RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bledredwine]

LeBron has no hole of his games outside of free throw shooting....If you want to talk about the mid range,who don't matter much in the current NBA,I can talk of the 3 points shooting of Jordan who was trash for the most part outside of 1996

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

And the funny thing is even Jordan’s 3 point shooting was much better than Lebron’s in the finals and the three was created just four years before Jordan entered the league. Jordan was average from three relative to the league and Lebron was below average for league standard. When Jordan actually chose to shoot threes (shooting three+), he was excellent, and that’s not only when it was temporarily shortened but throughout his career. I’ll have to find the vid with stats again.

The guy could hit deep fadeaways efficiently - of course he’d be able to hit threes and he chose not to take threes because he thought it would be a lazy way to play (his own words)

[Homer38]

LeBron has no hole of his games outside of free throw shooting....If you want to talk about the mid range,who don't matter much in the current NBA,I can talk of the 3 points shooting of Jordan who was trash for the most part outside of 1996

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

I don't think he had any but LeBron was a more complete player.

[bledredwine]

LeBron has no hole of his games outside of free throw shooting....If you want to talk about the mid range,who don't matter much in the current NBA,I can talk of the 3 points shooting of Jordan who was trash for the most part outside of 1996

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

I don't think he had any but LeBron was a more complete player.

I wouldn’t consider someone who chose not to play on half of the court for a big percentage of his career and hits 3 of every 4 freethwos, a worse dribbler with more turnovers a more complete player than Jordan. Relative to position, Jordan ranks higher in everything except passing.

Thats jordan’s thing- he’s known as the most complete player of all time and doesn’t have flaws like lebron has had (obviously midrange, freethrows, dribbling, last shot clutch percentage) and it’s manifested in series that way. He’s been more consistent than the rest of the league, but definitely not Jordan.

I also have a video that shows shooting and it’s wild how much more often he had games under say .400 shooting compared to Jordan who was so consistently dominant. You’re trying to compare Lebron to someone who didn’t have blemishes (meaning his own fault to lose games), has the advanced metrics over lebron, the achievements, didn’t have weakness, so that’s a very tall task.

Try to chalk it up to whatever you guys like, but that’s what Jordan was. He came into the league hitting a championship winner and nearly left the league that way. He became legend of legends for a reason. The only thing causing this discussion is some people really don’t like that and really like Lebron. He’s nowhere near deserving of the GOAT title after his inconsistent career blemishes and the times he was exposed are way more numerous than Jordan as he never was….. as impressive as Lebron’s longevity is.

[Homer38]

LeBron has no hole of his games outside of free throw shooting....If you want to talk about the mid range,who don't matter much in the current NBA,I can talk of the 3 points shooting of Jordan who was trash for the most part outside of 1996

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

And the funny thing is even Jordan’s 3 point shooting was much better than Lebron’s in the finals and the three was created just four years before Jordan entered the league. Jordan was average from three relative to the league and Lebron was below average for league standard. When Jordan actually chose to shoot threes (shooting three+), he was excellent, and that’s not only when it was temporarily shortened but throughout his career. I’ll have to find the vid with stats again.

The guy could hit deep fadeaways efficiently - of course he’d be able to hit threes and he chose not to take threes because he thought it would be a lazy way to play (his own words)

When the 3 point line was no closer to the norm, Jordan had only 2 seasons at 35% or better and the majority of the time he was at under 30% during his career....

Jordan was not great at everything

[bledredwine]

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

And the funny thing is even Jordan’s 3 point shooting was much better than Lebron’s in the finals and the three was created just four years before Jordan entered the league. Jordan was average from three relative to the league and Lebron was below average for league standard. When Jordan actually chose to shoot threes (shooting three+), he was excellent, and that’s not only when it was temporarily shortened but throughout his career. I’ll have to find the vid with stats again.

The guy could hit deep fadeaways efficiently - of course he’d be able to hit threes and he chose not to take threes because he thought it would be a lazy way to play (his own words)

When the 3 point line was no closer to the norm, Jordan had only 2 seasons at 35% or better and the majority of the time he was at under 30% during his career....

Jordan was not great at everything

You need to look up playoff and finals series where he choose to take threes. I’ll be back later, but it’s quite impressive, especially considering that he didn’t really care to take threes. And in the finals he was significantly better. Fact is he was league average and Lebron below. Era does matter in this context, just as it does with all of the wide open layups.

[Homer38]

Other than 3 point shooting what was Jordans weakness?

I don't think he had any but LeBron was a more complete player.

