2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part IV

[Ghost of Kleine]

I've been a known "hater" of Isaacs for a while but at the core, I just think he was an overrated prospect and now that he's 27, that hype is surely dead now and what he is will be more or less what he will be the rest of his career. I think there's a decent chance Isaac's contract gets fully guaranteed because it seems he's beyond the injury woes he's dealt with for most of his career and those guarantees are based on him playing 52 games. Last season and this season, he's already played more than 52 games.

Also, in this reality, I'm assuming KD is gone this offseason. But look, if we can get some draft capital and/or a decent young player back to take on Isaac for Grayson...fine. But I'd probably prefer someone like Cole Anthony who's younger and there's a bit more certainty around his contract as he's essentially a $13m expiring next season.

I'm down with the Goga/Harris plus draft pick deal too

Curious as to why you have hate for Isaacs? Am I missing something he's done? Is he somehow a bad player or person that should illicit such hate? Or is it just a personal perspective towards him? I mean he's still considered an ELITE Adefeendr and would clearly address a multitude of defensive issues for us. But I guess IF the idea is for us to bottom out and rebuild, then he wouldn't make much sense.

I don't have hate for Isaacs. I just happen to fall into the perceived category because I've never liked his game or why people were so infatuated with him even with all the injuries. At this stage in his career, there's a decent chance he's playing so few minutes not because of the roster but because his body just can't handle 25-30mpg on a nightly basis anymore if he wants to be available more often.

And he's also never really developed an offensive game either.

I can understand that perspective man.

[lilfishi22]

To keep winning. The guy is still a top player in the league and can clearly still impact winning so I don't see why anyone needs to question whether he's in "retirement" mode yet. Wade, Kobe, Dirk getting their retirement tours were all well beyond their usefulness to their teams by that point. I think it's a ridiculous to suggest a guy averaging 27/6/4 on elite efficiency is somehow looking to wind down his career.

You're promoting the narrative that KD wouldn't choose to go play in Washington even at 37 years old because he'd prioritize the chance to "keep winning" even though he clearly hasn't been doing much of that here the last couple of years anyways. And then you say........"The guy is still a top player in the league and can clearly still impact winning so I don't see why anyone needs to question whether he's in "retirement" mode yet."


LOL! As if he somehow wouldn't still be a top player in the league that can impact winning even if going to Washington? he'll obviously still be elite wherever he chooses to go, so that narrative is faulty logic, man. Obviously, none of us are psychic or can predict how long KD might choose to try and play. But obviously he could just as easily chase personal goals, benchmarks, records, etc, in Washington or anywhere else to finish his career out however long he chooses to or can continue to play. Washington would in no way inhibit these possibilities.

But what we do know is that in the NBA, it's very unlikely that any player continues playing in their 40s, especially not 37-year-olds having to consistently play around 40+ minutes a night!. So saying something to the effect of "near the end of" their career being a speculative statement in correlation to what we do know about the average length of an NBA player's career should really not be as sensationalistic or triggering as it seems to be for you here man. And you use the term " retirement mode" as a negative reference, like it's somehow premature to envision him not playing much longer beyond the next 2-3 years as he gets closer to 40?


Again, exactly how many 40-year-old NBA players (aside from steroid using Lebron) are still playing in the NBA? How many 39-year-olds for that matter? None of us can read KDs' mind, or know with certainty what's most important to him, so it's obviously no more ridiculous for me to suggest that he might have differing priorities as he closes in on the twilight of his career at almost 37 years old, knowing that almost no NBA players IF ANY play into or past their 40s. So, regardless of putting up elite efficiency, and great production, is he under any circumstances guaranteed to continue playing at such a level the closer he gets to 40? What has history shown us in correlation to age, production, and overall efficiency decline?

