no opportunity to make that happen even if he were healthy.

As CCS mentioned, people forget Melo was an All-Star with a major role on a team that would make the playoffs most years. That team was by far the most talent he's ever been surrounded with, then you had the Bridges DV, various injuries including to Melo himself, and then the current tear-down situation.

I think he's an elite offensive engine that could excel in a more structured environment. His feel for the game is fantastic and while he does go rogue he's also known to be very coachable in the sense he doesn't buck against authority overtly and does try to do what the HC asks. For example early in the year he was shooting like 14 threes a game and not attacking the paint nearly enough, Charles Lee told him to start driving more and his style of attack has shifted to match. He still shoots plenty of 3s, of course, but is no longer neglecting his talent for getting into the paint and breaking down defenses to create open shots for others.

I will say, and this is not even necessarily a critique just an observation, that Melo never projects to be a true team leader. He's a libertine at heart, he does put in the work and is apparently all about ball but he's always going to march to the beat of his own drum. He would benefit from a 2nd star, or at least significant role player, to be the true team captain and set a tone for everyone else.

[Onus]

He's a flashier D-Lo. Complete fool's gold

[NCHeels2008]

Lamelo Ball has crazy rare playmaking ability. Super creative, super risky. He's one of the only players who regularly does things that I've never seen before. He's also a decent shooter- or would be- with better shot selection.

He is tough to evaluate in his context. It's a team is injured, and full of inefficient score-first types who don't play defense. With someone like Lamelo, you like him having offensive freedom, but not to this extent where he's often tasked with just doing whatever to produce a shot.

I get the temptation to write Lamelo off as a talented player who isn't really serious enough to be a real competitor or difference maker. I'd like to see him at least once in a more normal basketball environment before I feel like that evaluation has weight. What would he look like if you put him on Houston, or Minnesota. Teams with defense that could really use an aggressive playmaker? I hope we'll get to know.

Everyone is currently singing Cade Cunningham's praises and crapping on Lamelo, but swap those two and I'm not sure much changes for either of their teams (Cade is a way better defender, Lamelo is the superior playmaker).

IDK locker room wise Cade seems way more mature

[tamaraw08]

When exactly did Charlotte start tanking?

About the time that they lost Tre Mann, Grant Williams, and Brandon Miller for the season while they simultaneously had LaMelo Ball and Mark Williams on injury protocols where they routinely miss games to try to keep them healthy.

The vast majority of this board doesn’t even know they play for the Hornets or their injury status.

In fact a lot of people in this thread may not even know those players even exist (as evidenced by the Mark Williams threads).

And even if they do know them, I’d bet all I have that no one in this thread has actually watched more than two full Hornets games.

Memphis lost Ja and other role players last season, team kept fighting.
Dallas lost Luka for 6 weeks and Lively too and they kept playing hard.
Orlando lost BOTH Banchero AND Wagner and they never thought about tanking.
and Charlotte immediately started tanking after losing a couple of role players?
Grant played the first 16 games.
Miller played 22 out of the first 26 games.
but Man, you got me, you are right, I don't watch a lot of Charlotte games because I like to witness teams with their best players play hard and smart basketball and not a side show freak like Melo who jacks up 12 3's at a relatively low % and commit numerous stupid turnovers.
This lame excuse that Melo sucks on defense because the whole team is tanking and also plays bad team defense is just crazy.
Again, this team jumped 29th on DRTG last year to 19th this current season.
Admit it or not, Lamelo has not only fail to mature after FIVE YEARS but he actually has regressed.
per 100 possessions
attempting nearly 18 3's at his LOWEST 3PT% career.
2nd career lowest assist
2nd worst in career turnovers
CAREER LOW IN rebs.
career low in EFG%

[yosemiteben]

About the time that they lost Tre Mann, Grant Williams, and Brandon Miller for the season while they simultaneously had LaMelo Ball and Mark Williams on injury protocols where they routinely miss games to try to keep them healthy.

The vast majority of this board doesn’t even know they play for the Hornets or their injury status.

In fact a lot of people in this thread may not even know those players even exist (as evidenced by the Mark Williams threads).