I wouldn’t consider someone who chose not to play on half of the court for a big percentage of his career and hits 3 of every 4 freethwos, a worse dribbler with more turnovers a more complete player than Jordan. Relative to position, Jordan ranks higher in everything except passing.

Thats jordan’s thing- he’s known as the most complete player of all time and doesn’t have flaws like lebron has had (obviously midrange, freethrows, dribbling, last shot clutch percentage) and it’s manifested in series that way. He’s been more consistent than the rest of the league, but definitely not Jordan.

I also have a video that shows shooting and it’s wild how much more often he had games under say .400 shooting compared to Jordan who was so consistently dominant. You’re trying to compare Lebron to someone who didn’t have blemishes (meaning his own fault to lose games), has the advanced metrics over lebron, the achievements, didn’t have weakness, so that’s a very tall task.

Try to chalk it up to whatever you guys like, but that’s what Jordan was. He came into the league hitting a championship winner and nearly left the league that way. He became legend of legends for a reason. The only thing causing this discussion is some people really don’t like that and really like Lebron. He’s nowhere near deserving of the GOAT title after his inconsistent career blemishes and the times he was exposed are way more numerous than Jordan as he never was….. as impressive as Lebron’s longevity is.

Jordan is a better scorer (even if LeBron was great at it, but the difference is that Jordan had more volume but LeBron's stats are great in his career when he attempts 30 FGA in a game), mid range shooter and free throw shooter

For the rest, LeBron is better or even at Jordan at everything, including defense (Jordan's DPOY was questionable in 1988 and LeBron had finished second twice, including 2013 when he was robbed) but LeBron was more versatile in defense and both were clutch like crazy... You can choose the stats whenever you want, because yes it's true the 3 point % is not good in certain and random situation for James but overall he is one of the best clutch performer of all-time in big moment, close game, his team was the most clutch team in several years in his career and etc.... Yes he had his final in 2011, but it was 14 years ago, time to move on from that....He was clutch before and since then...Just look at the stats below

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[bledredwine]

I don't think he had any but LeBron was a more complete player.

I wouldn’t consider someone who chose not to play on half of the court for a big percentage of his career and hits 3 of every 4 freethwos, a worse dribbler with more turnovers a more complete player than Jordan. Relative to position, Jordan ranks higher in everything except passing.

Thats jordan’s thing- he’s known as the most complete player of all time and doesn’t have flaws like lebron has had (obviously midrange, freethrows, dribbling, last shot clutch percentage) and it’s manifested in series that way. He’s been more consistent than the rest of the league, but definitely not Jordan.

I also have a video that shows shooting and it’s wild how much more often he had games under say .400 shooting compared to Jordan who was so consistently dominant. You’re trying to compare Lebron to someone who didn’t have blemishes (meaning his own fault to lose games), has the advanced metrics over lebron, the achievements, didn’t have weakness, so that’s a very tall task.

Try to chalk it up to whatever you guys like, but that’s what Jordan was. He came into the league hitting a championship winner and nearly left the league that way. He became legend of legends for a reason. The only thing causing this discussion is some people really don’t like that and really like Lebron. He’s nowhere near deserving of the GOAT title after his inconsistent career blemishes and the times he was exposed are way more numerous than Jordan as he never was….. as impressive as Lebron’s longevity is.

Jordan is a better scorer (even if LeBron was great at it, but the difference is that Jordan had more volume but LeBron's stats are great in his career when he attempts 30 FGA in a game), mid range shooter and free throw shooter

For the rest, LeBron is better or even at Jordan at everything, including defense (Jordan's DPOY was questionable in 1988 and LeBron had finished second twice, including 2013 when he was robbed) but LeBron was more versatile in defense and both were clutch like crazy... You can choose the stats whenever you want, because yes it's true the 3 point % is not good in certain and random situation for James but overall he is one of the best clutch performer of all-time in big moment, close game, his team was the most clutch team in several years in his career and etc.... Yes he had his final in 2011, but it was 14 years ago, time to move on from that....He was clutch before and since then...Just look at the stats below

Read on Twitter

Lebron’s played at nowhere near the level of Jordan on defense. Jordan is also the better rebounder relative at his position and has more defensive rebounds per game, by the way.

Assists is the only thing lebron has over Jordan. Calling lebron a better defender is a fan’s perspective, not an actual perspective. I’ve seen small forwards light lebron up his entire career, including melo and durant. Durant averages more points per game over their matchups for their entire career than lebron. When did Jordan allow anywhere close to that with another player?