You also make a comparison to Wade, Kobe, and Dirk! As if it's somehow universally translatable even though each player's individual contextual situations and circumstances are vastly different. You say that you think it's ridiculous to suggest a guy averaging 27/6/4 on elite efficiency is somehow looking to wind down his career. Yet you're speaking from a position of ignorance to the situation, same as anybody else (including me) who might just be speculating on his priorities at nearly 37 yrs old after all when you know it's not at all unreasonable or uncommon for a person's priorities to change as they age.

Does KD somehow not deserve the same courtesy man? Is it any more ridiculous for me to speculate and have an opinion on what KD might value than what you're also speculating from your perspective? How can you deem my suggestion to be any more ridiculous than your own when neither has vetted or confirmed information to KDs' intentions, and both are at best mere speculation at best. At least with my perspective, we have a historical record/ timeline for players' career lengths to reference in relation to the probability of such a premise.

Are you suggesting with where Washington is at right now, 10 wins for the season, multiple 16 game losing streaks, deep in a rebuild, is where KD wants to waste the last few years of being an elite player in the NBA? One 36-37 year old KD isn't going to take the Wizards to playoff success. He can't even do that in Phoenix with a far better team

Well. It's no surprise that currently they're tanking as many teams are for Cooper Flag! But looking at their team, they have around $62 million in expiring contracts to use in trade for vet players they could put around KD if he made it clear he'd be willing to go there. They also have a ton of picks to attach in trades, and a great young core loaded with young talent, and they're in a weaker eastern conference too, so it's not at all a legitimate impossibility for them to be able to pivot rather quickly if KD had interest in going there.

But again, what I am suggesting is that with most anyone, as you get older and start nearing the last few years of your career or even the age of 40 in general, it's not at all uncommon for priorities to change. And family and those close to you can become a much more prominent consideration to someone's legacy! I'm also suggesting that KD has already well cemented his historical legacy as very elite, HOF level, multi-time NBA champion, TOP 5 greatest ALL time offensive talent in NBA history, and historically top 10 ALL TIME already too. Now wee all know how cerebral and intellectual KD is, but hre's also fairly easygoing and laid back too.

So maybe just maybe he's reached a point we can't fully understand wherein he recognizes his elite accomplishments and doesn't feel it necessary to prove much more. And as a result, his perspective on his professional priorities towards his last remaining years may have shifted from what they were so early on in his career. Again, with family friends and home environment becoming more prominent than what they might have been before.

Yes there are several teams, far away from any sort of post season appearance, that is tanking for Flagg, Wizards is no exception. And what makes you think the Wizards, of all teams, would be able to put together a competitive all of a sudden? What about their team history suggests to you that they can build a competitive team from scratch in a matter of a season or two?

If KD wants to the worst team in the NBA, sure we can accommodate. But you and Melo are outta your mind if you guys think KD would genuinely entertain going to Washington. Not Dallas where he could play with Kyrie again, not San Antonio where he could potentially play under Pops, not Houston who could be one KD away from being a real menace in the playoffs, all of which are Texan teams where he went to college. There's probably two dozen teams with a stronger case for KD to play there than Washington

And you're right, maybe he doesn't feel he needs to prove to anyone that he's a winner....but he could still go to a team that could win. It makes so little logical sense he would go to Washington, I read it as absolutely nonsense.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Are you suggesting with where Washington is at right now, 10 wins for the season, multiple 16 game losing streaks, deep in a rebuild, is where KD wants to waste the last few years of being an elite player in the NBA? One 36-37 year old KD isn't going to take the Wizards to playoff success. He can't even do that in Phoenix with a far better team

Well. It's no surprise that currently they're tanking as many teams are for Cooper Flag! But looking at their team, they have around $62 million in expiring contracts to use in trade for vet players they could put around KD if he made it clear he'd be willing to go there. They also have a ton of picks to attach in trades, and a great young core loaded with young talent, and they're in a weaker eastern conference too, so it's not at all a legitimate impossibility for them to be able to pivot rather quickly if KD had interest in going there.

