Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[Raps in 4]

Yeah Scottie is the worse and yet when he sits we suck the hardest. What happened to him tonight btw?

Load management.

[dTox]

Oh I see, you were restricting it to the fourth year of their respective career. Yah, I agree. The weird thing about Scottie's draft class is that the perceived highest rizz in that draft class changes seemingly every few months. Pre-draft it was Mobley/Cade/Suggs (never saw much Greene hype, interestingly enough)... then for awhile it was Mobley/Scottie, then it was Mobley/Wagner, and now it seems to be Mobley/Cade. Now there's a thread on the general board about Cade being the future face of the league, when during his rookie year people seemed to just lump him in with Jalen Greene lol.

I'd love to find some oxtail roti! Turns out the place in my area (Mona's Roti. They have locations in Scarborough and Ajax.) has it. I despaired of finding it tbh since I try to only eat halal meat and I find it hard to find halal oxtail lol. Duck roti is awesome. I'd recommend it 10/10 times.

Don't do it. Mona's oxtail is not good.

Where else can I find halal ox tail )): lrizzlrizz

I live in the Hammer, there's a great place called Boom Scorch, if you happen to be in this side of the world.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I still view him as closer to the prime Iguodala range.

Masai built a really fun team with Iguodala. He just didn't act like he was a top 10 player in the NBA. A lot of people will confuse criticism for hate. The players will eventually tell the story of how good they are, so nothing we say matters at all. I think if we do turn it around next year Scottie will be a big part of that and I still believe he can prove me wrong.

[XTC]

I've started to analyze Scottie much more differently the last month or so. The facts are he's never going to be a big time scorer, he just doesn't have the mindset, or bag to be that guy. It is what it is, but if you start looking at other parts of his game you really start to appreciate his game. He's an good defender, rebounder, and playmaker for a guy his size.

I know we where throwing Ben Simmons comparisions a couple pages back, but I don't see it, because Ben was IMO a generational playmaker for a guy his size. The two guys Scottie has been really reminding me of lately are Andre Iguodala and Scottie Pippen.

PER100 Scottie 25
PPG - 27.8
RPG - 10.9
APG - 8.7
SPG - 2.0
BPG - 1.5
PER - 17.8
BPM - 2.4
TS - 53.0% (League AVG 57.4%)

PER100 Iggy 08
PPG - 26.7
RPG - 7.3
APG - 6.4
SPG - 2.8
BPG - 0.8
PER - 19.0
BPM - 4.0
TS - 54.3% (League AVG 54.0%)

PER100 Pippen 92
PPG - 27.6
RPG - 10.1
APG - 9.2
SPG - 2.5
BPG - 1.5
PER - 21.5
BPM - 6.1
TS - 55.5% (League AVG 53.1%)

He's a guy who impacts the game in a multitude of different ways. The next step for him is he desperately needs to work on his three ball so he starts hitting them at an above average rate. His efficiency is the one thing holding him back. Right now he's obviously not as good as Pippen, and quite frankly he's not even on Iggy's level, but once his three starts hitting he's already a better player than Iggy IMO. At that point it's about building his game and overall impact on the court.

[tsherkin]

The next step for him is he desperately needs to work on his three ball so he starts hitting them at an above average rate.

I wouldn't be holding my breath for this to work out any time soon.

As you say, though, the breadth of his game is nice. The defense and playmaking, which were his pre-draft strengths, have definitely been coming through. The broader efficiency will come when we start using him in different ways, as we did with RJ.

[XTC]

The next step for him is he desperately needs to work on his three ball so he starts hitting them at an above average rate.

I wouldn't be holding my breath for this to work out any time soon.

As you say, though, the breadth of his game is nice. The defense and playmaking, which were his pre-draft strengths, have definitely been coming through. The broader efficiency will come when we start using him in different ways, as we did with RJ.

If he can even start hitting three's at a 33% rate, to the point teams can't leave him open, that's still a W in my eyes.

[tsherkin]

If he can even start hitting three's at a 33% rate, to the point teams can't leave him open, that's still a W in my eyes.

I still wouldn't be holding my breath. He SUUUUCKS at 3s. If we use him more from the corner, his overall 3P% will rise, but his ATB shooting is crap.

