Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from?

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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#101 » by Ainosterhaspie » Thu Feb 27, 2025 10:52 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:And I agree with all of that. There is a view amongst modern-leaning fans that the game has been figured out and is now being played "correctly" and that everyone was doing it wrong for the first 60+ years of the NBA, and I really, really dislike that way of thinking. It leads to a POV where the past isn't respected or given its due.


The three point line fundamentally changed the game. Strategies prior to the introduction of the three were relatively mature and solidly effective. Once the three was implemented, it took 20+ years for the NBA to shed thinking that used to be correct and to adapt to the new paradigm.

The process of understanding the value of the three, developing strategies to leverage that advantage and training players to develop the new necessary skills took time. This process was unnecessarily slowed by adherence to obsolete thinking.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#102 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Thu Feb 27, 2025 11:10 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:And I agree with all of that. There is a view amongst modern-leaning fans that the game has been figured out and is now being played "correctly" and that everyone was doing it wrong for the first 60+ years of the NBA, and I really, really dislike that way of thinking. It leads to a POV where the past isn't respected or given its due.


The three point line fundamentally changed the game. Strategies prior to the introduction of the three were relatively mature and solidly effective. Once the three was implemented, it took 20+ years for the NBA to shed thinking that used to be correct and to adapt to the new paradigm.

The process of understanding the value of the three, developing strategies to leverage that advantage and training players to develop the new necessary skills took time. This process was unnecessarily slowed by adherence to obsolete thinking.


I just fundamentally reject the notion of "correct" and "incorrect" when comparing eras, because it's all done with hindsight knowledge, and it's using that hindsight knowledge to criticize an entire era's worth of players and coaches.

Agree to disagree.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#103 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Feb 28, 2025 2:20 am

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:And I agree with all of that. There is a view amongst modern-leaning fans that the game has been figured out and is now being played "correctly" and that everyone was doing it wrong for the first 60+ years of the NBA, and I really, really dislike that way of thinking. It leads to a POV where the past isn't respected or given its due.


The three point line fundamentally changed the game. Strategies prior to the introduction of the three were relatively mature and solidly effective. Once the three was implemented, it took 20+ years for the NBA to shed thinking that used to be correct and to adapt to the new paradigm.

The process of understanding the value of the three, developing strategies to leverage that advantage and training players to develop the new necessary skills took time. This process was unnecessarily slowed by adherence to obsolete thinking.


I just fundamentally reject the notion of "correct" and "incorrect" when comparing eras, because it's all done with hindsight knowledge, and it's using that hindsight knowledge to criticize an entire era's worth of players and coaches.

Agree to disagree.


Semantics. Put whatever word or label on it that you want. But like the notion that computer technology will inevitably continue to get smaller, faster and cheaper (Moore's Law), basketball strategy -- sports strategy in general -- will continue to change and evolve. Somebody figures out a new way to do something, or a league changes rules, everybody adjusts, and then they come up with changes to counter those changes.

I wouldn't argue that every single change in strategy or tactics in every single sport have been an improvement. But it would be fairly hard to argue that most haven't.

Take football: Coaches would get fired even 20 years ago for taking some of the gambles they do on fourth down now without blinking. (Many of which aren't really even gambles at all.) Why? Much like 3-pointers in basketball, statistical analysis proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that coaches were grossly underutilizing a tool that could help them win games.

Does that mean coaches like Bill Walsh or Vince Lombardi or Paul Brown still weren't geniuses? Of course not. Indeed, they all revolutionized football in their own ways. They just had a particular blind spot that needed a fresh set of eyeballs to correct.

Hell, I was just watching a documentary on John Madden a couple of months ago, in which he recounted some clinic he attended as a younger coach where Lombardi -- his idol -- was giving some presentation involving a particular blocking technique. And Madden, despite being a relative nobody at that time, sheepishly stood up and said, no coach, that's outdated, this is how it should be done. Instead of lighting him up, Lombardi thought about it and said yeah, you're right.