But again, what I am suggesting is that with most anyone, as you get older and start nearing the last few years of your career or even the age of 40 in general, it's not at all uncommon for priorities to change. And family and those close to you can become a much more prominent consideration to someone's legacy! I'm also suggesting that KD has already well cemented his historical legacy as very elite, HOF level, multi-time NBA champion, TOP 5 greatest ALL time offensive talent in NBA history, and historically top 10 ALL TIME already too. Now wee all know how cerebral and intellectual KD is, but hre's also fairly easygoing and laid back too.

So maybe just maybe he's reached a point we can't fully understand wherein he recognizes his elite accomplishments and doesn't feel it necessary to prove much more. And as a result, his perspective on his professional priorities towards his last remaining years may have shifted from what they were so early on in his career. Again, with family friends and home environment becoming more prominent than what they might have been before.

Yes there are several teams, far away from any sort of post season appearance, that is tanking for Flagg, Wizards is no exception. And what makes you think the Wizards, of all teams, would be able to put together a competitive all of a sudden? What about their team history suggests to you that they can build a competitive team from scratch in a matter of a season or two?
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Well, for starters, they have new ownership that came in, has drafted well, they've also shown the ability to fill out their roster functionally with huge cumulative expiring contracts to utilize in trades, they have a ton of picks thy can attach or us in more trades for key pieces/vets. They've also managed to offload Beal and his no trade clause on us while also drifting us out of a bunch of assets when they really had no leverage. So clearly they're pretty competent and capable. And obviously if you have the assets, flexibility, and salaries to work with that they already have, you can pivot pretty quickly. Lastly, the past does not dictate the future. Just look at teams like OKC, Houston, Cleveland as perfect examples for how quickly a franchise can turn things around.

If KD wants to the worst tam in the NBA, sure we can accommodate. But you and Melo are outta your mind if you guys think KD would genuinely entertain going to Washington. Not Dallas where he could play with Kyrie again, not San Antonio where he could potentially play under Pops, not Houston who could be one KD away from being a real menace in the playoffs, all of which are Texan teams where he went to college. There's probably two dozen teams with a stronger case for KD to play there than Washington

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Really, the current status of the team is irrelevant if KD chooses to go there or anywhere for that matter because the choice is his to make. So of course we'll accommodate him. And you claiming Carmelo Anthony or myself are out of our minds for suggesting that KD could possibly consider going to Washington just because it is oppositional to your personal perspective and without acknowledging the validity of the points I've shared that could factor into/ influence such a decision indicates nothing beyond your unwillingness to look beyond yourself and your own limited scope of the situation to consider a different perspective.


This is sad as you're intentionally neglecting to acknowledge any human behavioral components in the contextual value of this premise despite players clearly having individual interests, changing priorities, and contrasting values at different stages of their careers, etc. Beal is a good recent example of family being a factor in decisions of destinations, environments, etc., with obviously many more. So having the opinion that you do doesn't in any way legitimize your perspective more than mine. Nor does it in any way delegitimize either opinion. At best it remains an unsubstantiated theoretical perspective from oppositional scalable ranges

And you're right, maybe he doesn't feel he needs to prove to anyone that he's a winner....but he could still go to a team that could win. It makes so little logical sense, he would go to Washington, I read it as absolutely nonsense.

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Sure he could, while you're neglecting the factor of significant pressures being put on him that at this stage he may be becoming tired of. And maybe just maybe he'd prefer to be in a less stressful environment without everyone blaming him for any struggles a highly competitive team with lofty goals might carry situationally. Remember what KD says most often man? ....." I just wanna hoop"!! He isn't out there saying "I want to destroy the opposition" or I want to win more championships"! KD has repeatedly said....." I just wanna hoop"!! which tracks pretty well with his laid-back passive-aggressive nature. And Maybe you don't understand or can't understand this perspective, but for true champions that have basically proven everything and established their elite dominance in their craft, it means much less to go to an already strong situation and piggyback to more success than it dors for their legacy by going to a struggling situation and being "the one" that resurrected that franchise where others couldn't! Look to what KD said recently postgame for evidence of this mentality man!

