RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[ScrantonBulls]

4-23 in the second Cavs stretch is insane especially when that team has to face up with those Warriors teams every year.

Why do fans not understand this? When Lebron is on a team, the he offense runs through him. There is no system. Of course a team will suck when you remove their method of creating offense.

And yes, he’s good. He’s a great floor raiser, not at all a great ceiling raiser. Why? Because you live and die by the lebron, and lebron’s never been as consistently great as Jordan.

I have stats on that if you don’t believe it. It’s ridiculous how few times Jordan had low efficiency, scored under a certain amount, etc. For Lebron, he simply has more weaknesses. That limits a team’s ceiling to the ceiling of that player.

And that’s as honest as this comparison gets.

That is one thing I have never understood in this debate, that in a team sport LeBron’s teams collapsing when he is not on court and Jordan’s teams still being functional without him on court apparently reflects well on LeBron snd badly on Jordan. This is a team sport, the raison d’être is for teams to win a given game and to try to win titles. Sure in a team sport one player no matter how good can’t win a title on his own as both Jordan and LeBron have demonstrated at various stages in their respective careers. But NBA basketball teams don’t exist for the purpose of allowing their leading player to generate gaudy individual statistics, and for those who say ringzz we all know as did LeBron that even he wouldn’t be in this conversation without winning multiple titles.

Not sure what is difficult to understand here. It's quite obvious. Jordan's supporting casts were so good that they were still a 50+ win team without him. LeBron's supporting casts were mediocre in comparison, and really struggled without him. He didn't have the clear best supporting cast in the league like MJ did during each of his championship years. Maybe you could argue he did during his first Heat championship, but that's it.

[michaelm]

Why do fans not understand this? When Lebron is on a team, the he offense runs through him. There is no system. Of course a team will suck when you remove their method of creating offense.

And yes, he’s good. He’s a great floor raiser, not at all a great ceiling raiser. Why? Because you live and die by the lebron, and lebron’s never been as consistently great as Jordan.

I have stats on that if you don’t believe it. It’s ridiculous how few times Jordan had low efficiency, scored under a certain amount, etc. For Lebron, he simply has more weaknesses. That limits a team’s ceiling to the ceiling of that player.

And that’s as honest as this comparison gets.

That is one thing I have never understood in this debate, that in a team sport LeBron’s teams collapsing when he is not on court and Jordan’s teams still being functional without him on court apparently reflects well on LeBron snd badly on Jordan. This is a team sport, the raison d’être is for teams to win a given game and to try to win titles. Sure in a team sport one player no matter how good can’t win a title on his own as both Jordan and LeBron have demonstrated at various stages in their respective careers. But NBA basketball teams don’t exist for the purpose of allowing their leading player to generate gaudy individual statistics, and for those who say ringzz we all know as did LeBron that even he wouldn’t be in this conversation without winning multiple titles.

Not sure what is difficult to understand here. It's quite obvious. Jordan's supporting casts were so good that they were still a 50+ win team without him. LeBron's supporting casts were mediocre in comparison, and really struggled without him. He didn't have the clear best supporting cast in the league like MJ did during each of his championship years. Maybe you could argue he did during his first Heat championship, but that's it.

You miss his point which is that the talent was not employed ideally with no system to fall back on when LeBron wasn’t on court. Most of LeBron’s post 2010 teams had talent but talent which didn’t necessarily fit well, which was at least partly on LeBron who had a significant influence on the composition of those teams imo.

It is actually not unfair for a player to have a good team built around him and to accept coaching from a good coach who has a good team game plan, but rather to his credit and to his team’s advantage if they want to win.

On the other hand while I have only watched the Lakers vs Denver game in which the LeBron/Luka combination looked dynamite I gather he is not dominating the ball at Luka’s expense with Luka on the team.

[MavsDirk41]

Imagine complaining that Jordan played with a superior supporting cast when James has played with 7 all nba teammates (Jordan played with two - Pippen and Rodman) and how many other all star players? No all time great has played with as much top end talent as James. Also, Jordan played with the Bulls for 13 seasons. They typically kept and built around their main core. If a player is switching teams every few years, and wanting certain players on his team, there is going to be less continuity. But anything to downgrade his teammates or build up Jordans teammates. You can tell who didnt watch the 90 Bulls.