And even if they do know them, I’d bet all I have that no one in this thread has actually watched more than two full Hornets games.

Memphis lost Ja and other role players last season, team kept fighting.
Dallas lost Luka for 6 weeks and Lively too and they kept playing hard.
Orlando lost BOTH Banchero AND Wagner and they never thought about tanking.
and Charlotte immediately started tanking after losing a couple of role players?
Grant played the first 16 games.
Miller played 22 out of the first 26 games.

Right, we didn't start to aggressively tank until we had three core rotation guys out for the season.

Last night, this was our injury / inactive list:

LaMelo Ball - injury management
Brandon Miller - out for season
Tre Mann - out for season
Grant Williams - out for season
Josh Okogie - out with hamstring injury
Daquan Jeffries - out with knee injury
Tidjane Salaun - out with ankle injury

This is in addition to Mark Williams being on an injury management plan as well where he routinely misses games.

This is also in addition to two guys who have been receiving relatively substantial roles in our rotation (Nurkic and Payton) being DNP-CDs.

So that is 10 guys that are either actively injured, on injury plans where they are trying to keep from getting injured, or that we just don't want to play despite it being clear that they are rotation players.

We aren't trying to win.

[cupcakesnake]

Lamelo Ball has crazy rare playmaking ability. Super creative, super risky. He's one of the only players who regularly does things that I've never seen before. He's also a decent shooter- or would be- with better shot selection.

He is tough to evaluate in his context. It's a team is injured, and full of inefficient score-first types who don't play defense. With someone like Lamelo, you like him having offensive freedom, but not to this extent where he's often tasked with just doing whatever to produce a shot.

I get the temptation to write Lamelo off as a talented player who isn't really serious enough to be a real competitor or difference maker. I'd like to see him at least once in a more normal basketball environment before I feel like that evaluation has weight. What would he look like if you put him on Houston, or Minnesota. Teams with defense that could really use an aggressive playmaker? I hope we'll get to know.

Everyone is currently singing Cade Cunningham's praises and crapping on Lamelo, but swap those two and I'm not sure much changes for either of their teams (Cade is a way better defender, Lamelo is the superior playmaker).

IDK locker room wise Cade seems way more mature

Probably. I don't know either of them personally and I rarely form strong opinions about someone's personality unless we get a ton of info on that. I haven't heard anything good or bad about Melo or Cade in this regard so I don't have an opinion.

[Big J]

He reminds me of the kids who used to get sent to detention. All he needs is an old school authoritarian style coach who will put him in his place.

Like Steve Clifford?

No, someone who Melo would actually respect.

[tamaraw08]

The vast majority of this board doesn’t even know they play for the Hornets or their injury status.

In fact a lot of people in this thread may not even know those players even exist (as evidenced by the Mark Williams threads).

And even if they do know them, I’d bet all I have that no one in this thread has actually watched more than two full Hornets games.

Memphis lost Ja and other role players last season, team kept fighting.
Dallas lost Luka for 6 weeks and Lively too and they kept playing hard.
Orlando lost BOTH Banchero AND Wagner and they never thought about tanking.
and Charlotte immediately started tanking after losing a couple of role players?
Grant played the first 16 games.
Miller played 22 out of the first 26 games.

Right, we didn't start to aggressively tank until we had three core rotation guys out for the season.

Last night, this was our injury / inactive list:

LaMelo Ball - injury management
Brandon Miller - out for season
Tre Mann - out for season
Grant Williams - out for season
Josh Okogie - out with hamstring injury
Daquan Jeffries - out with knee injury
Tidjane Salaun - out with ankle injury

This is in addition to Mark Williams being on an injury management plan as well where he routinely misses games.

This is also in addition to two guys who have been receiving relatively substantial roles in our rotation (Nurkic and Payton) being DNP-CDs.

So that is 10 guys that are either actively injured, on injury plans where they are trying to keep from getting injured, or that we just don't want to play despite it being clear that they are rotation players.

We aren't trying to win.