[ArthurVandelay]

I've started to analyze Scottie much more differently the last month or so. The facts are he's never going to be a big time scorer, he just doesn't have the mindset, or bag to be that guy. It is what it is, but if you start looking at other parts of his game you really start to appreciate his game. He's an good defender, rebounder, and playmaker for a guy his size.

I know we where throwing Ben Simmons comparisions a couple pages back, but I don't see it, because Ben was IMO a generational playmaker for a guy his size. The two guys Scottie has been really reminding me of lately are Andre Iguodala and Scottie Pippen.

PER100 Scottie 25
PPG - 27.8
RPG - 10.9
APG - 8.7
SPG - 2.0
BPG - 1.5
PER - 17.8
BPM - 2.4
TS - 53.0% (League AVG 57.4%)

PER100 Iggy 08
PPG - 26.7
RPG - 7.3
APG - 6.4
SPG - 2.8
BPG - 0.8
PER - 19.0
BPM - 4.0
TS - 54.3% (League AVG 54.0%)

PER100 Pippen 92
PPG - 27.6
RPG - 10.1
APG - 9.2
SPG - 2.5
BPG - 1.5
PER - 21.5
BPM - 6.1
TS - 55.5% (League AVG 53.1%)

He's a guy who impacts the game in a multitude of different ways. The next step for him is he desperately needs to work on his three ball so he starts hitting them at an above average rate. His efficiency is the one thing holding him back. Right now he's obviously not as good as Pippen, and quite frankly he's not even on Iggy's level, but once his three starts hitting he's already a better player than Iggy IMO. At that point it's about building his game and overall impact on the court.

I assume you went with their 4th season in league.

Scottie 23
Iggy 24
Pippen 27

Iggy was top scorer for Philly but Pippen was playing with MJ.

The ts% sticks out. Going to be interesting to see what those numbers look like next year with BI and possibly RJ as top scorers.

[XTC]

I've started to analyze Scottie much more differently the last month or so. The facts are he's never going to be a big time scorer, he just doesn't have the mindset, or bag to be that guy. It is what it is, but if you start looking at other parts of his game you really start to appreciate his game. He's an good defender, rebounder, and playmaker for a guy his size.

I know we where throwing Ben Simmons comparisions a couple pages back, but I don't see it, because Ben was IMO a generational playmaker for a guy his size. The two guys Scottie has been really reminding me of lately are Andre Iguodala and Scottie Pippen.

PER100 Scottie 25
PPG - 27.8
RPG - 10.9
APG - 8.7
SPG - 2.0
BPG - 1.5
PER - 17.8
BPM - 2.4
TS - 53.0% (League AVG 57.4%)

PER100 Iggy 08
PPG - 26.7
RPG - 7.3
APG - 6.4
SPG - 2.8
BPG - 0.8
PER - 19.0
BPM - 4.0
TS - 54.3% (League AVG 54.0%)

PER100 Pippen 92
PPG - 27.6
RPG - 10.1
APG - 9.2
SPG - 2.5
BPG - 1.5
PER - 21.5
BPM - 6.1
TS - 55.5% (League AVG 53.1%)

He's a guy who impacts the game in a multitude of different ways. The next step for him is he desperately needs to work on his three ball so he starts hitting them at an above average rate. His efficiency is the one thing holding him back. Right now he's obviously not as good as Pippen, and quite frankly he's not even on Iggy's level, but once his three starts hitting he's already a better player than Iggy IMO. At that point it's about building his game and overall impact on the court.

I assume you went with their 4th season in league.

Scottie 23
Iggy 24
Pippen 27

Iggy was top scorer for Philly but Pippen was playing with MJ.

The ts% sticks out. Going to be interesting to see what those numbers look like next year with BI and possibly RJ as top scorers.

Upon going back I realized I accidently used Pippen's fifth season

PER100 Pippen 91
PPG - 24.3
RPG - 9.9
APG - 8.5
SPG - 3.2
BPG - 1.5
PER - 20.6
BPM - 5.8
TS - 56.1% (League AVG 53.4%)

Pippen was such a beast. For Scottie's archetype he is the gold standard.

[PD28]

That game winner attempt was something else. His offensive ceiling is not that high and I hope we can find a scorer in the draft so Scottie can primarily be a playmaker.