Whatever word you want to put on that, that's how it's supposed to work.

EDIT: And I want to add, not all changes are a case of throwing conventional wisdom completely out the window. The pick-and-roll is a great example. I think somebody came up with that in the 1920s, then it fell out of popularity for a long time. And now 100 years later it's one of, if not the, most common plays in the NBA. A basic-ass set created years before the advent of television. But if it ain't broke...
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#104 » by ScrantonBulls » Fri Feb 28, 2025 5:43 am

bledredwine wrote:
52-12-7 wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
What is it like knowing so little about basketball that you have nothing to say in reply to your original question and instead decide on shifting the topic to the poster himself instead?

What a joke you are.

And if you read the above replies, you'll start to know that your topics are seen that way as well.


You are living rent free in his brain.


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Hilarious- he put me in his signature and literally no one cared. I got so much satisfaction out of those laughs

I’ve never seen someone try so hard who is completely harmless. It also confirms the neuroscience that if you ignore someone, they don’t get the dopamine hit they anticipate and it drives them completely bonkers.

It’s been really fun, if I’m being completely honest.

Imagine your whole forum persona revolving around how great MJ and 80s/90s NBA was, and then being so wrong about those subjects on a frequent basis.

It's hilarious for a so-called MJ and 80s/90s NBA fanatic to get all those things so completely wrong like you did in my signature. It's blatantly obvious to anybody that reads that or gets into a conversation with you that you did not in fact watch any NBA from that era. The funniest part is you take pride in how often you are wrong.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#105 » by Mephariel » Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:06 am

Big J wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
Big J wrote:Because the 90s didn’t have the Trae Young, Brunson type flopping that we see in today game.


you think players weren't flopping in the 90s? lol


No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.


I grew up watching basketball in the 90s. Rodman flopped plenty of times.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#106 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:16 am

realball wrote:Teams played two big men at a time. Two players who were expected to block shots, defend the paint/post, set screens, score near the rim. Nowadays, teams usually have one of those players on the court at most. Back then, teams would have big men acting as enforcers, goons who would just be out there for their six fouls.

The game is more geared towards jump shots now, of course it has become less physical. Not complaining here, just stating facts.


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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#107 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:18 am

Mephariel wrote:
Big J wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
you think players weren't flopping in the 90s? lol


No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.


I grew up watching basketball in the 90s. Rodman flopped plenty of times.


Like sure, defensively? But he was a tough defender in a league which required good and tough post defence. It was a tool in his bag though sure.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#108 » by RoundMoundOfReb » Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:41 am

1. Nostalgia -- definitely the biggest reason
2. Style of play -- a game with more post-ups is just going to seem more physical than a game with a bunch of high PnR. aesthetically, the game appeared more crowded, a lot of bodies hovering around the basket.
3. Occasionally fouls were harder (ie some would be flagrant today)
4. Selective memory -- we tend to remember games between good/playoff teams that are inherently better on defense or heated rivalry matchups more than wizards/hornets matchups. If you only looked at today's playoff games, the game would seem more physical.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#109 » by Bergmaniac » Fri Feb 28, 2025 11:41 am

bledredwine wrote:That Pistons team was excellent considering and it had nothing to do with them and everything to do with the rules. Come on. It is what it is. You can’t even compare that to the 80s Pistons.

That's true, but not the way you think. The 2004 were clearly the better defensive teams. And the rules in 2004 were more favourable to the defence than the ones in the late 80s, there is a reason this was the lowest scoring season since the merger (except the lockout shortened 1998/99 in which players were way out of shape for large portions of it).
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#110 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Feb 28, 2025 12:09 pm

Mephariel wrote:
Big J wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
you think players weren't flopping in the 90s? lol


No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.


I grew up watching basketball in the 90s. Rodman flopped plenty of times.


