Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from?

[Rust_Cohle]

The myth comes from disgruntled former NBA players who are jealous of modern NBA players and feel the need to put them down to glorify themselves and their era.

I mean look at a guy like Gilbert Arenas who was a nice scorer in his short-lived 3 year prime, but was a career loser, horrible teammate and bad leader who was selfish, awful defensively, never made it past the 1st round and ruined his franchise for years based on his shenanigans. Now he has a podcast on YouTube and acts like he was Kobe level and makes horrible hot takes about current NBA players on a constant basis. He has a big fan base who believe his myths and revisionist history.

Fans also tend to analyze the 1990s NBA by only looking at the top players and top player highlights while ignoring that most of the teams were pretty bad. Yeah the Bulls, the Suns, the Jazz, the Spurs, the Sonics, the Rockets etc. were great teams, but there were so many bad teams with players that wouldn't make the NBA today.

The good thing is guys like LBJ, Steph, Durant etc. realize this and have said they won't trash the current NBA players like their predecessors...that should be good going forward.

We have had a ton of bad teams this past decade too. The Sixers during the process were setting records for low win count. I agree there is more talent in the league overall today, but tons of **** teams as well in the last 10 years. The East from 2010 onward was an absolute joke. The leastern conference for a reason.

[TheGeneral99]

The myth comes from disgruntled former NBA players who are jealous of modern NBA players and feel the need to put them down to glorify themselves and their era.

I mean look at a guy like Gilbert Arenas who was a nice scorer in his short-lived 3 year prime, but was a career loser, horrible teammate and bad leader who was selfish, awful defensively, never made it past the 1st round and ruined his franchise for years based on his shenanigans. Now he has a podcast on YouTube and acts like he was Kobe level and makes horrible hot takes about current NBA players on a constant basis. He has a big fan base who believe his myths and revisionist history.

Fans also tend to analyze the 1990s NBA by only looking at the top players and top player highlights while ignoring that most of the teams were pretty bad. Yeah the Bulls, the Suns, the Jazz, the Spurs, the Sonics, the Rockets etc. were great teams, but there were so many bad teams with players that wouldn't make the NBA today.

The good thing is guys like LBJ, Steph, Durant etc. realize this and have said they won't trash the current NBA players like their predecessors...that should be good going forward.

We have had a ton of bad teams this past decade too. The Sixers during the process were setting records for low win count. I agree there is more talent in the league overall today, but tons of **** teams as well in the last 10 years. The East from 2010 onward was an absolute joke. The leastern conference for a reason.

There are bad teams today, for sure, but there were also a ton of bad teams in any era.

I'm saying that old heads are acting like the 1980s and 1990s was a better era, it wasn't.

[Johnny Bball]

Play is more physical in the paint. Everyone admits that much. The game was played more in the paint in the 90's.

There was no resticted area in most of the 90's. The rule was instituted to " address concerns about excessive collisions under the basket and make the block/charge call less ambiguous for referees". There was no insistance on verticiality. You didn't get an call just because the ballandler bumped someone beside the basket. You could touch other players and handcheck and steer them for all of the 90's.

Conclusion? It wasn't more physical, just because.

Briliance.

[LuDux1]

NSFW

Watch on YouTube

[Tottery]

I think the biggest change is the lack of back to basket play. The 90's through part of the 2000's had a plethora of big men pounding their way to the basket. They were willing to give and take. Now, due to rule changes and the 3 ball being so dominant, we see more people flopping when they are posted up. It's all about getting to the other end and putting up a 3 pt shot.

[Rust_Cohle]

The myth comes from disgruntled former NBA players who are jealous of modern NBA players and feel the need to put them down to glorify themselves and their era.

I mean look at a guy like Gilbert Arenas who was a nice scorer in his short-lived 3 year prime, but was a career loser, horrible teammate and bad leader who was selfish, awful defensively, never made it past the 1st round and ruined his franchise for years based on his shenanigans. Now he has a podcast on YouTube and acts like he was Kobe level and makes horrible hot takes about current NBA players on a constant basis. He has a big fan base who believe his myths and revisionist history.