[Homer38]

And the funny thing is even Jordan’s 3 point shooting was much better than Lebron’s in the finals and the three was created just four years before Jordan entered the league. Jordan was average from three relative to the league and Lebron was below average for league standard. When Jordan actually chose to shoot threes (shooting three+), he was excellent, and that’s not only when it was temporarily shortened but throughout his career. I’ll have to find the vid with stats again.

The guy could hit deep fadeaways efficiently - of course he’d be able to hit threes and he chose not to take threes because he thought it would be a lazy way to play (his own words)

When the 3 point line was no closer to the norm, Jordan had only 2 seasons at 35% or better and the majority of the time he was at under 30% during his career....

Jordan was not great at everything

You need to look up playoff and finals series where he choose to take threes. I’ll be back later, but it’s quite impressive, especially considering that he didn’t really care to take threes. And in the finals he was significantly better. Fact is he was league average and Lebron below. Era does matter in this context, just as it does with all of the wide open layups.

36.8% is not significantly better that 35.2%...Good try too.And why when Jordan is not good,this is because he didn't really care,I mean c'mon...I am sure you think he would been good at guarding peak Shaq in the post

[bledredwine]

When the 3 point line was no closer to the norm, Jordan had only 2 seasons at 35% or better and the majority of the time he was at under 30% during his career....

Jordan was not great at everything

You need to look up playoff and finals series where he choose to take threes. I’ll be back later, but it’s quite impressive, especially considering that he didn’t really care to take threes. And in the finals he was significantly better. Fact is he was league average and Lebron below. Era does matter in this context, just as it does with all of the wide open layups.

36.8% is not significantly better that 35.2%...Good try too.And why when Jordan is not good,this is because he didn't really care,I mean c'mon...I am sure you think he would been good at guarding peak Shaq in the post

They’re identical in the playoffs at .332 from three and Jordan better in the finals.

The difference is that Jordan didn’t work on threes and Lebron’s been working on them his entire career. So Jordan’s one “weakness” is as good as lebron without working or caring about it. That’s the difference.

[Homer38]

I wouldn’t consider someone who chose not to play on half of the court for a big percentage of his career and hits 3 of every 4 freethwos, a worse dribbler with more turnovers a more complete player than Jordan. Relative to position, Jordan ranks higher in everything except passing.

Thats jordan’s thing- he’s known as the most complete player of all time and doesn’t have flaws like lebron has had (obviously midrange, freethrows, dribbling, last shot clutch percentage) and it’s manifested in series that way. He’s been more consistent than the rest of the league, but definitely not Jordan.

I also have a video that shows shooting and it’s wild how much more often he had games under say .400 shooting compared to Jordan who was so consistently dominant. You’re trying to compare Lebron to someone who didn’t have blemishes (meaning his own fault to lose games), has the advanced metrics over lebron, the achievements, didn’t have weakness, so that’s a very tall task.

Try to chalk it up to whatever you guys like, but that’s what Jordan was. He came into the league hitting a championship winner and nearly left the league that way. He became legend of legends for a reason. The only thing causing this discussion is some people really don’t like that and really like Lebron. He’s nowhere near deserving of the GOAT title after his inconsistent career blemishes and the times he was exposed are way more numerous than Jordan as he never was….. as impressive as Lebron’s longevity is.

Jordan is a better scorer (even if LeBron was great at it, but the difference is that Jordan had more volume but LeBron's stats are great in his career when he attempts 30 FGA in a game), mid range shooter and free throw shooter

For the rest, LeBron is better or even at Jordan at everything, including defense (Jordan's DPOY was questionable in 1988 and LeBron had finished second twice, including 2013 when he was robbed) but LeBron was more versatile in defense and both were clutch like crazy... You can choose the stats whenever you want, because yes it's true the 3 point % is not good in certain and random situation for James but overall he is one of the best clutch performer of all-time in big moment, close game, his team was the most clutch team in several years in his career and etc.... Yes he had his final in 2011, but it was 14 years ago, time to move on from that....He was clutch before and since then...Just look at the stats below

Read on Twitter

Lebron’s played at nowhere near the level of Jordan on defense. Jordan is also the better rebounder relative at his position and has more defensive rebounds per game, by the way.

Assists is the only thing lebron has over Jordan. Calling lebron a better defender is a fan’s perspective, not an actual perspective. I’ve seen small forwards light lebron up his entire career, including melo and durant. Durant averages more points per game over their matchups for their entire career than lebron. When did Jordan allow anywhere close to that with another player?

James is way more versatile and Jordan never had a playoff series when he shut down an elite player in key moments like James did vs Rose in 2011....and that's just one example, he did so many times in his prime...Paul Pierce never had a good playoff series vs James even when Pierce was still a great player....

