Channing Frye: Nostalgia is KILLING the NBA. 90s basketball era with MJ and Kobe was not as clean as you think.

[breezypeezy]

Whats killing the NBA is the defensive rule changes, poor officiating and the boring as tears mind numbing spectacle of watching 90 moonball chucks from 45 feet, rinse repeat, rinse repeat Zzzzzzzzzz

[sashaturiaf]

Whats killing the NBA is the defensive rule changes, poor officiating and the boring as tears mind numbing spectacle of watching 90 moonball chucks from 45 feet, rinse repeat, rinse repeat Zzzzzzzzzz

Simple as that

Plus the endless stoppages and entitled load managing diva players

I thought I was getting sick of basketball. Then I watched some Olympics ball and realised the problem is the NBA all along

[vincecarter4pres]

I think the only thing that isn’t better than golden era NBA now, is how they allow all these ridiculous 4 and 5 step travels.

Aside from that, today’s NBA is tremendously more entertaining and skillful then that era, besides the playoffs, which were equal or better to the current.

Start calling the travels again and this era would be hands down better overall.

Also the rivalries were more fierce and real. And there is something to be said for that.

Imho of course.

[Special_Puppy]

Whats killing the NBA is the defensive rule changes, poor officiating and the boring as tears mind numbing spectacle of watching 90 moonball chucks from 45 feet, rinse repeat, rinse repeat Zzzzzzzzzz

3 pointers are replacing long midrange shots. Do you have a preference for long midrange shots over 3 pointers?

[Special_Puppy]

Touche. Klay is definitely old school. I'm talking about most of the kids that can't play in back to backs. It is getting a little ridiculous.

So your first example of why the old era was better - because guys shot free throws after injuries (just lol) had a sample size of 2 players provided, and it turns out you were wrong. Your next sample has yet again a sample size of what, 2 players? Embiid and Kawhi, who basically have degenerative injuries. Most players play back to backs. JBasing it off such small samples sizes though... It's just comically bad rationale.

Nah. I don't think Nostalgia is an issue. Fans like to see scoring. The 90s was very heavily tilted toward defenders. Now it has swung way too far the other way. Way too much offense and not allowing defenders to do anything.

I don't even think the 3 pointers are necessarily the issue. They just need to allow defenders to hand check or something to slow down the scoring just a bit. It's at the point where most teams usually don't get stops. It's just a matter of who scores last before the timer runs out.

I do feel like the players are a little softer and more entitled.

The rise in offense in the NBA is 20-25% about defensive rule changes (most predominately making carry rules and screening rules more lax) and 75-80% about 3 pointers. Leaguewide Offense rating increased ~2 points from 2000 to 2016. It increased ~7 points from 2016 to 2025

[Nate505]

The Jordan and Kobe's marketing machines have been so successful that they have turned the most awful to watch period in modern NBA history (the late 90s to early 2000s) into a golden era for the league in the minds of so many people. It's bizarre to me, I for one don't miss at all the low pace and low scoring grindfests of the era or all the guys who tried to be Jordan by chucking lots of shots and failed miserably.

Today's era is much better. Because guys can hit 3s. And 3s are worth more than 2s. So we get guys shooting 3s. And shooting 3s. And more 3s. With some 3s sprinkled in. Because there's nothing more interesting than watching guys shoot 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3.

[Nate505]

Whats killing the NBA is the defensive rule changes, poor officiating and the boring as tears mind numbing spectacle of watching 90 moonball chucks from 45 feet, rinse repeat, rinse repeat Zzzzzzzzzz

3 pointers are replacing long midrange shots. Do you have a preference for long midrange shots over 3 pointers?

I won't answer for him, but yes, I do, for many reasons.

[breezypeezy]

Yeah I really dont even like 3"s at all. Eliminate the 3 altogether at this point, baskets are 2 points, get rid of incidental contact calls let the best athletes loose.

It'd be a great improvement to this product that isnt as interesting as even Brooklyn street ball.

[Rapcity_11]

The Jordan and Kobe's marketing machines have been so successful that they have turned the most awful to watch period in modern NBA history (the late 90s to early 2000s) into a golden era for the league in the minds of so many people. It's bizarre to me, I for one don't miss at all the low pace and low scoring grindfests of the era or all the guys who tried to be Jordan by chucking lots of shots and failed miserably.