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Now you and some others might not fully understand the underlying premise of this statement, man, but others do. And just because it may not match your concept of logic, doesn't make it illogical by basis of your own inability to accept a broader range of perspectives that might be different than yours, but still offer contextual value even if you can't quantify it or subscribe to such possibilities. Ultimately, just positionally subjective views being shared.

[Frank Lee]

It's going to be really difficult to rebuild with mid to late picks staggered out over7 yrs. Without reacquiring our own, we will be a lottery team without any lotto selections, well into the 2030s, as all those meaningless swaps surely will comeback to haunt us. There is no harm in keeping Book for a while, as he will still have the same value this and next yr. If he wants to go through another retool, then hey, rock on. He may be more value come mid season when playoff hungry teams define their needs. Unless Houston comes knocking with a substantial offer, giving our picks back so we can tank proper, there is no use to take .50 on the dollar. This is just reeking of desperation..

But I guess that's where we are.
Those picks gain value every loss and every dysfunctional turn this franchise makes

It's that same desperation that will keep KDs return low. Can't claim his value was set during the Butler Bartering. That was a perfect storm of Miami being over a barrel, Both GState and Phnx in desperate need of an upgrade. Who gets to play the disgruntled Superstar demanding a trade now? Because that's what that transaction took. Is KD worth more than JimmyBuckets? Miami got a couple of decent players and a protected pick... that's it .like them, we have little to no leverage. There isn't but a small number of teams who could use/want KD and have the pieces. 50 mill is a chunky amount to get to. None of them are going to gut their stables to ride an old horse to the barn. Ive mentioned it before, The Slim Weeper is the ultimate Ponzi scheme. GState got in early and it really paid off. The Nets were able to reap very decent payback thanks to numbnutzMAt. But now, our KD ticket became a loser... and the next in line will see even less return, especially at the mythical wishful price tags being assigned here. Why y'all expect other teams to commit the same mistake we did is down right puzzling. Clearly its entertainment for some of you (may be therapy too)

Hard to see Wishbia and co 'winning' this transaction. And I fully expect him to use the KD assets to wheel and deal around Book.Do you think he's actually going to use a 2027-28+ draft pick ?

Fn mercenaries. Seems like it all started with Melo. to Denver.

Fun times.

[Frank Lee]

meanwhile, the Ghost of DeKline is counting flowers on the wall, and that don't bother him at all.....

[RaisingArizona]

What my nickname? I like the the GODK one

[Ghost of Kleine]

meanwhile, the Ghost of DeKline is counting flowers on the wall, and that don't bother him at all.....

Nice!
Only I don't play solitaire and don't watch captain Kangaroo man. And my time is actually more hectic and stressful at times than boring or at all lonely. But still a good song reference man.

[Saberestar]

Suns coach Mike Budenholzer on Bradley Beal being out tonight with left calf tightness.

Went for 24 points and a season-high 11 assists in 151-148 OT loss Tuesday at Memphis, playing a season-high 43 minutes.

"Came in yesterday, had a great day on the (trainer) table. Put a lot of time in and again this morning, put a lot of time in. He's not able to go. I don't think it was one incident. Just a physical game, the wear and tear of a game. His calf kind of had some tightness."

How in the **** world a player getting $50M per year and knowing that we will have a couple of must-win games at home has the nerve to say that he doesn't play because "his calf kind of had some tightness"?!?!

I have seen enough from this guy. Facts over cheap talking. He is SOFT and SELFISH, so many and many times the same **** on the Wizards and the Suns.

[BobbieL]

Suns coach Mike Budenholzer on Bradley Beal being out tonight with left calf tightness.

Went for 24 points and a season-high 11 assists in 151-148 OT loss Tuesday at Memphis, playing a season-high 43 minutes.

"Came in yesterday, had a great day on the (trainer) table. Put a lot of time in and again this morning, put a lot of time in. He's not able to go. I don't think it was one incident. Just a physical game, the wear and tear of a game. His calf kind of had some tightness."