I completely understand that this team is tanking hard right now but it didn't start until maybe until after 30 games or so?
But still, it doesn't give an excuse for Ball to simply jack up nearly 18 3's per 100 possessions at a low % while having 2nd lowest assists at a high turnover rate and playing crappy defense.
I glanced at other guards on tanking teams like Portland. Wizards, Jazz, NONE of them including well known chucker Jordan Poole is taking 3's as much as Lamelo.

[ItsDanger]

Lamelo is not a winning player. He needs the complimentary players around him to mask the flaws. Unfortunately, they want to get paid too. This results in the current situation.

[Bornstellar]

He is a great play maker with excellent court vision. He has decent scoring prowess and shooting ability but his shot selection is terrible and he does not play a focused or serious type of ball. He also is a poor defensive player.

He has talent but he is immature and generally a clown. He needs to be more serious in his approach. He seems like someone who enjoys the lifestyle the NBA affords and skates by on his innate talent without realizing his full potential. Part of it is his personality but the other part is the environment/culture he plays in.

If he ever wants to be taken seriously then he needs to get serious, plain and simple. Hornets culture also needs to change but he needs to be a leader in that. Doesn't help that he's also super injury prone

[cgf]

He's a very talented 23yo who has a lot to learn about playing winning basketball.

[reamily]

Bottom line is he is getting a max second contract, dont care what people say unless sa I will be out of the league before my second contract expires..

[Ambrose]

Lamelo Ball has crazy rare playmaking ability. Super creative, super risky. He's one of the only players who regularly does things that I've never seen before. He's also a decent shooter- or would be- with better shot selection.

He is tough to evaluate in his context. It's a team is injured, and full of inefficient score-first types who don't play defense. With someone like Lamelo, you like him having offensive freedom, but not to this extent where he's often tasked with just doing whatever to produce a shot.

I get the temptation to write Lamelo off as a talented player who isn't really serious enough to be a real competitor or difference maker. I'd like to see him at least once in a more normal basketball environment before I feel like that evaluation has weight. What would he look like if you put him on Houston, or Minnesota. Teams with defense that could really use an aggressive playmaker? I hope we'll get to know.

Everyone is currently singing Cade Cunningham's praises and crapping on Lamelo, but swap those two and I'm not sure much changes for either of their teams (Cade is a way better defender, Lamelo is the superior playmaker).

This reads as insane to me.

Cade came into the league a year after, to a worse situation, is far more durable, and is already winning more with a group that no one in the world would consider good. Oh, and he's a straight up better player. Like they aren't even on the same tier.

[yosemiteben]

Memphis lost Ja and other role players last season, team kept fighting.
Dallas lost Luka for 6 weeks and Lively too and they kept playing hard.
Orlando lost BOTH Banchero AND Wagner and they never thought about tanking.
and Charlotte immediately started tanking after losing a couple of role players?
Grant played the first 16 games.
Miller played 22 out of the first 26 games.

Right, we didn't start to aggressively tank until we had three core rotation guys out for the season.

Last night, this was our injury / inactive list:

LaMelo Ball - injury management
Brandon Miller - out for season
Tre Mann - out for season
Grant Williams - out for season
Josh Okogie - out with hamstring injury
Daquan Jeffries - out with knee injury
Tidjane Salaun - out with ankle injury

This is in addition to Mark Williams being on an injury management plan as well where he routinely misses games.

This is also in addition to two guys who have been receiving relatively substantial roles in our rotation (Nurkic and Payton) being DNP-CDs.

So that is 10 guys that are either actively injured, on injury plans where they are trying to keep from getting injured, or that we just don't want to play despite it being clear that they are rotation players.

We aren't trying to win.

I completely understand that this team is tanking hard right now but it didn't start until maybe until after 30 games or so?
But still, it doesn't give an excuse for Ball to simply jack up nearly 18 3's per 100 possessions at a low % while having 2nd lowest assists at a high turnover rate and playing crappy defense.
I glanced at other guards on tanking teams like Portland. Wizards, Jazz, NONE of them including well known chucker Jordan Poole is taking 3's as much as Lamelo.

It's almost like LaMelo is being encouraged to do that by the coaching staff. I'd suggest perusing the stats about our team's shot profile as a whole and then ask yourself if LaMelo is just going rogue or if this is intentional.