Fans also tend to analyze the 1990s NBA by only looking at the top players and top player highlights while ignoring that most of the teams were pretty bad. Yeah the Bulls, the Suns, the Jazz, the Spurs, the Sonics, the Rockets etc. were great teams, but there were so many bad teams with players that wouldn't make the NBA today.

The good thing is guys like LBJ, Steph, Durant etc. realize this and have said they won't trash the current NBA players like their predecessors...that should be good going forward.

We have had a ton of bad teams this past decade too. The Sixers during the process were setting records for low win count. I agree there is more talent in the league overall today, but tons of **** teams as well in the last 10 years. The East from 2010 onward was an absolute joke. The leastern conference for a reason.

There are bad teams today, for sure, but there were also a ton of bad teams in any era.

I'm saying that old heads are acting like the 1980s and 1990s was a better era, it wasn't.

Yeah, more talent than ever today for sure.

[Repeat 3-peat]

The myth comes from disgruntled former NBA players who are jealous of modern NBA players and feel the need to put them down to glorify themselves and their era.

I mean look at a guy like Gilbert Arenas who was a nice scorer in his short-lived 3 year prime, but was a career loser, horrible teammate and bad leader who was selfish, awful defensively, never made it past the 1st round and ruined his franchise for years based on his shenanigans. Now he has a podcast on YouTube and acts like he was Kobe level and makes horrible hot takes about current NBA players on a constant basis. He has a big fan base who believe his myths and revisionist history.

Fans also tend to analyze the 1990s NBA by only looking at the top players and top player highlights while ignoring that most of the teams were pretty bad. Yeah the Bulls, the Suns, the Jazz, the Spurs, the Sonics, the Rockets etc. were great teams, but there were so many bad teams with players that wouldn't make the NBA today.

The good thing is guys like LBJ, Steph, Durant etc. realize this and have said they won't trash the current NBA players like their predecessors...that should be good going forward.

We have had a ton of bad teams this past decade too. The Sixers during the process were setting records for low win count. I agree there is more talent in the league overall today, but tons of **** teams as well in the last 10 years. The East from 2010 onward was an absolute joke. The leastern conference for a reason.

There are bad teams today, for sure, but there were also a ton of bad teams in any era.

I'm saying that old heads are acting like the 1980s and 1990s was a better era, it wasn't.

I believe when they say those decades were "better era(s)", they may mean in terms of rivalries and the superstars of that time, and that is a legit argument. The overall talent is better today, that goes for every sport.

[Invictus88]

Propping up MJs legacy requires a lot a revisionism.

Yeah. Stuff like:

"He went to the nba finals 6 times"
"He won a championship 6 times"
"He made the all-star team 14 times. Every season he was in the league except for the comeback season where he came back after the all-star break".
"He won 5 MVPs"
"He won DPOY once, in top 10 in voting 10x"
"He was on the all-nba team 10 times (1st team 9x)"
"He averaged 30.1 pts, 4.7rb, 5.3 ast on 50% fg shooting for his career"

Lots of revisionist history is required to prop up his legacy....

[bledredwine]

NSFW

Watch on YouTube

Damn I miss it.

Now it’s cat and mouse. Can I catch up him can I catch him can I catch him can I stay with him can I do it without fouling

[Ainosterhaspie]

NSFW

Watch on YouTube

Damn I miss it.

Now it’s cat and mouse. Can I catch up him can I catch him can I catch him can I stay with him can I do it without fouling

You just told on yourself.

[bledredwine]

Now,

I'd like to show what actual hand checking is since so many (younger?) fans don't seem to know.
2:25. Watch the resistance. Then you'll understand.

Watch on YouTube

Like it or not, Lebron's never faced that, scranton.

Funny thing is I searched a random game thinking "What's fair? Okay, Heat weren't that great, I'll find a Heat game"

Almost immediately, you see defense like you'll never see today.

[bledredwine]

NSFW

Watch on YouTube

Damn I miss it.

Now it’s cat and mouse. Can I catch up him can I catch him can I catch him can I stay with him can I do it without fouling

You just told on yourself.

You really don't know what you're talking about here.

It's impossible to defend now and there's really no legit defense allowed. That's not telling on myself.
If they could actually hand check, not the fake feather hand check that you guys believe is real hand checking,
and if there was no 3 second violation, then yes, the game would take time to adjust, but it would be completely different.