And for Durant,the PPG is not everthing on offense.Durant was 4-17 in his career vs LeBron before he play with a better player that him with 2 time back to back MVP in Steph Curry and a strong supporting cast with that...The focus of Lue was on Curry in those finals and he admitted that,so I don't care if KD had like 1-2 PPG more that LBJ since LeBron was better at everything else

[bledredwine]

Jordan is a better scorer (even if LeBron was great at it, but the difference is that Jordan had more volume but LeBron's stats are great in his career when he attempts 30 FGA in a game), mid range shooter and free throw shooter

For the rest, LeBron is better or even at Jordan at everything, including defense (Jordan's DPOY was questionable in 1988 and LeBron had finished second twice, including 2013 when he was robbed) but LeBron was more versatile in defense and both were clutch like crazy... You can choose the stats whenever you want, because yes it's true the 3 point % is not good in certain and random situation for James but overall he is one of the best clutch performer of all-time in big moment, close game, his team was the most clutch team in several years in his career and etc.... Yes he had his final in 2011, but it was 14 years ago, time to move on from that....He was clutch before and since then...Just look at the stats below

Read on Twitter

Lebron’s played at nowhere near the level of Jordan on defense. Jordan is also the better rebounder relative at his position and has more defensive rebounds per game, by the way.

Assists is the only thing lebron has over Jordan. Calling lebron a better defender is a fan’s perspective, not an actual perspective. I’ve seen small forwards light lebron up his entire career, including melo and durant. Durant averages more points per game over their matchups for their entire career than lebron. When did Jordan allow anywhere close to that with another player?

James is way more versatile and Jordan never had a playoff series when he shut down an elite player in key moments like James did vs Rose in 2011....and that's just one example, he did so many times in his prime...Paul Pierce never had a good playoff series vs James even when Pierce was still a great player....

And for Durant,the PPG is not everthing on offense.Durant was 4-17 in his career vs LeBron before he play with a better player that him with 2 time back to back MVP in Steph Curry and a strong supporting cast with that...The focus of Lue was on Curry in those finals and he admitted that,so I don't care if KD had like 1-2 PPG more that LBJ since LeBron was better at everything else

Dude, Jordan had several playoff series where he shut down key players. Take a look at the 92 finals or if you don’t want to, look at Clyde’s efficiency. That was much more impressive than taking a Miami double team trap to help shut down a smaller player as lebron did.

Jordan also shut down gary payton, asking to switch, and did exactly what lebron did to rose. He also held Magic to 0-0-1, swarming him in a very important OT in the 91 finals (forget which game specifically but you can find it). You really need to watch some Jordan before trying to compare.

[bledredwine]

When the 3 point line was no closer to the norm, Jordan had only 2 seasons at 35% or better and the majority of the time he was at under 30% during his career....

Jordan was not great at everything

You need to look up playoff and finals series where he choose to take threes. I’ll be back later, but it’s quite impressive, especially considering that he didn’t really care to take threes. And in the finals he was significantly better. Fact is he was league average and Lebron below. Era does matter in this context, just as it does with all of the wide open layups.

36.8% is not significantly better that 35.2%...Good try too.And why when Jordan is not good,this is because he didn't really care,I mean c'mon...I am sure you think he would been good at guarding peak Shaq in the post

Now what Jordan didn’t do is let a player put up 35 points per game against him in the finals on blistering efficiency and then choose not to guard him the folllowing year in the finals despite KD playing lebron’s same position?

What do you have to say about that? There are only excuses for that one.

[Homer38]

You need to look up playoff and finals series where he choose to take threes. I’ll be back later, but it’s quite impressive, especially considering that he didn’t really care to take threes. And in the finals he was significantly better. Fact is he was league average and Lebron below. Era does matter in this context, just as it does with all of the wide open layups.

36.8% is not significantly better that 35.2%...Good try too.And why when Jordan is not good,this is because he didn't really care,I mean c'mon...I am sure you think he would been good at guarding peak Shaq in the post

They’re identical in the playoffs at .332 from three and Jordan better in the finals.

The difference is that Jordan didn’t work on threes and Lebron’s been working on them his entire career. So Jordan’s one “weakness” is as good as lebron without working or caring about it. That’s the difference.