Today's era is much better. Because guys can hit 3s. And 3s are worth more than 2s. So we get guys shooting 3s. And shooting 3s. And more 3s. With some 3s sprinkled in. Because there's nothing more interesting than watching guys shoot 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3.

~60% of shots are 2s and that doesn't FTA which would bring that up even higher.

[Rapcity_11]

Same posters on here dapping up Frye for speaking up are the same posters telling Barkley and Shaq to shup up for trashing the modern nba for load management, too many 3s, and for being soft. Again the hypocrisy.

What exactly is the hypocrisy here?

[MavsDirk41]

Same posters on here dapping up Frye for speaking up are the same posters telling Barkley and Shaq to shup up for trashing the modern nba for load management, too many 3s, and for being soft. Again the hypocrisy.

What exactly is the hypocrisy here?

So its cool to trash 80s/90s nba but if past players trash the modern nba its “old man yelling at clouds” or whatever. Barkley and Shaq didnt play in the modern nba. And Frye along with Gilbert Arenas and JJ Redick didnt play in the 80s and 90s.

[Sedale Threatt]

The Jordan and Kobe's marketing machines have been so successful that they have turned the most awful to watch period in modern NBA history (the late 90s to early 2000s) into a golden era for the league in the minds of so many people. It's bizarre to me, I for one don't miss at all the low pace and low scoring grindfests of the era or all the guys who tried to be Jordan by chucking lots of shots and failed miserably.

The worst hoops I've ever seen:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1999-nba-finals-knicks-vs-spurs.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2005-nba-finals-pistons-vs-spurs.html

Anti-basketball.

[Rapcity_11]

Same posters on here dapping up Frye for speaking up are the same posters telling Barkley and Shaq to shup up for trashing the modern nba for load management, too many 3s, and for being soft. Again the hypocrisy.

What exactly is the hypocrisy here?

So its cool to trash 80s/90s nba but if past players trash the modern nba its “old man yelling at clouds” or whatever. Barkley and Shaq didnt play in the modern nba. And Frye along with Gilbert Arenas and JJ Redick didnt play in the 80s and 90s.

The difference is Frye isn't doing it unprompted. He's responding directly to the moronic takes out there.

No hypocrisy, sorry.

[Frank Lee]

Wrong. Ewing and the Knicks were popular through the whole 90s, then came Alonzo Mourning and the Hornets. LJ, the rise of Shaquille O'Neal and Penny in Orlando, Stockton and Malone, Reggie Millers clutch shots and the Miller time beer commercials were a huge hit, The 96 draft class. I can go on and on. Only thing you revealed just now is how casual you are to that time. Thinking 1 man was behind all of that. Jordan was Major part of it all, but the rest of those stars around the league did their part at keeping fans watching as well.

Removing Mike from it is just your own wishful thinking for whatever reason.

MJ retired twice in the 90’s and ratings collapsed both times.

If you think guys like Penny Hardaway and Alonzo Mourning were going to carry the league in his place, you’re delusional.

The lowest finals ratings in the 90’s were 94, 95 and 99. I wonder what happened in those years? The ‘94 finals saw a 30% drop in ratings from the previous season, which is a big number. The ‘98 to ‘99 drop off was 40%.

TV/cable/internet has a great influence on this whole conversation. What is taken for granted today was a luxury in the past. Being a dinosaur, I know I listened (yes, a radio) to more games my first ten yrs as a fan. There was no other way to follow most teams but radio and box scores.

Interesting article about ratings
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradadgate/2024/07/15/there-was-once-a-time-when-tv-networks-tape-delayed-the-nba-finals/

Imagine that

And then there was cutting away to OJ and his bronco during the ‘94 Knicks/Rocket finals.

NBA coverage has come along way.
There is just way more access to today’s game and way more nba junkies. Ie this whole forum. I couldn’t talk hoops but with 4-5 dudes usually at a bar…. Now I don’t even have to get out of bed. Technology has spawned a whole opinion filled industry centered around every detail of these players and teams. It’s the ‘gotta know first/now’ environment we live in. Every game, every play, will be available to view 30 yrs from now. And it won’t be long before AI creates dynasty match ups for your viewing pleasure. Perhaps that will settle this debate once and for all.



Nothing wrong with nostalgia, except you have to be old to truly appreciate it. Yall will get it one day, if you are lucky enough.