[AbC?]

Trey Murphy is now another player who has surpassed Barnes.

Should have been traded for Brooklyn Durant when we had the chance and he still had the potential label. And it was possible to make the salaries work (Boucher and Trent was enough).

[Brinbe]

People being too harsh on Scottie. He's probably playing above what his role should be as a scorer, but being force-fed these development reps right now doesn't hurt, it definitely helped Pascal/OG in the long-run. And if anything we've seen him do better in the clutch before, many times in fact. His defense has been magnificent though regardless, which is significant, and he's certainly a core player, which isn't nothing. The key is adding other pieces on his level and hopefully better. That was the hope with RJ/IQ and still tbd if they get there but they aren't totally negative players either. They may have another one of those core-level players in Ingram, we'll see next season, and they'll have pieces to consolidate further down the road to hopefully chase another.

[Vampirate]

Trey Murphy is now another player who has surpassed Barnes.

Should have been traded for Brooklyn Durant when we had the chance and he still had the potential label. And it was possible to make the salaries work (Boucher and Trent was enough).

Point blanc, I don't want to be the Suns, I don't mind trading Barnes if the offer is right, but Durant was not the correct trade to make.

The current Suns are about to break it up very soon most likely without much trade capitol in the future.

Also I have a hunch Durant wanted Beal as well, which is probably why the Suns made that trade.

[Basketball_Jones]

That game winner attempt was something else. His offensive ceiling is not that high and I hope we can find a scorer in the draft so Scottie can primarily be a playmaker.

We have BI now so it’s already happening. Drafting Tre Johnson or VJ would really put him down the pecking order and rightfully so I hope. Though I’m not super sold on Johnson’s game the stats don’t lie.

[Thaddy]

That game winner attempt was something else. His offensive ceiling is not that high and I hope we can find a scorer in the draft so Scottie can primarily be a playmaker.

We have BI now so it’s already happening. Drafting Tre Johnson or VJ would really put him down the pecking order and rightfully so I hope. Though I’m not super sold on Johnson’s game the stats don’t lie.

Edgecombe would be the best fit if he can shoot well from a stationary position. I feel like he's going to be a better shooter than Gradey at the NBA level because he has better athleticism and conditioning. It looks like defense and defensive rotations gas Gradey and he has no legs on offense to get his shot going.

Poeltl / Fleming
Barnes / Mogbo
Ingram / Dick / Agbaji / Walter
Barrett / Edgecombe
IQ / Shead

Something like that would work well for us next year, we can slowly develop our bench and load manage our starters. We should be looking to upgrade our back up PF position from Mogbo. Mogbo is really bad on offense and can't score at all. Dick should get us a good power forward on a rookie scale contract to provide balance. The defense between Shead and Edgecombe would be really good.

[PD28]

That game winner attempt was something else. His offensive ceiling is not that high and I hope we can find a scorer in the draft so Scottie can primarily be a playmaker.

We have BI now so it’s already happening. Drafting Tre Johnson or VJ would really put him down the pecking order and rightfully so I hope. Though I’m not super sold on Johnson’s game the stats don’t lie.

Edgecombe would be the best fit if he can shoot well from a stationary position. I feel like he's going to be a better shooter than Gradey at the NBA level because he has better athleticism and conditioning. It looks like defense and defensive rotations gas Gradey and he has no legs on offense to get his shot going.

Poeltl / Fleming
Barnes / Mogbo
Ingram / Dick / Agbaji / Walter
Barrett / Edgecombe
IQ / Shead

Something like that would work well for us next year, we can slowly develop our bench and load manage our starters. We should be looking to upgrade our back up PF position from Mogbo. Mogbo is really bad on offense and can't score at all. Dick should get us a good power forward on a rookie scale contract to provide balance. The defense between Shead and Edgecombe would be really good.

Edgecombe has elite athleticism unlike anything we've had since Vince however are we sold on his height not holding him back? Dude looks smaller than advertised. His motor looks amazing but I'm not sure how effective his career will be being at a height disadvantage at all positions outside of PG. If he is actually 6"5 then this is a non-point but he looks smaller lol

[TheProfessor]

Raptors have failed to build around Scottie, I don't blame him for his poor play. We have no shooter around aside from Ochaji, have no efficient isos scorers around him to get a break. We are overloading him offensive and as a result his defense is suffering. Scottie is a player that plays well with better players and with space. Yet we are clogging up his space with guys like RJ.