[ScrantonBulls]

I like that mavsdirk refuses to quote me directly anymore, but he wants to address me so badly that he replies indirectly (no quoting) and without mentioning me, but he is so clearly replying to me It's alright brother. I know I worked you over in our last discussion - but you can reply directly to me. I'll go easy on your going forward. Just don't give me any layups like usual.

[MavsDirk41]

I like that mavsdirk refuses to quote me directly anymore, but he wants to address me so badly that he replies indirectly (no quoting) and without mentioning me, but he is so clearly replying to me It's alright brother. I know I worked you over in our last discussion - but you can reply directly to me. I'll go easy on your going forward. Just don't give me any layups like usual.

Taj you are kllling it as usual keep up the good work

[michaelm]

I like that mavsdirk refuses to quote me directly anymore, but he wants to address me so badly that he replies indirectly (no quoting) and without mentioning me, but he is so clearly replying to me It's alright brother. I know I worked you over in our last discussion - but you can reply directly to me. I'll go easy on your going forward. Just don't give me any layups like usual.

It is you who is arguing that in a team game Jordan’s success with the Bulls should be downgraded because he stayed at the same franchise, had a team with good fit built around him and played a team game with that team. There have been some out there contentions on both sides of the debate but this one repeatedly put forward by you is right up there imo. What did you want Jordan to do ?, employ clairvoyance to see that LeBron was going to switch teams 3 times and do the same to match him ?. We all know the reverse is the case, that LeBron set out to match Jordan. Everyone acknowledges LeBron had the bad luck to be drafted by a bad organisation, and indeed his path of multiple team changes may well have been the more difficult path, but he chose where he went, largely which elite players he teamed up with, and largely who he was coached by ffs.

[bledredwine]

Defensive resistance isn't even close

I literally just chose two random 40 point games from Lebron and Jordan, decided on picking Golden State for Lebron and a weaker EC playoff teams for Jordan to be even more fair. These are the first two I found.

You tell me who had the easier buckets and who faced tougher defense. Lebron's open almost all the damned time.
1:44, Lebron waits for the 3 sec, by the time the big can get to him he has to fly sideways just to contest. So ridiculous.
Look at 2:15-2:30 to get an idea for MJ... or the whole video even.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Crazy how different the game is. Free layups and free open 3s. Bro, imagine Jordan with all of that space, would be stupid. 1:44, the whole video really.

Then imagine Lebron having come into the league at 1984, the 3 point line's inception being 1980, he doesn't use 3's, trying to face this

Watch on YouTube

No chance Lebron would be anywhere near as effective, wouldn't even have players to pass to on the perimeter either. His efficiency would go down the toilet. Jordan was a per-century outlier whereas Lebron is a generational outlier. That's the difference.

After this 61 point embarrassment, Chuck Daly created the Jordan rules so that he "wouldn't embarrass them"
Imagine Lebron trying to get to the rim in each of these scenarios.

Watch on YouTube

By the way, Jordan did this without putting up one three.

You actually had to have your back to the basket back often because you couldn't just face up and easily score like you can today.

It's also funny how modern fans talk about the increase of talent, not realizing there's a give and take. Back then, you almost certainly had to be good at defense to be drafted and a poor defender was good by today's standards. Now, so many players suck and are drafted. But no one mentions this. Hmmmm.

[Jamaaliver]

Jordan with the Washington Wizards was a really weird sight to behold.

Read on Twitter

[Ainosterhaspie]

Consider this player.

25.9 PPG (highest season 30.3) on 36% from three, 54% from 2, 75% free throws.
7.3 Rebounds, 7.2 Assists, 1.4 steals, .67 blocks, 3.5 turnovers per game.

Winning record five regular seasons. Made playoffs four times. Conference finals once. Knocked prior year champs out of playoffs once. 2-3 playoffs series record, 11-16 playoff games record.

2x All NBA 2nd team, 4x all NBA 3RD team, 6x all star appearances. Rookie of the year. 3x top 10 MVP (top finish #6).