There's no reason for those rules to exist other than to open the game to scoring. See my above post with video. It's all about resistance and guiding the offender where you want to, now you practically can't touch them... all as Hubie said.

[Lalouie]

Obviously you had the Bad Boys Pistons in the late 80s who were infamous for hard fouls. The league changed the flagrant foul rules in 90-91 to remedy this.

When you watch 90s games in full, it isn't any more physical than what you see today. Especially when looking at the playoffs. Modern playoff games have so much contact in them.

A more physical era than the 90a was clearly the 2000s. The 2004 Pistons teams were so physical that the NBA had to implement rule changes to fix it. They manhandled their opponents. Shouldn't the 2000s be known as the physical era given that it was WAY more physical than the 90s?

Where did this myth of physical 90s basketball come from? Watching the games, it's just completely false. I was actually shocked at how little contact there was when watching those games. Is this just BS perpetuated by dumb/salty ex-players, then parroted by their nostalgic fans who hate anything new?

it is as real as the nose on your face
not myth, like "lebron is a pass first player"

[Sedale Threatt]

Oh hey, here are highlights of LeBron putting 43 on the vaunted Pistons in Nov. 2004, the height of the dead ball era, in his 90th NBA game at 19 years old, at which point Jordan was still a freshman at North Carolina.

Watch on YouTube

[Tim_Hardawayy]

The poor ratings due to low-scoring games, combined with MJ retiring made the NBA think they needed more offense so they began allowing offensive players to carry the ball which opened things up quite a bit. Then they began looking the other way and allowed moving screens which gave more one on one opportunities when bigs switched onto scorers and gave shooters separation they needed to get shots off. It's gone way too far and now the league is an unwatchable joke with zero defense and an explosion of offensive numbers based off that more than any increase in skill.

This, this right here is a perfect explanation. The moving screens, but ESPECIALLY carrying. Its ridiculous watching games from the 90's, to the mid 00's, to now, how dramatically the shift has been.

In the 90's, you could at best casually move your hand around the ball very quickly. If the refs caught it, they'd whistle it, Allen Iverson still got called for traveling some. Then when MJ retired, the league realized kids loved Iverson and the And-1 style, and unofficially legalized carrying the ball. But you still had to at least do it 3/4 of the way, look like you're making an attempt at a legal dribble, or rather an attempt to get away with your carry.

Then at some point in the 10's, I don't know when exactly, the refs just said "f it" and now you can basically put your entire palm under the ball for nearly a second and not get called. Now nobody needs a point guard or a guy with good handles anymore, because every player is allowed to cheat to handle the ball.

I'm not a homer about it either, Miami's two stars benefit greatly from this. In the 90's, Tyler Herro would be more of a spot-up guy with an occasional dribble drive game, in today's game he is a combo guard that acts as the point guard half the time because he is allowed to carry the ball. Bam Adebayo is a point forward, but he's another one where if he was required to use a legal dribble, you could remove that point from him mostly, he'd still be an OK passer but no way is he dribbling the ball around like he does now.

That said, kids love carrying the ball, its extremely popular because it allows everyone, even people with poor handles, to be ball handlers, and it equalizes the playing field for people with small hands, so I don't think the NBA will ever have the guts to change the rule back. But yeah, the biggest difference from the 90's to today is every possession is full of carrying, and not having to legally dribble the basketball is a MASSIVE advantage for offense.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Also I'm not making a qualitative judgment on era when I say that about carrying, if you prefer that style that's your prerogative and I won't say otherwise. It can't really be argued though, players didn't magically become better ball handlers in 20 years, they were just allowed to handle it in ways that would be whistled 20 years ago.

The reason modern offenses have 4 to 5 guys who can dribble it isn't just because teams focus on guys with a handle more, or train for it more, its mostly because they're all allowed to carry the ball, and if they called it like they did in the 90's we'd be back to only point guards, talented 2's/3's and insanely talented 4's/5's having ball handling skills.

Also I'll acknowledge even the 90's had some leeway, and its a sliding scale, so it depends how strict you want them to call it. I personally think the 90's had the right balance, while right now its just way too far in the other direction, the modern NBA is almost indistinguishable from early 00's And-1 mixtapes in terms of ball handling sometimes.