How in the **** world a player getting $50M per year and knowing that we will have a couple of must-win games at home has the nerve to say that he doesn't play because"his calf kind of had some tightness"?!?!

I have seen enough from this guy. Facts over cheap talking. He is SOFT and SELFISH, so many and many times the same **** on the Wizards and the Suns.

Well enjoy him for the next two years....Beal shouldn't go anywhere unless its a straight contract for contract(s) deal and the contracts in question basically all expire in 2027

[Rebound Mound]

What an idealistic situation!!!
A cheap team that plays together, veterans do all the little things that are not counted on the stat sheet so the team gets a win, young players s are developed with love and playing time and everybody plays his perfect position...
In addition, we look forward to the draft so can even improve this roster to extends never seen before in the H of this league.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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I was intrigued by the thought of Bud after what he did to us in the finals. But it now seems like he's just another iteration of Monty Williams wherein his deficiencies and inflexibility to develop young talent are playing a key role in our struggles. Not solely to blame, but for sure a big contributory factor.

I'm also of the belief that just like Paul masked those inadequacies for Williams with his great play and on the court coaching, coach Bud was likely insulated by Giannis' great play bailing him.out often and making his issues we're now seeing firsthand. But maybe that's more common than we all suspect with many coaches being insulated by star player from their best players?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Gambo makes some really good points here!

[Rebound Mound]

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I was intrigued by the thought of Bud after what he did to us in the finals. But it now seems like he's just another iteration of Monty Williams wherein his deficiencies and inflexibility to develop young talent are playing a key role in our struggles. Not solely to blame, but for sure a big contributory factor.

I'm also of the belief that just like Paul masked those inadequacies for Williams with his great play and on the court coaching, coach Bud was likely insulated by Giannis' great play bailing him.out often and making his issues we're now seeing firsthand. But maybe that's more common than we all suspect with many coaches being insulated by star player from their best players?

This is probably what is going to happen and will happen.
But if you bring in new players, probably like 4/5/6 at least (I believe so) and a new coach, then you never know where the problem is...

I believe Vogel and BDH were brought in as players coaches who theoretically have a knack for being able to treat complicated personalities at the same time. I do not mean complicated as complicated, but considering the fact that you are mixing three billionaires who could not care less about some things, who just know how to play on offense when they have the ball and envision a shot by themselves and are not willing to commit on defense and on the small details.

Sincerely I would like us to trade Beal and get a good PG and a good PF or a role PF, as I believe Bol could have a much bigger role in a three leg forward rotation (KD, Bol and a third forward).

I would even like us not to trade Beal and that everything goes smooth as these last 2/3 games (not the one vs Pelicans), but I do think that is not a scenario which a good way out.

[garrick]

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I was intrigued by the thought of Bud after what he did to us in the finals. But it now seems like he's just another iteration of Monty Williams wherein his deficiencies and inflexibility to develop young talent are playing a key role in our struggles. Not solely to blame, but for sure a big contributory factor.

I'm also of the belief that just like Paul masked those inadequacies for Williams with his great play and on the court coaching, coach Bud was likely insulated by Giannis' great play bailing him.out often and making his issues we're now seeing firsthand. But maybe that's more common than we all suspect with many coaches being insulated by star player from their best players?

This is probably what is going to happen and will happen.
But if you bring in new players, probably like 4/5/6 at least (I believe so) and a new coach, then you never know where the problem is...

I believe Vogel and BDH were brought in as players coaches who theoretically have a knack for being able to treat complicated personalities at the same time. I do not mean complicated as complicated, but considering the fact that you are mixing three billionaires who could not care less about some things, who just know how to play on offense when they have the ball and envision a shot by themselves and are not willing to commit on defense and on the small details.

Sincerely I would like us to trade Beal and get a good PG and a good PF or a role PF, as I believe Bol could have a much bigger role in a three leg forward rotation (KD, Bol and a third forward).