Now, stay off my lawn dagnabbit

[og15]

Yeah I really dont even like 3"s at all. Eliminate the 3 altogether at this point, baskets are 2 points, get rid of incidental contact calls let the best athletes loose.

It'd be a great improvement to this product that isnt as interesting as even Brooklyn street ball.

No version of basketball is getting rid of three's, you're trying to get rid of one problem by creating a massively larger one.

If you get rid of three's you would have to change many other rules. Part of why the NBA banned zone initially was because if there's no three's, inside is extremely crowded already, then even more so if I don't have to play man to man. Teams would just camp inside, and it would just become and even worse outside jumpshooting contest.

People really don't realize they are complaining about outside shooting and then proposing solutions that would result in more outside shots, but oh, since they won't count as 3 points, suddenly I'll enjoy it more?

[Bergmaniac]

The Jordan and Kobe's marketing machines have been so successful that they have turned the most awful to watch period in modern NBA history (the late 90s to early 2000s) into a golden era for the league in the minds of so many people. It's bizarre to me, I for one don't miss at all the low pace and low scoring grindfests of the era or all the guys who tried to be Jordan by chucking lots of shots and failed miserably.

Today's era is much better. Because guys can hit 3s. And 3s are worth more than 2s. So we get guys shooting 3s. And shooting 3s. And more 3s. With some 3s sprinkled in. Because there's nothing more interesting than watching guys shoot 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3.

That's not what I said at all, but when all you have is a hammer...

I prefer today's basketball because of the higher pace, more skilled players, less ISOs and generally smarter coaching. And for the life of me I don't understand what makes 3s worse to watch than long 2s (this is the biggest change in shot distribution). What makes a drive and kick for a corner 3 less fun to you than a drive and kick for a baseline 18 footer, for example, which was a pretty common play in earlier years in the league?

[bledredwine]

The Jordan and Kobe's marketing machines have been so successful that they have turned the most awful to watch period in modern NBA history (the late 90s to early 2000s) into a golden era for the league in the minds of so many people. It's bizarre to me, I for one don't miss at all the low pace and low scoring grindfests of the era or all the guys who tried to be Jordan by chucking lots of shots and failed miserably.

Today's era is much better. Because guys can hit 3s. And 3s are worth more than 2s. So we get guys shooting 3s. And shooting 3s. And more 3s. With some 3s sprinkled in. Because there's nothing more interesting than watching guys shoot 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3.

That's not what I said at all, but when all you have is a hammer...

I prefer today's basketball because of the higher pace, more skilled players, less ISOs and generally smarter coaching. And for the life of me I don't understand what makes 3s worse to watch than long 2s (this is the biggest change in shot distribution). What makes a drive and kick for a corner 3 less fun to you than a drive and kick for a baseline 18 footer, for example, which was a pretty common play in earlier years in the league?

What makes it worse?

Because now it's 3's or completely inside the paint shots.

Before, you had everything as part of the game, elbows, post etc. Just see the shot chart thread and you'll see.

It's hard to argue against that variety. And defense is a whole different conversation.

How many poster dunks do you see these days on top of bigs?
Bigs simply can't contest dunks anymore.

You can like the modern game more. That's fine, but it definitely has less variety and there's a heavy amount of spammed threes.
That is undeniable.

[og15]

Today's era is much better. Because guys can hit 3s. And 3s are worth more than 2s. So we get guys shooting 3s. And shooting 3s. And more 3s. With some 3s sprinkled in. Because there's nothing more interesting than watching guys shoot 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3.

That's not what I said at all, but when all you have is a hammer...

I prefer today's basketball because of the higher pace, more skilled players, less ISOs and generally smarter coaching. And for the life of me I don't understand what makes 3s worse to watch than long 2s (this is the biggest change in shot distribution). What makes a drive and kick for a corner 3 less fun to you than a drive and kick for a baseline 18 footer, for example, which was a pretty common play in earlier years in the league?

What makes it worse?

Because now it's 3's or completely inside the paint shots.

Before, you had everything as part of the game, elbows, post etc. Just see the shot chart thread and you'll see.

It's hard to argue against that variety. And defense is a whole different conversation.

How many poster dunks do you see these days on top of bigs?
Bigs simply can't contest dunks anymore.

You can like the modern game more. That's fine, but it definitely has less variety and there's a heavy amount of spammed threes.
That is undeniable.