Those are LeBron's 7 worst seasons (04, 05 and 21-25). That's a hall of fame career. LeBron's 15 best seasons are neck and neck with Jordan, but LeBron has a literal hall of fame career stacked on top of that.

[bledredwine]

Consider this player.

25.9 PPG (highest season 30.3) on 36% from three, 54% from 2, 75% free throws.
7.3 Rebounds, 7.2 Assists, 1.4 steals, .67 blocks, 3.5 turnovers per game.

Winning record five regular seasons. Made playoffs four times. Conference finals once. Knocked prior year champs out of playoffs once. 2-3 playoffs series record, 11-16 playoff games record.

2x All NBA 2nd team, 4x all NBA 3RD team, 6x all star appearances. Rookie of the year. 3x top 10 MVP (top finish #6).

Those are LeBron's 7 worst seasons (04, 05 and 21-25). That's a hall of fame career. LeBron's 15 best seasons are neck and neck with Jordan, but LeBron has a literal hall of fame career stacked on top of that.

Once again, another post about longevity instead of level of play. Lebron still has less MVP’s, championships, finals MVP’s, has half as many trophies by the way, no defensive player of the year, 4 less first team defense and has played an entire career longer than Jordan.

Long story short- Jordan dominated in a way Lebron never has, and that’s why he’s considered the greatest of all time.

Consider this player-
Won a championship once out of every two years (give or take), won the scoring title nearly every year, defensive first team nearly every year after rookie/sophomore season, MVP 1/3 of the time because of voter fatigue (btw), dominates the record books, has 19 of the top 100 gamescores all time (used to measure how productive a game is), has 7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages on sky high efficiency singlehandedly…. only needed one other legit allstar behind him and did it with two supporting casts, putting in nearly twice the output of his second guy for half of the championships, set the record for most wins in a season at the time, winning the chip in dominant fashion (arguable best team ever), didn’t get embarrassed in the finals or participate in some of the worst finals slaughters of all time against his own team but instead in one of the biggest finals lashing’s of the other team in a game (Utah finals win by over forty, in the 90s),

had all of his rivals and contemporaries (Magic Bird etc) calling him GOAT as well as his modern competitor’s best contemporaries (Durant, Steph, Dirk, even Wade) calling him GOAT….

I could go on and on but you get the point. And it’s obviously not Lebron.

[Himothy Duncan]

Jordan literally couldn’t make it out of the first round until Scottie came. But he’s the best ever? LOL. Being able to win at least a little bit by yourself should be a minimum requirement to be called the best ever ffs.

[ScrantonBulls]

Jordan literally couldn’t make it out of the first round until Scottie came. But he’s the best ever? LOL. Being able to win at least a little bit by yourself should be a minimum requirement to be called the best ever ffs.

Bulls in 92-93: 57-25
Bulls in 93-94 after MJ quits: 55-27

Just lmao. Dude had some of the MOST stacked teams of all time when you consider the weak era. Imagine giving LeBron a team so strong that they win 55 games without him. Jordan won nothing without ridiculously stacked squads, and Pippen like you said.

Pippen won 55 games and nearly went to the ECF without MJ. What exactly did MJ do without Scottie?

[Himothy Duncan]

Jordan literally couldn’t make it out of the first round until Scottie came. But he’s the best ever? LOL. Being able to win at least a little bit by yourself should be a minimum requirement to be called the best ever ffs.

Bulls in 92-93: 57-25
Bulls in 93-94 after MJ quits: 55-27

Just lmao. Dude had some of the MOST stacked teams of all time when you consider the weak era. Imagine giving LeBron a team so strong that they win 55 games without him. Jordan won nothing without ridiculously stacked squads, and Pippen like you said.

Pippen won 55 games and nearly went to the ECF without MJ. What exactly did MJ do without Scottie?

Exactly. When he left the Cavs for Miami they had the second worst record in the league, when he left the Heat they finished 10th in the East, and when he left the Cavs a second time they again had the second worst record in the league! The proof is in front of everyone’s eyes but the propaganda is too strong. Only real ones can see the light.