[tsherkin]

Raptors have failed to build around Scottie, I don't blame him for his poor play.

That is a mistake. Good scorers are able to score at a competent level regardless of peripheral talent. Scottie cannot do that. More over, he isn't just weak, he is having one of the worst volume-scoring seasons of the past decade and a half. That isn't about the way Toronto has built around him. That's a lot of personal deficiency relative to that role. You can say we are using him inappropriately, that would be accurate (unless the goal is tanking, in which case he's doing great as a scorer), but not that it's the team's fault that he is this bad in that role.

You can't build effectively around a guy who can't hack the role. That's pretty basic stuff. Some guys require more support for their scoring to be decent. That's fine, but they also are not effective as focal scoring pieces. Scottie will likely look better as we take away some of his self-creation and spoon-feed him a bit more, to be sure. And when we start actively trying to win, that needs to be a thing we do in order to best position ourselves for success, because he isn't good enough at the self-creation stuff to do it in high volume.

[TheProfessor]

Raptors have failed to build around Scottie, I don't blame him for his poor play.

That is a mistake. Good scorers are able to score at a competent level regardless of peripheral talent. Scottie cannot do that. More over, he isn't just weak, he is having one of the worst volume-scoring seasons of the past decade and a half. That isn't about the way Toronto has built around him. That's a lot of personal deficiency relative to that role. You can say we are using him inappropriately, that would be accurate (unless the goal is tanking, in which case he's doing great as a scorer), but not that it's the team's fault that he is this bad in that role.

You can't build effectively around a guy who can't hack the role. That's pretty basic stuff. Some guys require more support for their scoring to be decent. That's fine, but they also are not effective as focal scoring pieces. Scottie will likely look better as we take away some of his self-creation and spoon-feed him a bit more, to be sure. And when we start actively trying to win, that needs to be a thing we do in order to best position ourselves for success, because he isn't good enough at the self-creation stuff to do it in high volume.

Yeah but Scottie was never a true 1, he never profiled as a true 1. It is a teams fault, Scottie may never be a true number one, but give him some shooters and proper spacing and I am almost a 100% sure he will look significantly better. Do you really believe that Scottie is one of the worst scorers of the last 25 years. You can tank and still give your future star help, only one player is shooting above 38% from 3 for the Toronto raptors.

I think the raptors roster construction regardless of tanking or not has been detrimental to Scottie, I think RJ and him don't work. I do not think he and Ingram will work. Adding a Hauser, Niang or Allen type wont be detrimental to the tank, but will help your talent develop. For all these Organic growth nonsense I have been hearing on this board, aside from a guy like Ochaji or Boucher, we don't really have guys that help foster growth.

[tsherkin]

Yeah but Scottie was never a true 1, he never profiled as a true 1. It is a teams fault,

No no no. You said "the team failed to build around Scottie." But if he wasn't good enough to be a #1 (which he isn't), then that's a description of Scottie's insufficiencies. Again, a misdeployment, but there was never a chance that they COULD have built well around him in that focal role.

Do you really believe that Scottie is one of the worst scorers of the last 25 years.

He isn't a good volume scorer. What I said was that he was having one of the worst volume scoring seasons of the past 15 years. Which is objectively true. He doesn't get to the rim enough, he isn't elite at drawing fouls, he's a mediocre FT shooter, he is incompetent from 3, he doesn't have an elite middle game (this year he's making his 12-footers well enough, but that's not a foundation). He doesn't have elite speed. He doesn't have the tools to be an elite scorer. This is known. This was his projection before the draft and it remains true 4 years into his career. It isn't a surprise. He isn't good enough to be a focal scorer, so he's bad in that role. He's a good player, he's capable of being a positive contributor on a winning team, just not in that specific role.

You can tank and still give your future star help, only one player is shooting above 38% from 3 for the Toronto raptors.

He isn't a future star. Not in the sense of being a focal piece. He's an accent piece. A supporting star on a good team.