Mark Williams for Gradey Dick

[HornetJail]

There is no reason to punt Mark for this whatsoever

Even if his medicals are so bad that we don't think he'll be playing basketball in three years, I'd rather have Mark doing what he does

[wemby]

FVV:
They made a good decision in letting him walk, he's blocking development in Houston now.

That's laughable. If they wanted to move on from FVV then they should have traded him before and at least collect some assets, which they didn't. Bad asset management at least.

Siakam/OG:
The returns look great they got Agbaji, Walter, and Ingram as a result of the Siakam trade.

Disingenuous way to present the trade, Ingram was about a salary dump from the Pelicans because no one wanted to give him the contract he was asking for, Walter was picked at 19 and so far has shown nothing that would make me feel he's a better prospect than maybe a dozen and a half other players in his class. Agbaji wasn't directly traded for Siakam and, though he had a nice bounce back from a bad start of his career, he's nothing special. You'd think they'd have gotten a lot more had they traded Siakam a year before they did.

In terms of OG they got two high quality starters for a single starter. There's a sound argument that IQ has more all star potential than OG does too.

I think both RJ Barrett and Quickley are overpaid, below average starters. Quickley is downright a negative contract, he's paid more than Jalen Johnson and almost as much as Sengun, I think Raptors would have to pay significant assets to offload him if they wanted to do so right now. I'd much rather have OG than them.

Draft home runs:
They picked up several good role players and plugged them into their development pipeline. Shead, Mogbo, Battle, Walter, and Chomche all project as good rotation pieces. They'll have a strong bench soon as a result of this and be able to rest their starters for a playoff run.

Again, you mention a bunch of players, none of which seems particularly special, OK-ish - TBD range at the moment, I´d say.

Barnes:
He was the ROTY, he's not playing with any all stars or great defensive players. He carries the load on defense and he's being played to his weakness. The Raptors don't have a lot of spacing for him to work with. Who do you think is better than him and projects to be a core piece on a championship team?

Is Barnes clearly better than Franz Wagner, Alpern Sengun or Jalen Johnson? I think not. Who is the better of the bunch is debatable, but it's close enough that I´d argue those other guys are much better picks at their respective positions.
Is Barnes a lot more valuable than Jalen Suggs and Trey Murphy? Maybe somewhat, but not as much as you think (especially considering his contract). Barnes is a 2nd best player on a good team at best (IMO he's closer to third), who is playing a larger role than he should because his team has a lot less talent than you think.
Was Barnes a good pick? Sure. But Barnes at 4 isn't a better pick than Wagner at 8, Sengun at 16, Trey Murphy at 17 or Jalen Johnson at 20.

The Raptors front office is doing what they can with what they have. They're hitting on their 2nd round picks and picking up great defensive pieces to put together a culture, they understand free agency sucks for a non-American market and played the 'pre-free agency' game at the deadline.

If their moves are bad what could they realistically do better? Hind sight is 20/20 but moving forward what exactly should they be doing? They are tanking and gearing up for the following year. Should they do a multi year tank?

Honestly, you have a serious case of rose tinted glasses. Masai has done some good, some bad, and some ugly moves. He's definitely not the worst GM in the league, but overall he's much closer to mediocre than great.

[gswhoops]

I mean not to be a dick but if the Raptors have an incredible front office and all this talent, how come they've only made the playoffs once in the last five years (and lost in the first round)

[Thaddy]

I mean not to be a dick but if the Raptors have an incredible front office and all this talent, how come they've only made the playoffs once in the last five years (and lost in the first round)

Because it's a small market team. They gave their 2nd timeline during the championship the chance to show they are capable of being a contender. Hindsight is 20/20. The idea was they drafted a ROTY and they had an elite number 2 in Siakam, the best wing defender in the league, and an all star PG. The pieces just didn't fit together.

FVV:
They made a good decision in letting him walk, he's blocking development in Houston now.

That's laughable. If they wanted to move on from FVV then they should have traded him before and at least collect some assets, which they didn't. Bad asset management at least.