[bledredwine]

Jordan literally couldn’t make it out of the first round until Scottie came. But he’s the best ever? LOL. Being able to win at least a little bit by yourself should be a minimum requirement to be called the best ever ffs.

Bulls in 92-93: 57-25
Bulls in 93-94 after MJ quits: 55-27

Just lmao. Dude had some of the MOST stacked teams of all time when you consider the weak era. Imagine giving LeBron a team so strong that they win 55 games without him. Jordan won nothing without ridiculously stacked squads, and Pippen like you said.

Pippen won 55 games and nearly went to the ECF without MJ. What exactly did MJ do without Scottie?

Exactly. When he left the Cavs for Miami they had the second worst record in the league and when he left the Heat they finished 10th in the East! The proof is in front of everyone’s eyes but the propaganda is too strong. Only real ones can see the light.

Why are you guys leaving out 94-95? Or how when a rusty Jordan returned, they went from
hovering around .500 to finishing the season 14-3 and then going 72-10 the next year, the best record ever at the time?

Excuses. Lebron’s played with a ridiculous amount of help. The big three was a tragedy and there’s no excuse for the trash 2011 performance. Two for four with that stacked squad was a failure.

Once again, all longevity or excuses. That’s what Lebron fans have.

[ScrantonBulls]

Bulls in 92-93: 57-25
Bulls in 93-94 after MJ quits: 55-27

Just lmao. Dude had some of the MOST stacked teams of all time when you consider the weak era. Imagine giving LeBron a team so strong that they win 55 games without him. Jordan won nothing without ridiculously stacked squads, and Pippen like you said.

Pippen won 55 games and nearly went to the ECF without MJ. What exactly did MJ do without Scottie?

Exactly. When he left the Cavs for Miami they had the second worst record in the league and when he left the Heat they finished 10th in the East! The proof is in front of everyone’s eyes but the propaganda is too strong. Only real ones can see the light.

Why are you guys leaving out 94-95? Or how when a rusty Jordan returned, they went from
hovering around .500 to finishing the season 14-3 and then going 72-10 the next year, the best record ever at the time?

Excuses. Lebron’s played with a ridiculous amount of help. The big three was a tragedy and there’s no excuse for the trash 2011 performance. Two for four with that stacked squad was a failure.

Once again, all longevity or excuses. That’s what Lebron fans have.

You mean when they lost Horace? The Bulls team suffered more when they lost Horace than when they lost MJ, lmao. Thanks for proving our point.

Oh yeah, 72-10 when he only had 3 other HOFers and the GOAT coach while the league was the weakest it has ever been. Diluted league during the expansion era, meanwhile the team has 4 HOFers and the GOAT coach. So impressive!

[bledredwine]

Exactly. When he left the Cavs for Miami they had the second worst record in the league and when he left the Heat they finished 10th in the East! The proof is in front of everyone’s eyes but the propaganda is too strong. Only real ones can see the light.

Why are you guys leaving out 94-95? Or how when a rusty Jordan returned, they went from
hovering around .500 to finishing the season 14-3 and then going 72-10 the next year, the best record ever at the time?

Excuses. Lebron’s played with a ridiculous amount of help. The big three was a tragedy and there’s no excuse for the trash 2011 performance. Two for four with that stacked squad was a failure.

Once again, all longevity or excuses. That’s what Lebron fans have.

You mean when they lost Horace? The Bulls team suffered more when they lost Horace than when they lost MJ, lmao. Thanks for proving our point.

Oh yeah, 72-10 when he only had 3 other HOFers and the GOAT coach while the league was the weakest it has ever been. Diluted league during the expansion era, meanwhile the team has 4 HOFers and the GOAT coach. So impressive!

A lot of trolling here. Once again, they went 14-3 as soon as they added Mj and 72-10 the next year without Horace, sweeping the Magic in the process. Nice try

[ScrantonBulls]

Why are you guys leaving out 94-95? Or how when a rusty Jordan returned, they went from
hovering around .500 to finishing the season 14-3 and then going 72-10 the next year, the best record ever at the time?