Don't forget Karl Malone!
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#111 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:19 pm

Karl might have been the pioneer of offensive flopping. Tim Hardaway might have done the same with verbal flopping, yelling every time he drove to dupe officials.

And then you had Laimbeer, who taught Rodman all of the dark arts.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#112 » by queridiculo » Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:20 pm

All for a debate and it might even be an interesting topic, but when incendiary claims are mad I'd like to see some actual data rather than anecdotes of games the OP has watched.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#113 » by Kingdibs19 » Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:23 pm

Ritzo wrote:It all started in 2016. The debate between the 73-9 GSW vs 72-10 Bulls. Then LeBron and the Cavs beat them in the Finals and started the GOAT debate between MJ vs LeBron. The MJ fanatics and old heads starting to downplay the current era by saying it wasn't as physical as the 90's. Then they started uploading a compilations of hard fouls from the Bad Boy Pistons, bringing up the overrated handchecking narrative, while also making compilations of flopping from the current era. They're just afraid of someone that threatens MJ's legacy.


And after the Cleveland chip, Jordan and his team pushed out the propaganda machine they held all these years for a moment like this in the Last Dance. Truly sad. Imagine thinking the players from 30 years ago are better than now.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#114 » by MavsDirk41 » Fri Feb 28, 2025 1:26 pm

Kingdibs19 wrote:
Ritzo wrote:It all started in 2016. The debate between the 73-9 GSW vs 72-10 Bulls. Then LeBron and the Cavs beat them in the Finals and started the GOAT debate between MJ vs LeBron. The MJ fanatics and old heads starting to downplay the current era by saying it wasn't as physical as the 90's. Then they started uploading a compilations of hard fouls from the Bad Boy Pistons, bringing up the overrated handchecking narrative, while also making compilations of flopping from the current era. They're just afraid of someone that threatens MJ's legacy.


And after the Cleveland chip, Jordan and his team pushed out the propaganda machine they held all these years for a moment like this in the Last Dance. Truly sad. Imagine thinking the players from 30 years ago are better than now.



Klutch? Maybe more than Jordan had a marketing team?
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#115 » by Kingdibs19 » Fri Feb 28, 2025 2:29 pm

MavsDirk41 wrote:
Kingdibs19 wrote:
Ritzo wrote:It all started in 2016. The debate between the 73-9 GSW vs 72-10 Bulls. Then LeBron and the Cavs beat them in the Finals and started the GOAT debate between MJ vs LeBron. The MJ fanatics and old heads starting to downplay the current era by saying it wasn't as physical as the 90's. Then they started uploading a compilations of hard fouls from the Bad Boy Pistons, bringing up the overrated handchecking narrative, while also making compilations of flopping from the current era. They're just afraid of someone that threatens MJ's legacy.


And after the Cleveland chip, Jordan and his team pushed out the propaganda machine they held all these years for a moment like this in the Last Dance. Truly sad. Imagine thinking the players from 30 years ago are better than now.



Klutch? Maybe more than Jordan had a marketing team?


Can’t wait for the Luka chapter of the Lebron movie :lol:
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#116 » by Big J » Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:31 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Mephariel wrote:
Big J wrote:
No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.


I grew up watching basketball in the 90s. Rodman flopped plenty of times.


Don't forget Karl Malone!


Malone & Rodman might have flopped a bit, but they were also 2 of the most intimidating guys in the league. Malone threw multiple bows to guys faces that resulted in injuries, and Dennis was fighting guys and kicking cameramen in the nuts. Guys today would be shaking in their boots having to face them.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#117 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:33 pm

Big J wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Mephariel wrote:
I grew up watching basketball in the 90s. Rodman flopped plenty of times.


Don't forget Karl Malone!


Malone & Rodman might have flopped a bit, but they were also 2 of the most intimidating guys in the league. Malone threw multiple bows to guys faces that resulted in injuries, and Dennis was fighting guys and kicking cameramen in the nuts. Guys today would be shaking in their boots having to face them.