I would even like us not to trade Beal and that everything goes smooth as these last 2/3 games (not the one vs Pelicans), but I do think that is not a scenario which a good way out.

After seeing the absolute clownshow of an organization fire their coach annually I don't think we get a quality coach here if we fire Bud so we may as well ride him out for another year or two and if we don't make major changes in the roster next season it won't matter who we have as coach.

[BobbieL]

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Gambo makes some really good points here!

Maybe the rest of the league will say the same thing about KD and Booker and not give good value. But Durant and Booker want to be the secondary players - they don't want to be the alpha player

Time to go. With the cap rules -- Booker has to go as well. Durant, O'Neale and Allen won't get you enough. Plus without draft picks - need those back.

[Slim Charless]

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I was intrigued by the thought of Bud after what he did to us in the finals. But it now seems like he's just another iteration of Monty Williams wherein his deficiencies and inflexibility to develop young talent are playing a key role in our struggles. Not solely to blame, but for sure a big contributory factor.

I'm also of the belief that just like Paul masked those inadequacies for Williams with his great play and on the court coaching, coach Bud was likely insulated by Giannis' great play bailing him.out often and making his issues we're now seeing firsthand. But maybe that's more common than we all suspect with many coaches being insulated by star player from their best players?

This is probably what is going to happen and will happen.
But if you bring in new players, probably like 4/5/6 at least (I believe so) and a new coach, then you never know where the problem is...

I believe Vogel and BDH were brought in as players coaches who theoretically have a knack for being able to treat complicated personalities at the same time. I do not mean complicated as complicated, but considering the fact that you are mixing three billionaires who could not care less about some things, who just know how to play on offense when they have the ball and envision a shot by themselves and are not willing to commit on defense and on the small details.

Sincerely I would like us to trade Beal and get a good PG and a good PF or a role PF, as I believe Bol could have a much bigger role in a three leg forward rotation (KD, Bol and a third forward).

I would even like us not to trade Beal and that everything goes smooth as these last 2/3 games (not the one vs Pelicans), but I do think that is not a scenario which a good way out.

After seeing the absolute clownshow of an organization fire their coach annually I don't think we get a quality coach here if we fire Bud so we may as well ride him out for another year or two and if we don't make major changes in the roster next season it won't matter who we have as coach.

Give Bud a chance with other players. I would not fire him.

[sunsbum]

3 finals coaches in 3 years. I mean what are we doing here? The coaching carousel by our front office is embarrassing. This organization at this point probably one of the worst run franchises in all of sports right now. Literally a clown show from top to bottom.

[handsome salary]

Suns are the talk of the league, media and fans.

[RaisingArizona]

Welcome to Phoenix, Thunder Dan Majerle

[BobbieL]

This is probably what is going to happen and will happen.
But if you bring in new players, probably like 4/5/6 at least (I believe so) and a new coach, then you never know where the problem is...

I believe Vogel and BDH were brought in as players coaches who theoretically have a knack for being able to treat complicated personalities at the same time. I do not mean complicated as complicated, but considering the fact that you are mixing three billionaires who could not care less about some things, who just know how to play on offense when they have the ball and envision a shot by themselves and are not willing to commit on defense and on the small details.

Sincerely I would like us to trade Beal and get a good PG and a good PF or a role PF, as I believe Bol could have a much bigger role in a three leg forward rotation (KD, Bol and a third forward).

I would even like us not to trade Beal and that everything goes smooth as these last 2/3 games (not the one vs Pelicans), but I do think that is not a scenario which a good way out.

After seeing the absolute clownshow of an organization fire their coach annually I don't think we get a quality coach here if we fire Bud so we may as well ride him out for another year or two and if we don't make major changes in the roster next season it won't matter who we have as coach.

Give Bud a chance with other players. I would not fire him.

If this is true from Haynes, and we know the source is Booker -- this is good news for the "trade Booker group" -- Booker will ask for a trade if Bud is back. I hope I am not reading too much into this and getting my hopes up

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