Excuses. Lebron’s played with a ridiculous amount of help. The big three was a tragedy and there’s no excuse for the trash 2011 performance. Two for four with that stacked squad was a failure.

Once again, all longevity or excuses. That’s what Lebron fans have.

You mean when they lost Horace? The Bulls team suffered more when they lost Horace than when they lost MJ, lmao. Thanks for proving our point.

Oh yeah, 72-10 when he only had 3 other HOFers and the GOAT coach while the league was the weakest it has ever been. Diluted league during the expansion era, meanwhile the team has 4 HOFers and the GOAT coach. So impressive!

A lot of trolling here. Once again, they went 14-3 as soon as they added Mj and 72-10 the next year without Horace, sweeping the Magic in the process. Nice try

A whole 17 game sample size? Somebody call the statistician, that is a HUGE sample size!

Oh yeah, no Horace. They only replaced him with a guy who just won All-NBA 3rd team, All-Defensive 1st team and the rebounding champion.

But I don't expect you to know that, because as we can see in your quote on my sig, you're absolutely clueless about MJ and the 90s Bulls it's astonishing that you're so poorly informed about the player and team you worship.

[Himothy Duncan]

Bulls in 92-93: 57-25
Bulls in 93-94 after MJ quits: 55-27

Just lmao. Dude had some of the MOST stacked teams of all time when you consider the weak era. Imagine giving LeBron a team so strong that they win 55 games without him. Jordan won nothing without ridiculously stacked squads, and Pippen like you said.

Pippen won 55 games and nearly went to the ECF without MJ. What exactly did MJ do without Scottie?

Exactly. When he left the Cavs for Miami they had the second worst record in the league and when he left the Heat they finished 10th in the East! The proof is in front of everyone’s eyes but the propaganda is too strong. Only real ones can see the light.

Why are you guys leaving out 94-95? Or how when a rusty Jordan returned, they went from
hovering around .500 to finishing the season 14-3 and then going 72-10 the next year, the best record ever at the time?

Excuses. Lebron’s played with a ridiculous amount of help. The big three was a tragedy and there’s no excuse for the trash 2011 performance. Two for four with that stacked squad was a failure.

Once again, all longevity or excuses. That’s what Lebron fans have.

Making it out of the first round has nothing to do with longevity. It’s about putting a team on your back. Something Jordan never did because he had Pippen doing the playmaking and guarding the other team’s best player. LeBron always did everything for his team.

[bledredwine]

You mean when they lost Horace? The Bulls team suffered more when they lost Horace than when they lost MJ, lmao. Thanks for proving our point.

Oh yeah, 72-10 when he only had 3 other HOFers and the GOAT coach while the league was the weakest it has ever been. Diluted league during the expansion era, meanwhile the team has 4 HOFers and the GOAT coach. So impressive!

A lot of trolling here. Once again, they went 14-3 as soon as they added Mj and 72-10 the next year without Horace, sweeping the Magic in the process. Nice try

A whole 17 game sample size? Somebody call the statistician, that is a HUGE sample size!

Oh yeah, no Horace. They only replaced him with a guy who just won All-NBA 3rd team, All-Defensive 1st team and the rebounding champion.

But I don't expect you to know that, because as we can see in your quote on my sig, you're absolutely clueless about MJ and the 90s Bulls it's astonishing that you're so poorly informed about the player and team you worship.

14+3+72+10 = 97 games. Nice try. Oh, and a championship, haha

[ScrantonBulls]

A lot of trolling here. Once again, they went 14-3 as soon as they added Mj and 72-10 the next year without Horace, sweeping the Magic in the process. Nice try

A whole 17 game sample size? Somebody call the statistician, that is a HUGE sample size!

Oh yeah, no Horace. They only replaced him with a guy who just won All-NBA 3rd team, All-Defensive 1st team and the rebounding champion.

But I don't expect you to know that, because as we can see in your quote on my sig, you're absolutely clueless about MJ and the 90s Bulls it's astonishing that you're so poorly informed about the player and team you worship.

14+3+72+10 = 97 games. Nice try. Oh, and a championship, haha

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks

Lmao!