Siakam/OG:
The returns look great they got Agbaji, Walter, and Ingram as a result of the Siakam trade.

Disingenuous way to present the trade, Ingram was about a salary dump from the Pelicans because no one wanted to give him the contract he was asking for, Walter was picked at 19 and so far has shown nothing that would make me feel he's a better prospect than maybe a dozen and a half other players in his class. Agbaji wasn't directly traded for Siakam and, though he had a nice bounce back from a bad start of his career, he's nothing special. You'd think they'd have gotten a lot more had they traded Siakam a year before they did.

In terms of OG they got two high quality starters for a single starter. There's a sound argument that IQ has more all star potential than OG does too.

I think both RJ Barrett and Quickley are overpaid, below average starters. Quickley is downright a negative contract, he's paid more than Jalen Johnson and almost as much as Sengun, I think Raptors would have to pay significant assets to offload him if they wanted to do so right now. I'd much rather have OG than them.

Draft home runs:
They picked up several good role players and plugged them into their development pipeline. Shead, Mogbo, Battle, Walter, and Chomche all project as good rotation pieces. They'll have a strong bench soon as a result of this and be able to rest their starters for a playoff run.

Again, you mention a bunch of players, none of which seems particularly special, OK-ish - TBD range at the moment, I´d say.

Barnes:
He was the ROTY, he's not playing with any all stars or great defensive players. He carries the load on defense and he's being played to his weakness. The Raptors don't have a lot of spacing for him to work with. Who do you think is better than him and projects to be a core piece on a championship team?

Is Barnes clearly better than Franz Wagner, Alpern Sengun or Jalen Johnson? I think not. Who is the better of the bunch is debatable, but it's close enough that I´d argue those other guys are much better picks at their respective positions.
Is Barnes a lot more valuable than Jalen Suggs and Trey Murphy? Maybe somewhat, but not as much as you think (especially considering his contract). Barnes is a 2nd best player on a good team at best (IMO he's closer to third), who is playing a larger role than he should because his team has a lot less talent than you think.
Was Barnes a good pick? Sure. But Barnes at 4 isn't a better pick than Wagner at 8, Sengun at 16, Trey Murphy at 17 or Jalen Johnson at 20.

The Raptors front office is doing what they can with what they have. They're hitting on their 2nd round picks and picking up great defensive pieces to put together a culture, they understand free agency sucks for a non-American market and played the 'pre-free agency' game at the deadline.

If their moves are bad what could they realistically do better? Hind sight is 20/20 but moving forward what exactly should they be doing? They are tanking and gearing up for the following year. Should they do a multi year tank?

Honestly, you have a serious case of rose tinted glasses. Masai has done some good, some bad, and some ugly moves. He's definitely not the worst GM in the league, but overall he's much closer to mediocre than great.

Fred wasn't getting any good returns so they waited it out. Fred isn't a very good PG his defense is good but offensively he's a disaster. He's shooting under 40% has a terrible TS% and he's literally blocking the development of the top 5 picks HOU tanked multiply years for.

Disingenuous to talk about the assets that were obtained by the result of the big trades they made? Do you know what disingenuous even means? Walter was projected to be a top 5 pick and he's having a good rookie year as a rotation player that's being jerked in and out of the line up. Agbaji is shooting 50/40 and a known defensive rotation player, the Agbaji trade only happened because of the Siakam deal.

Barrett and IQ are non all stars that have shown more than they did in NY, RJ has especially shown he's a very capable offensive player since he's joined the Raptors and recently his defense has picked up. He went from a toxic to a neutral contract.

IQ is in the first year of his deal that has a flat AAV. He's barely played this season due to a bunch of random injuries and because the Raptors are tanking. How is he overpaid when he hasn't even been played? I would say you're being disingenuous now. IQ is one of the best above the break three point shooters in the league and has several faucets to his game which were hidden behind Randle and Brunson. Between IQ, OG, and RJ I would say there is a reasonable logic to state IQ has the highest chance of becoming an all star.

Yeah they are OK-ish because they were drafted in the 2nd round less than a year ago. Again pretty disingenuous of you.