Not relevant at all to this. But I don't think Rodman kicking a cameraman would instill fear in anyone. Not to mention rodman offensively by then was too bad to even get on the court today.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#118 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Mar 26, 2025 2:05 pm

ScrantonBulls wrote:Obviously you had the Bad Boys Pistons in the late 80s who were infamous for hard fouls. The league changed the flagrant foul rules in 90-91 to remedy this.

When you watch 90s games in full, it isn't any more physical than what you see today.

Shouldn't the 2000s be known as the physical era given that it was WAY more physical than the 90s?

Where did this myth of physical 90s basketball come from?



Unofficially, the Bad Boy Pistons of the late 80s are seen as the architects of the more physical style of defense to slow down high scoring 80s offenses.
The NY Knicks of the early 90s (under Pat Riley) similarly garnered a reputation for excessive physicality.
Then the Miami Heat of the late 90s (under Pat Riley) adopted the same style of play.
In the Eastern Conference, this era was filled with enforcers who lacked offensive skills but were integral parts of the defensive schemes because of there willingness to give hard fouls and protect their own stars.

Guys like
  • Rick Mahorn
  • Bill Laimbeer
  • Charles Oakley
  • Anthony Mason
  • PJ Brown
  • Dale Davis
  • Larry Johnson
really made names for themselves during this time frame.



But officially, the League Office came out and publicly stated that the game was becoming unwatchable. That defensive players had so much of an advantage over offensive players, it was interrupting the flow and movement of the game.

This was more evident by a full decade of scoring decreases. It came to a head in the '94 Finals where two top-5 defenses met for the title and Houston win in 7 games...by averaging 86 ppg.

Things got so bad, the league resorted to multiple rule changes over multiple years to counter it.



Rod Thorn, director of NBA operations, was a key figure in devising and implementing the new rules.

“We looked at the games and saw that the physical contact had gone to the outer extremes,” Thorn said. “I’m not talking about the fights, but all the grabbing, holding and shoving was making it almost impossible to move from place to place on the basketball court.”

League officials are aware that scoring in regular season games dropped 17 points between 1986 and [1993-1994]. Defense became the best route to the Finals, if not the championship.

LA Times -- 1994
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#119 » by Ice Man » Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:28 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:League officials are aware that scoring in regular season games dropped 17 points between 1986 and [1993-1994]. Defense became the best route to the Finals, if not the championship.


I know those weren't your words, as you are quoting another source, but I dispute that statement -

1) The '91 Bulls were the best offensive team in the NBA, but #7 in defense.
2) The '92 Bulls were again 1st in offense, #4 in defense.
3) In '93, the Suns were 1st in offense and the champion Bulls #2. Neither were Top 5 in defense.
4) In '94, it's true, the Knicks & Rockers were the two best defense teams and only meh on offense.

So three years of our those four, offense won the title. Defense very much did in the fourth.

Also -

5) The league's scoring average per possession in '94 was roughly the same as from the 2010 - 2015 seasons.

Basically, the grabbing and clutching scored the game by slowing it down, but it didn't make for more effective defense per possession. The result instead was an uglier, slower product, without actually having the benefit of better defense.
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Re: Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from? 

Post#120 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:53 pm

Ice Man wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:League officials are aware that scoring in regular season games dropped 17 points between 1986 and [1993-1994]. Defense became the best route to the Finals, if not the championship.


I know those weren't your words, as you are quoting another source, but I dispute that statement -

Basically, the grabbing and clutching scored the game by slowing it down, but it didn't make for more effective defense per possession. The result instead was an uglier, slower product, without actually having the benefit of better defense.



Serious question asked with no snark or sarcasm:

Are you using per game statistics, which is what most observers at the time referred to?

...or Offensive Rating, a metric that literally didn't exist at the time?

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