The funniest thing to me is when they'll have that really tight whistle on guys who move their pivot foot a half second before starting their dribble, but they'll allow all these ridiculous carry moves as long as the guy is actively dribbling.

EDIT: Video example, getting called for carrying in the modern NBA requires it to be blatant and ridiculous looking

Watch on YouTube

If Poole hadn't moved the ball entirely across his body he'd have gotten away with it. Its to the point carrying has almost no meaning, and I'll bet that example by Poole becomes legal in the next 10 years if the rules continue as they are.

Another example, KD gets called for it here but he does it like 6 times on the possession before the ref blows the whistle, its so inconsistently called the league decided to just stop calling it (clip is from at least 10 years ago, KD is on OKC)

Watch on YouTube

Top comment is accurate, if they called this in today's NBA games would be at least 5 hours long. The league legalized carrying, and as a consequence nobody has to learn how to dribble, every player becomes a dribble drive threat, and it becomes exponentially harder to play defense.

[bledredwine]

Oh hey, here are highlights of LeBron putting 43 on the vaunted Pistons in Nov. 2004, the height of the dead ball era, in his 90th NBA game at 19 years old, at which point Jordan was still a freshman at North Carolina.

Watch on YouTube

The lane is almost wide open. See my below post, from GOAT thread.

Defensive resistance isn't even close

I literally just chose two random 40 point games from Lebron and Jordan, decided on picking Golden State for Lebron and a weaker EC playoff teams for Jordan to be even more fair. These are the first two I found.

You tell me who had the easier buckets and who faced tougher defense. Lebron's open almost all the damned time.
1:44, Lebron waits for the 3 sec, by the time the big can get to him he has to fly sideways just to contest. So ridiculous.
Look at 2:15-2:30 to get an idea for MJ... or the whole video even.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Crazy how different the game is. Free layups and free open 3s. Bro, imagine Jordan with all of that space, would be stupid. 1:44, the whole video really.

Then imagine Lebron having come into the league at 1984, the 3 point line's inception being 1980, he doesn't use 3's, trying to face this

Watch on YouTube

No chance Lebron would be anywhere near as effective, wouldn't even have players to pass to on the perimeter either. His efficiency would go down the toilet. Jordan was a per-century outlier whereas Lebron is a generational outlier. That's the difference.

After this 61 point embarrassment, Chuck Daly created the Jordan rules so that he "wouldn't embarrass them"
Imagine Lebron trying to get to the rim in each of these scenarios.

Watch on YouTube

By the way, Jordan did this without putting up one three.

You actually had to have your back to the basket back often because you couldn't just face up and easily score like you can today.

It's also funny how modern fans talk about the increase of talent, not realizing there's a give and take. Back then, you almost certainly had to be good at defense to be drafted and a poor defender was good by today's standards. Now, so many players suck and are drafted. But no one mentions this. Hmmmm.

[bledredwine]

Hell, just look at the paint. It's wide open sometimes even in the finals.
But even in 2011, the defense was way the hell better before the 3 point boom.

But 3 sec. no hand checking changed everything, including 00's defenses.

Watch on YouTube

[KGtabake]

The games between the Bulls and the Knicks.
Not every game was like that.
Secondly the games between the Knicks and the Heat from the moment Pat Riley went on the Heat.
Basically in the entire decade every series that involved the Knicks had something lol

[Yoshun]

Play is more physical in the paint. Everyone admits that much. The game was played more in the paint in the 90's.

There was no resticted area in most of the 90's. The rule was instituted to " address concerns about excessive collisions under the basket and make the block/charge call less ambiguous for referees". There was no insistance on verticiality. You didn't get an call just because the ballandler bumped someone beside the basket. You could touch other players and handcheck and steer them for all of the 90's.

Conclusion? It wasn't more physical, just because.

Briliance.

I posted something somewhat similar earlier in the thread, though you took a slightly different angle (one that I also agree with).

This is one of those discussions where people don't seem to care about logical takes. A majority of people just seem to like to argue about this. Maybe because they think accepting this fact means something else entirely? I don't know.