The bolded I don't get, is that a thing? If so, why? Seems like a decent sample from just the first few months of the season:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygURT29zdGVyIGR1YmtzIDIwMjQ%3D

Definitely less use of the middle game by anyone who isn't a star, and of course can't really blame teams when it is the more efficient way to play based on having a 3PT shot. That fact that it took time to "stick" in the league is whatever, that's just how change happens (usually slowly), but once it happens, you can't unknow what you know.

Like I've mentioned before and many people clearly aren't aware of, especially when they cite Euroleague and FIBA as representing the old NBA, Euroleague (and college) with their smaller courts, shorter 3PT (even shorter before) and zones were utilizing the 3PT shot far more than the NBA. NBA though had the same thing when the line came in, in 96-97, we had 9 teams at 18+ 3PA , when there were zero in 93-94, and we had a guard/wing led team go up all the way to 25 a game. We had the Rockets take 21 a game and go up to 23 a game in the playoffs. A modern coach with would have had a team like the Rockets at 30+ 3PA in those years.



I don't know what the "solution" is if people want more mid-range usage, it's just not an effective enough shot compared to the 3PT for all but the best players, and it doesn't create as much space for the post, Mid-Post, and inside attack if guys are in the mid-range area, so of course teams are going to try to maximize success.

This is from Euroleague, but we see the obvious issue:


Point per shot decreases as you move away from the basket, then drastically increases as you get to the 3PT. Even the long three is at 0.96 PPS vs 0.74 in the mid-range area. There's no way for us to get teams to unknow this. I mean to be fair, this isn't "new". Think of all the shots that used to be taken in the 60's as regular shots (all the sweeping hooks, etc). They didn't need data, but coaches realized that floaters and pull up jumpshots were far more effective shots.

If you watched basketball in the 60's you might say there are fewer variety of shots being taken in the 80's, and you would be correct, more guys were using more "tried and true" shots, and less wild stuff was being attempted, but you can't expect them to unknow what they realized about the relative effectiveness of the different shot types. Some of them were pretty fun though and to be fair, I pull out some of that in pick up basketball for fun, and they are make able if you work on them, just not the most reliable options.

We'll see how things continue to progress...

[threethehardway]

What makes it worse?

Because now it's 3's or completely inside the paint shots.

Before, you had everything as part of the game, elbows, post etc. Just see the shot chart thread and you'll see.

It's hard to argue against that variety. And defense is a whole different conversation.

How many poster dunks do you see these days on top of bigs?
Bigs simply can't contest dunks anymore.

You can like the modern game more. That's fine, but it definitely has less variety and there's a heavy amount of spammed threes.
That is undeniable.

The modern game doesn't have less variety.

It has less of average to bad players doing things that they cannot effectively do because they have been optimized in favor of team construction and emphasizing the talents of star players.

What you are clamoring for is seeing guys like Ricky Davis and Darius Miles try to play like Jordan and fail spectacularly in favor of variety.

Cade Cunningham, Kevin Durant, and SGA takes midrange shots.

Ja Morant, Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell dunk on people.

Stephen Curry, Luka and Trae Young bomb off the dribble 3 pointers.

You guys are misremembering late 90s and early 2000s basketball as this beautiful game of with high variety sexy midrange shots, post footwork and dunks, when in reality it was guys like Jerry Stackhouse, Allen Houston, Stephon Marbury, and Stevie Franchise putting up 16 shots to get 16 points on most nights. It was a brickfest.

[Bergmaniac]

That's not what I said at all, but when all you have is a hammer...

I prefer today's basketball because of the higher pace, more skilled players, less ISOs and generally smarter coaching. And for the life of me I don't understand what makes 3s worse to watch than long 2s (this is the biggest change in shot distribution). What makes a drive and kick for a corner 3 less fun to you than a drive and kick for a baseline 18 footer, for example, which was a pretty common play in earlier years in the league?

What makes it worse?

Because now it's 3's or completely inside the paint shots.

Before, you had everything as part of the game, elbows, post etc. Just see the shot chart thread and you'll see.

It's hard to argue against that variety. And defense is a whole different conversation.

How many poster dunks do you see these days on top of bigs?
Bigs simply can't contest dunks anymore.

You can like the modern game more. That's fine, but it definitely has less variety and there's a heavy amount of spammed threes.
That is undeniable.

The bolded I do t get, is that a thing?

It's not, he is making up stuff as usual, I doubt he even watches the league currently.