It's misleading a bit, since we know LeBron wasn't the best when he was younger or when he was playing with a back injury in 2015 or a foot injury in 2023....But the rest of the time, he was solid as he was 37% or better from 3s in the playoffs 6 times in his last 10 playoff runs and 2 other times he was at 34%(and this look even better when you look serie per serie,he was at 37% or better in 4 of his last 5 finals)....He also doesn't need to be the best 3 point shooter in the world, just needs to keep the opposing team honest

[bledredwine]

Fact is KD straight up made lebron look bad that finals and exposed Lebron’s defense. He was helpless. The highlights even show the story. Durant balled on lebron all series.

[Homer38]

You need to look up playoff and finals series where he choose to take threes. I’ll be back later, but it’s quite impressive, especially considering that he didn’t really care to take threes. And in the finals he was significantly better. Fact is he was league average and Lebron below. Era does matter in this context, just as it does with all of the wide open layups.

36.8% is not significantly better that 35.2%...Good try too.And why when Jordan is not good,this is because he didn't really care,I mean c'mon...I am sure you think he would been good at guarding peak Shaq in the post

Now what Jordan didn’t do is let a player put up 35 points per game against him in the finals on blistering efficiency and then choose not to guard him the folllowing year in the finals despite KD playing lebron’s same position?

What do you have to say about that? There are only excuses for that one.

Jordan never faced a team with a player who could do that and be the 2nd best player on his team, while having a huge offensive load to carry.The cavs were also almost even to the warriors who are maybe the best team ever when LeBron was on the court but when he was on the bench....

Read on Twitter

context

[bledredwine]

36.8% is not significantly better that 35.2%...Good try too.And why when Jordan is not good,this is because he didn't really care,I mean c'mon...I am sure you think he would been good at guarding peak Shaq in the post

Now what Jordan didn’t do is let a player put up 35 points per game against him in the finals on blistering efficiency and then choose not to guard him the folllowing year in the finals despite KD playing lebron’s same position?

What do you have to say about that? There are only excuses for that one.

Jordan never faced a team with a player who could do that and be the 2nd best player on his team, while having a huge offensive load to carry.The cavs were also almost even to the warriors who are maybe the best team ever when LeBron was on the court but when he was on the bench....

Read on Twitter

context

You’re trying to call Durant, the guy lebron was guarding while he put up 35 ppg on higher efficiency than lebron and won Finals MVP in both series, tripling lebron’s clutch points the first time, the second best player on his team in those series?

Thats disingenuous and a cover up. There are no excuses as lebron guarded him plenty and was scored on plenty, just as durant put up 30 ppg on lebron throughout his entire career. That’s not good defense from lebron at all. When did Jordan allow any player to come close to that?

[Homer38]

Fact is KD straight up made lebron look bad that finals and exposed Lebron’s defense. He was helpless. The highlights even show the story. Durant balled on lebron all series.

Durant is one of the best one on one scorers in league history and the Cavs had a very poor defensive team....Jordan wouldn't have been better in this same context....Jordan did nothing in defense vs Bird in the 1980s too when Pippen was still in college....Jordan was a complete loser without Pippen...I'll stop there since you're too ignorant of the facts

[bledredwine]

Fact is KD straight up made lebron look bad that finals and exposed Lebron’s defense. He was helpless. The highlights even show the story. Durant balled on lebron all series.

Durant is one of the best one on one scorers in league history and the Cavs had a very poor defensive team....Jordan wouldn't have been better in this same context....Jordan did nothing in defense vs Bird in the 1980s too when Pippen was still in college....Jordan was a complete loser without Pippen...I'll stop there since you're too ignorant of the facts

Clearly you’re the one ignorant of the facts as you just used someone that Jordan didn’t guard as an example (you probably saw one highlight where bird guarded him, i’m guessing). Meanwhile, I stated facts and you made excuses. Longevity and excuses continue to be the theme of this thread.

[Homer38]

Larry Bird had 28 PPG with 8 assists in the matchup vs Bulls in 1986(only 18 FGA per game) and 28 PPG(on only 15 FGA) with 9 assist per game in 1987.Overall it was so easy on offense for the celtics in those series...according to your logic where was Jordan on defense?

[bledredwine]

In Lebron’s 10 finals, on four occasions, the player Lebron guarded (or chose not to guard at his own position in the cop out against KD) won finals MVP.

So in 40% of his finals appearances, Lebron’s small forward finals matchup won finals MVP. That includes Andre Iguodala.
Talk about defensive prowess.

And then you have Lebron guarding Jason Terry. So in half of his finals, Lebron’s matchup or player he guarded absolutely went off. The defensive comparison is so bad. Excuses excuses about the 1988 DPOY. No, Jordan was a better defender than Lebron and his achievements clearly reflect that as you couldn’t win DPOY in that defensively stacked era without being a magnificent defender.