Barnes has an all around game with elite defense already, and his offense is on the rise. Barnes is playing with minimal spacing. The Raptors are the one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA because they are rebuilding right now. By the same logic Bachero is worse than Sengun, Wagner, and several other prospects. There's a difference in being the number 1 option and playing next to a bunch of stars. Those players look better because they are on well built teams designed to win now, while the Raptors are tanking.

You have a serious case of being disingenuous. The Raptors are winning in the margins, they drafted a bunch of good 2nd round prospects that have already shown they're capable of being good rotation players. Shead and Mogbo are already core pieces of their bench and provide above average defense. They won several small trades where they bought good pieces for low value. This includes the Mitchell, Agbaji, and several other deals they've made. They will develop those pieces and eventually consolidate assets into good fitting win now pieces. For example, the Raptors have no stretch big. If you add a stretch big like Porzingis next to Barnes and pull out the opposing help defense Barnes scoring numbers would surge. That's pretty obvious, but in a rebuild year you want him to develop a mid range game, which he's done, and shoot more above the break 3s off the dribble.

[psman2]

I got Williams > Dick. Williams even with the injury concerns has a higher ceiling and plays the more needed position for the Hornets.

[Godaddycurse]

I got Williams > Dick. Williams even with the injury concerns has a higher ceiling and plays the more needed position for the Hornets.

Which begs the question why would they trade him away? the injury concerns must be real for a team with a big need for a young C building block to trade him. I personally would shy away from him (even though i agree with you wiliams is worth more in a vacuum/on the market)

[psman2]

I got Williams > Dick. Williams even with the injury concerns has a higher ceiling and plays the more needed position for the Hornets.

Which begs the question why would they trade him away? the injury concerns must be real for a team with a big need for a young C building block to trade him. I personally would shy away from him (even though i agree with you wiliams is worth more in a vacuum/on the market)

Because they got 125-135% of his value. Like I don't want to move but if someone offered me 25% over the value of my home that needs a new roof among other repairs then I just take it and figure out the future home later.

[Godaddycurse]

I got Williams > Dick. Williams even with the injury concerns has a higher ceiling and plays the more needed position for the Hornets.

Which begs the question why would they trade him away? the injury concerns must be real for a team with a big need for a young C building block to trade him. I personally would shy away from him (even though i agree with you wiliams is worth more in a vacuum/on the market)

Because they got 125-135% of his value. Like I don't want to move but if someone offered me 25% over the value of my home that needs a new roof among other repairs then I just take it and figure out the future home later.

the 125-135% of his value is still not worth it imo if you really believe there is a good chance of him reaching his ceiling and helping this team win in the near term. This team has been tanking for a while now and to take another step back raises a red flag to me, overpay or not

[yosemiteben]

I got Williams > Dick. Williams even with the injury concerns has a higher ceiling and plays the more needed position for the Hornets.

Which begs the question why would they trade him away?

Because we liked Knecht as a prospect and are rebuilding so we value draft capital, and an unprotected 1st pretty far in the future is generally regarded to be a premium draft asset.

We aren't motivated to move on from Mark for less than premium value.

[meekrab]

Gradey Dick has somehow become overrated while shooting under 35% on 3s which is his only NBA skill.

[luciano-davidwesley]

Gradey Dick has somehow become overrated while shooting under 35% on 3s which is his only NBA skill.

Yeah this thread is just funny. The Lakers got cold feet so now we have to give away Mark for the generic white shooter guy, who's only shooting 3's at 35% for his career FYI.

If we want a shooter so bad why not trade up into the late first this draft with #32 and #34 and draft Alex Karaban? Might not even need to trade up lol he might be available with #32.

But the idea the Lakers got cold feet and used a physical to get out of the trade so now we have to give Mark away is laughable.

[ejftw]

Didn't think Dick was 2 firsts and a swap better than Dalton

[JustBuzzin]

No thanks, happy to keep Mark.

Yeah I don't want no Dick on my team.

Mark actually has potential if he can get in the weight room and improve his strength.